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Old 01-07-2013, 09:55 AM   #76
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Hard tight fist with proper bone alignment, or a relaxed slapping loose strike? Would I rather get hit with a strike from a hammer or a whip? Which would I rather have in my atemi toolbox, and do I really have to choose.

Phi is hella right, I'd rather touch the wife (mine, Phi, not yours, although I am certain she's lovely) than punch out some Joe. I train for life, not live for training.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:45 AM   #77
Aikeway
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i got puched by karate and kungfu folks, no gloves, i.e. bare knuckles. none of them went in deep, i.e. you feel it inside your body, as when i got punched by the systema guy. his hands weren't heavy conditioned, actually kinda girly he was just flick his arm, and it wasn't looking much of a punch. man, i saw stars even though he droped his fist on my heavy chest muscle. one of my sempai said the same thing. those systema buggers punching are kinda strange. they hit you on one part of the body and you feel it somewhere else. and they hit from oddest angles. i used to hit wooden posts and things like that, but haven't done those sort of things for decades. my hands are girly now. i liked to conditioned it with regular lotions, since it tends to dry and crack. the wife doesn't like callous hands. since i touched the wife more than i would hit folks, so i would go with the lotion conditioning approach. and if i happen to hit someone, they would appreciate the good smell and softness of my hands. and they might even asking for more.
Even on soft targets, the hand strike or kick should be focused not on the target but an inch or more past the target.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:09 AM   #78
Aikeway
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Hard tight fist with proper bone alignment, or a relaxed slapping loose strike? Would I rather get hit with a strike from a hammer or a whip? Which would I rather have in my atemi toolbox, and do I really have to choose.

Phi is hella right, I'd rather touch the wife (mine, Phi, not yours, although I am certain she's lovely) than punch out some Joe. I train for life, not live for training.
I'm sure most of us would rather avoid an altercation when that is possible. Sometimes, in a life-threatening situation, one does not have the choice to avoid it (even by running). Including atemi in your aikido is a good way of trying to preserve your life and possibly your family's/partner's - and therefore "training for life".
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:15 AM   #79
phitruong
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Hard tight fist with proper bone alignment, or a relaxed slapping loose strike? Would I rather get hit with a strike from a hammer or a whip? Which would I rather have in my atemi toolbox, and do I really have to choose.

Phi is hella right, I'd rather touch the wife (mine, Phi, not yours, although I am certain she's lovely) than punch out some Joe. I train for life, not live for training.
some of my injuries ached when the weather changed. it reminded me of my youth and stupidity. the question is do you want to destroy your body first in order to learn how to destroy your opponent.

about the wife, i thought i have to go out your way and have a "talk" on touching. but since you mentioned your and not mine, then we are ok.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:23 AM   #80
phitruong
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
Even on soft targets, the hand strike or kick should be focused not on the target but an inch or more past the target.
i understand the focus beyond the target aspect. the pine forest association has a wanted dead or alive out for me on boards mass murder and destruction. what i am trying to point out is that the systema folks did something different. also, those buggers ability to take a hit and keep on going is just nuts. they changed some of my striking perspectives.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:31 AM   #81
Aikeway
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Personally, I'm training in aikido, not boxing or sparring, and don't see any need to "toughen up" my hands beyond what normal gardening plus the continual pricking of pins and needles in the sewing studio does....
Janet,

I would probably agree with you in your situation. Suitable atemi worth practising in your situation could include:

1. Snap kick to groin with top of foot (toes curled down) from rear leg (preceded by a feint to the face).
2. Grab both shoulders and pull your attacker into a knee strike to just below their navel.
3. If someone grabs you from behind - a downward strike with your heel to the pressure point beside the metatarsus (big toe joint) on their foot.
4. If someone attempts to grab you from behind-step back with right foot and deliver a rear right elbow to the solar plexus

These should be regularly practised and then followed by an aikido throw.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:15 PM   #82
Janet Rosen
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
Janet,

I would probably agree with you in your situation. Suitable atemi worth practising in your situation could include:

1. Snap kick to groin with top of foot (toes curled down) from rear leg (preceded by a feint to the face).
2. Grab both shoulders and pull your attacker into a knee strike to just below their navel.
3. If someone grabs you from behind - a downward strike with your heel to the pressure point beside the metatarsus (big toe joint) on their foot.
4. If someone attempts to grab you from behind-step back with right foot and deliver a rear right elbow to the solar plexus

