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Old 01-05-2013, 08:02 PM   #226
Mert Gambito
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Thanks Howard, I think that did help.

So Dan is teaching Daito ryu without the waza. That seems pretty simple to me.
Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote:
What Dan has done is whittled out the "waza" and focused only on specific body skills that stem from Daitoryu.
Chris, I restated what Howard wrote because there is a difference vs. your above summary.

Dan has continued to refine his approach to teaching these body skills through the years -- but, as has been stated many times, the skills (e.g. six directions and spiraling) are not unique to a given art or era, though it's clear there are different flavors depending on the source. Dan's source/flavor happens to be Daito-ryu, and he's loyal to maintaining those discreet qualities, given their compatibility with other Japanese budo/bujutsu -- while ensuring his method is applicable across the gamut of internal martial arts.

So, it really is best to just accept the non-denominational slant Dan puts on his method. In Hawaii, for example, a couple days a week, you'll find several folks with long-time tenures in Aikido, various other gendai budo, and ICMA's (e.g. taiji, I-Liq-Chuan, bagua) training together to make each person a more skilled and powerful internal martial artist. Most of the time, there's no kamiza, no uniforms, no ryuha-specific dogma: just a bunch of folks in T-shirts, shorts and sandals training at the beach in a palm tree grove with a common worthwhile goal. While training together, we seek and explore IP/IS commonalities among what Dan teaches, what we've learned and are diving deeper into within our respective arts, and what we've gathered from others, such as Mike Sigman, who've been kind enough to share their knowledge with us.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
What I'm saying is, how do you know that? What logical evidence, beyond Dan himself, can do some impressive things- tells you that you are going to be able to do what Dan can do by studying with him.

This is one of the major problems with the "IHTBF" argument when we look at it as an example of a teaching model. If you played football with a top notch NFL running back, and he told you he could make you as good as he is- how do you know he can? If the answer is a simple, "because I played with him and he's really good", you must understand there is far more to teaching/learning/coaching then having a teacher, who is himself, very good.
First off, the training models offered by Dan, Mike, Ark and Sam Chin, for example, are highly systematic: do X to achieve Y in order to produce Z results. OK, for the sake of playing Devil's advocate, let's say that the folks I've met who are purportedly Dan's students and can demonstrate varying degrees of IP/IS are, in reality, shills who got IP/IS through some other manner. What's not refutable to me are the results achieved by every regular member of the Hawaii IP/IS study group. Familiarity breeds group-think and conditioned response? Well, when I was in L.A. visiting friends and family last month, a martial artist who I hadn't trained with in three years pushed on me to see what all the IP/IS fuss is about. I'm really slow on the uptake re: martial skills in general, so I'm no poster child for IP/IS; but I'll never forget the spontaneous puzzled, bemused reaction I received. Then: "You're under me, but you didn't move". I'd tried to describe "this stuff" to this person during the past couple years from time to time, and it usually devolved into an exercise in talking past one another (albeit politely). So yeah: IHT-definitely-BF.

Caveat: the above-described interchange occurred with a long-time past training partner who has well-honed ukemi skills, and so this person was ideal for noticing subtle differences in my particular ability after three years of being physically out of touch.

As for more experienced IP/IS exponents: Bill Gleason, who met Dan a few years before anyone in Hawaii did, is coming to Honolulu in March. Let's see if the anecdotes about him match the man's actual ability (to my knowledge, no one's cried "bullshido" re: Bill yet). As for Joe's concerns about what someone with high-level skills (i.e. multiple decades of experience and vetted by multiple sources) can and can't do in a non-cooperative environment . . .

Quote:
I feel these statements are [especially the second one ] quite frankly tosh.Are you really saying that a kick or a punch by Kanazawa or Mike Tyson would have no effect here ?How would a choke techinique fail to work? Answers please in plain english if you will
. . . just standing there taking a punch or a choke isn't what IP/IS is about (as Dan says, you still have to know how to fight with it). In any case, here are experiences re: Yukioshi Sagawa of Daito-ryu made simple and plain by one of his students, in the event an interested reader hasn't come across this piece before: http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/0...zu-maebayashi/. An excerpt:

Quote:
The amazing thing is that his students (including myself) truly attack him all out. Sensei is 87 years old. This is unthinkable in other martial arts or sports. . . . In this art, which is generally considered to be the least practical fighting method, Sensei can always execute techniques on anyone who genuinely attacks him or seriously resists him.

The seniors who make these all out attacks on Sensei have been practicing the art for between 10 and 30 years and many of them hold high ranks in other martial arts as well. . . . What I am trying to say here is that although Sagawa Sensei can handle all these senior members as easily as one can twist a baby's arm, they are all men of an overwhelming ability rarely seen in other martial arts.

Sagawa Sensei can control these vigorous men with perfect ease 100 percent of the time.
Clarification: Sagawa had over 70 years of aiki-jujutsu training under his belt at the time the above was written. In light of that, I think it's reasonable that Dan paints himself as being within a continuum of experience and ability re: IP/IS, despite the pedestals often offered him here as one of the gold standards -- a status he's rightfully earned -- among IP/IS experts accessible to members of this community.

Personally, I don't care if Dan's skills are the same as what Sagawa had or are the aiki in Aikido as done by Morihei Ueshiba. Nonetheless, I recently commented about solo training in Hakkoryu bearing undeniable similarities to what Dan teaches and to what has been taught in Sagawa's dojo. If Ryuho Okuyama was a lesser light in Daito-ryu than, say Sagawa and Ueshiba (based, if nothing else, on degree of celebrity throughout the martial arts community), then who am I to think that Ueshiba would've gotten anything less from Takeda? And, to the main point of this thread, what would the opportunity to learn a proven method that develops ability a la what was described above re: Sagawa, that would've reasonably also been possessed by Ueshiba, be worth?

Mert
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:23 PM   #227
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

It's hard to not sound like a jerk when I say what I'm about to say. But stories are stories. I'm not saying that anyone is lying, or trying to trick anyone, but you can't tell much from stories. Since all this stuff started, I have received dozens of emails from people telling me about Dan. I have gotten glowing reviews, and I have heard some pretty ugly things, I take them all with a grain of salt. We can't really judge things by the story. Would I like to "touch Dan" yes I would. If Dan would give me that opportunity, I would take it. If not, I understand that too.

So, touching is out of the question here on the internet, and stories are stories. So what are we left with. There is an amazing inability to say what is happening. We still don't know how anyone is using words like "dantien" or "duel opposing spirals". And there seems to be a real desire not to share what people think these words mean. That makes me suspicious.

There are also lot's of rhetoric filled posts, that seem to me to be dodging the questions asked. Even simple questions can't have a straight answer. This makes me suspicious.

There is a group/pack like mentality in the way the people surrounding Dan talk. They get very angry very quickly, and are sure that everything is an attack. This makes me suspicious.

Dan won't let me, or anyone I've trained with come to his seminars. I always welcome my detractors to come train with me, I don't understand why he wouldn't do the same. This makes me suspicious.

Looking at it from the things I can see, here on Aikiweb can't you see why I keep asking questions?

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Old 01-05-2013, 08:52 PM   #228
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So, touching is out of the question here on the internet, and stories are stories. So what are we left with. There is an amazing inability to say what is happening. We still don't know how anyone is using words like "dantien" or "duel opposing spirals". And there seems to be a real desire not to share what people think these words mean. That makes me suspicious.
No desire not to share at all - I'll push this on anyone who'll stand around listening, but this really isn't the medium for it.

"We still don't know" isn't quite accurate - quite a few people know, I would say. I'm sorry that your past history with Dan has seemed to leave him without the desire to meet you, but that seems to be the way it is, you'll have to work it out with him - and I'm not sure that this is the best way to go about it.

It seems to me that you've had lots of answers - you just don't like them.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-05-2013, 09:11 PM   #229
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

What I'm left with is, do you want to share or don't you?

If you don't want to share, if you want to keep things limited to a very select group, then cool, but why talk publicly at all then.

If you want to share why is getting a straight answer so difficult?

It doesn't seem like you want to share, except in your own very controlled way, but that's not possible if you want to talk openly.