These should be regularly practised and then followed by an aikido throw.
I'm from Brooklyn and have no qualms about doing wahat has to be done; however our approaches to aikido and how/why we train are clearly very different - but thank you for the suggestions.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:12 PM   #83
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
I'm sure most of us would rather avoid an altercation when that is possible. Sometimes, in a life-threatening situation, one does not have the choice to avoid it (even by running). Including atemi in your aikido is a good way of trying to preserve your life and possibly your family's/partner's - and therefore "training for life".
I never have the option to run, unless I am attacked by an inanimate, immobile object. I dont have it in the Nike-do, so I put it in the aikido. Dont worry, I know how to reach out and touch someone. I'm a pretty big girl who has been around the block a few times. I'd still rather not fuck my hands up any more than they are with making sure I can punch through cinderblocks. I can hit hard enough, when I have to.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:31 PM   #84
Aikeway
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

I don't think a small amount of hand conditioning stuffs your hands up to any significant degree. I think a hand injury caused by not having your hands conditioned is likely to give you more problems later in life.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:40 PM   #85
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Hard tight fist with proper bone alignment, or a relaxed slapping loose strike? Would I rather get hit with a strike from a hammer or a whip? Which would I rather have in my atemi toolbox, and do I really have to choose.

Phi is hella right, I'd rather touch the wife (mine, Phi, not yours, although I am certain she's lovely) than punch out some Joe. I train for life, not live for training.
Dear Krystal,
You made me nervous for a moment .Glad you do not punch me out. cheers, JOE.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:57 AM   #86
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
Janet,

I would probably agree with you in your situation. Suitable atemi worth practising in your situation could include:

1. Snap kick to groin with top of foot (toes curled down) from rear leg (preceded by a feint to the face).
2. Grab both shoulders and pull your attacker into a knee strike to just below their navel.
3. If someone grabs you from behind - a downward strike with your heel to the pressure point beside the metatarsus (big toe joint) on their foot.
4. If someone attempts to grab you from behind-step back with right foot and deliver a rear right elbow to the solar plexus

These should be regularly practised and then followed by an aikido throw.
Why the right foot? I am far stronger on my left side, I'm going left. And for self defense, I prefer to remove the eyes, knees, and blood flow to the brain as quickly as possible but there are no absolutes in a self defense sitch other than trying to stay alive. I haven't found the groin to be an easily accessible primary target, and somewhat less effective on half the folks. Oh noes, I am doing it wrong.

Forgive my being blunt. Please realize that very many people, yes, even (especially) the women, here have a LOT of martial and self defense training and experience. You are not just preaching to the choir, you are preaching to the post-religion rationalists.

Tell me a bit about your experience, will you? Me? I am an old fat girl. After a few years of surfing introductory free two week sessions at hard style schools as a teen and a couple years of tae kwon do, in 89/90 or so I landed at an aikido dojo I have trained at ever since. I did miss a good chunk of time letting a mess I made die down, but I am back and have always trained with an eye to self defense. Good thing I do, because I have a second job as a bouncer. Gotta pimp out that belt somehow.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:05 PM   #87
Aikeway
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Krystal,

The step back with the right foot was mentioned because of the suggested right elbow, if left elbow used then step back with left foot. I use the spearhand (nukite) for attacks to the eyes. Spearhand is your longest range hand weapon. However, it takes many years IMO to develop a good spearhand and I practise on the canvas bag filled with lead shot for this. It's imperative that the groin kick be preceded by a feint to the face so that it is unexpected and the attacker does not catch it with his inner thighs. I now use the toe kick to the groin and lower abdomen, but it takes many years to develop. As you mentioned, attacks to the knees can be devastating, but I believe that a high skill level is required to get them to work, and I haven't been shown the exact angle and pressure point target above the knee by someone who is highly competent at them. Strangles (as I think you are referring to) are also effective, but aikido does not usually devote much time to their practice. I have been training since I was 10 years old, but I have cross-trained heavily in other martial arts and added knowledge from these other martial arts to my aikido base. For example, for the last 10 years I have also trained in BJJ as I found aikido did not adequately address the situation of when an attacker takes you down to the ground. This isn't a fault in aikido, it is a fault in the training methodologies. There are plenty of aikido techniques which can be employed/modified when defending yourself on the ground.
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:07 PM   #88
Travers Hughes
Dojo: Aikikai
Location: Gold Coast
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Interesting topic - I'm seeing a lot of "hit and then throw" type answers. I look at it slightly differently, due to a different interpretation of atemi. For me, aikido is all atemi (not just the traditional punch/kick etc, but turning up with the whole body and blasting through the centre). As a result of this, there aren't really any throws as we currently practice the movements (This is perhaps another topic, but related). Consider irimi-nage - the final "throw" is a case of turning up with th whole body. At this point you can either pass or capture as a choke or lock etc. Same thing for koshi-nage. For me, it's a passing movement in which your toe shouldn't leave the ground, and you basically wipe other other guy out by passing through his centre - an "atemi with the hips", as it were.
Interested to hear your comments
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:26 PM   #89
Keith Larman
Location: California
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Well, as a firm believer in my heavy bag but also as someone who's arms and wrists are critical for my work I've found myself increasingly working on my palm strikes. Since strikes for me aren't generally primary I do still want to be able to do some damage without destroying my hands/wrists. And for me that means practicing on a heavy bag to make sure I know what I'm doing and can deliver it with power and accuracy. So palm strikes to the floating ribs, liver strikes, as well as some head shots can be powerful weapons to have. And I don't worry so much about developing skin of leather and knurled knuckles some of my friends have from too much striking. I've known older guys whose hands were crippled from too many years of makiwara or even heavy bag work.

Chudo...

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Old 01-09-2013, 06:28 AM   #90
AsimHanif
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Our practice of aikido is very much rooted in boxing as well as weapons. Although most of our members do not train specifically in striking, we do try to be mindful of opportunities to strike as well as be struck. That said, it is more important in our training to be aware of the body mechanics involved in boxing, weapons work, and aikido.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyk2CXC7C5U
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:14 PM   #91
Michael Varin
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote: View Post
Our practice of aikido is very much rooted in boxing as well as weapons. Although most of our members do not train specifically in striking, we do try to be mindful of opportunities to strike as well as be struck. That said, it is more important in our training to be aware of the body mechanics involved in boxing, weapons work, and aikido.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyk2CXC7C5U
How is it that your practice of aikido is "rooted" in boxing? Beyond mechanics, how do you reconcile the two arts?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:52 AM   #92
AsimHanif
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Hi Michael,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'reconcile' but boxing gives me a vehicle to study principles that can be applied to my aikido practice. Conversely aikido does the same for boxing.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:05 AM   #93
phitruong
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
How is it that your practice of aikido is "rooted" in boxing? Beyond mechanics, how do you reconcile the two arts?
using Kuroiwa sensei's approach? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qt8DQ3ATek

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:41 AM   #94
Michael Varin
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'reconcile' but boxing gives me a vehicle to study principles that can be applied to my aikido practice. Conversely aikido does the same for boxing.
Reconcile: to bring into agreement or harmony; make compatible or consistent.

Which principles? Are they a perfect match? By the way, I'm not saying that they cannot be. I was just curious about your approach.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
using Kuroiwa sensei's approach? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qt8DQ3ATek
Nah. I said beyond mechanics.

That said, I've seen that video before, and do like it quite a bit. I think it has to do with the fact that Kuroiwa is wearing a suit and glasses.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:36 AM   #95
Brian Beach
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Reconcile: to bring into agreement or harmony; make compatible or consistent.

Which principles? Are they a perfect match? By the way, I'm not saying that they cannot be. I was just curious about your approach.

Nah. I said beyond mechanics.

That said, I've seen that video before, and do like it quite a bit. I think it has to do with the fact that Kuroiwa is wearing a suit and glasses.
It's a weird question because he references mechanics in his statement. You are asking "what you mean about something you didn't say."

Quote:
Our practice of aikido is very much rooted in boxing as well as weapons. Although most of our members do not train specifically in striking, we do try to be mindful of opportunities to strike as well as be struck. That said, it is more important in our training to be aware of the body mechanics involved in boxing, weapons work, and aikido.
Just as you can see the mechanics behind shihonage though the sword you can see the mechanics of maai though striking. Hitting distance is throwing distance. If you aren't in a strong position to strike you aren't in a strong position to throw.
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:40 AM   #96
mickeygelum
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Great thread...Striking has always been in Aikido. The nomenclature of atemi...shomenuchi/yokomenuchi/tsuki...can be misunderstood or misrepresented as they relate to hand/fist/elbow, or even more abstract knee/shin/foot.
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:08 PM   #97
AsimHanif
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Hi Michael,
what should I bring into agreement or reconcile?
As far as principles, keep posture, relax shoulders, be stable, breathe naturally, move your core, etc..
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Old 01-12-2013, 03:53 PM   #98
Aikeway
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

It seems Daito Ryu jujitsu relied much more heavily on atemi to vital spots to precede a throw (and also after the throw) than do most styles of aikido. I also understand that Daito Ryu jujitsu used pressure point manipulation of joints to a much higher degree than aikido. Perhaps Ueshiba Sensei considered that general knowledge of these parts of Daito Ryu jujitsi should be limited in much the same way that when karate was taken from Okinawa to mainland Japan for use by the general population, the pressure point emphasis should be severely reduced?
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:04 PM   #99
Brian Beach
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

I think has petered out but Do people think principles can be shown without mechanics? I can state a principle but I can't show it without mechanics. It has to manifest in the physical world or it's just theory, no?
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:33 PM   #100
Aikeway
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Here is a link to an interesting article which discusses differences a gloved fist makes when doing atemi.

http://everything2.com/user/Glenburn...knuckle+boxing
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