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Old 01-05-2013, 09:26 PM   #230
Howard Popkin
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Re: Vantage points

Hey, you don't need anyone to share, you already said you do all those things in your kids class. , good luck with your training :-)
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:52 PM   #231
Mert Gambito
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Re: Vantage points

Chris,

Here's the dope as straight as I can make it:

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Can you explain the structure of [Dan's] teaching format?
Dan explains and demonstrates the theory and intent-driven processes applicable to a specific internal skill, e.g. six directions, then students practice them solo and in pairs going forward.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
How is the way [Dan] make[s] power different then other systems?
The training model, and the discreet exercises and drills within it, are specific to making physiological changes in the body* necessary for achieving a given set of internal skills -- vs. being technique or form oriented.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Could you compare this method to something else?
For those more comfortable thinking within the context of formalized martial systems: I-Liq-Chuan, and to a lesser degree, Yiquan, for example, are systems largely comprised of sets of solo and paired exercises specifically aimed at developing nei-jing (IP/IS). (The latter, in my experience, makes relatively fewer explicit connections between the training and the physiological changes sought in the body). From solo and paired training specifically designed to develop IP/IS, these Chinese systems move to cooperative resistive training (e.g. push hands) then to free-form fighting. Dan's approach does not, to my knowledge, include a prescribed, codified approach to applying IP/IS to resistive training: rather, he encourages folks to take this on for themselves, and provides jumping-off points for doing this through semi-resistive paired drills that are universal to standing grappling (e.g. would work in budo randori, or push hands).

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
How is it unlike anything else?
Dan's approach is apparently unique in that it is distilled from Daito-ryu, yet is informed by and evolved to be increasingly universal by other IP/IS pedagogy that Dan feels brings value to his approach. But, it is not "unlike anything else" in the sense that the above arts, not to mention the Aunkai, Mike Sigman and others, provide sets of solo and paired training designed to develop IP/IS without dependence on techniques and forms.

Dantien is the mid-section of the body bordered above by the diaphragm and below by the pelvis.

* Dual opposing spirals? Here's an illustration from Anatomy Trains served on another site presenting a sampling. Feel free to buy the book to see and read about the full gamut. Simply put, Dan's and others' methodologies develop these features, which include connective tissues in addition to discreet muscles, and the ability to use them in concert -- for example, in opposition (since they're often in mirrored pairs) to produce extraordinary power expressed on one side of the body while balanced across the body (since both sides of the pair are in play), in addition to the ability to negate incoming force from another person. (Someone posted a link to a research study conducted on a taiji practitioner that couldn't resolve how these things happen from a western empirical point of view, so no use in asking here how this works.)



Now sure how much more plain I can make this -- and I believe everything above has been laid out before -- beyond trying to describe specific exercises in writing, which isn't going to happen for obvious common sense, if not legal reasons regarding honoring people's proprietary information.

Man, I've tried explaining how great an In-N-Out Burger Double-Double to an East Coaster who hasn't tried one. "Yeah, so my burger has secret sauce and everything you mentioned." As a Californian, you likely know my frustration! IHTBTasted.

I sincerely hope the (re-)clarifications I provided above were helpful.

Mert
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:52 PM   #232
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Hey, you don't need anyone to share, you already said you do all those things in your kids class. , good luck with your training :-)
I wasn't being weird when I said that. I was trying to answer your question.

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Old 01-05-2013, 09:58 PM   #233
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

So the "duel opposing spirals" are muscular connections inside of the body, and Dans method, is a way of using these muscular groups.

See that sounds simple to me. And I've never seen anyone else lay that out. At least not in a discussion with me.

Cool. Thanks, we can now start to work with this.

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Old 01-05-2013, 11:20 PM   #234
Gary David
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So the "duel opposing spirals" are muscular connections inside of the body, and Dans method, is a way of using these muscular groups.

See that sounds simple to me. And I've never seen anyone else lay that out. At least not in a discussion with me.

Cool. Thanks, we can now start to work with this.
Chris
I should just let you go off on your own.......but I will say two things.....1) Mert gave you some touches, but if you work them based on what you do now, how you process information now...it is likely any results you get will be disappointing and have little value as the model you will be using to train is not the model needed to actually achieve the expected results, 2) To really get your questions answered you will have to figure a way to get remove whatever is standing between you and Dan to get into one of the workshops....... I agree with Chris Li that the approach you have taken here may not be the best way to go about that.

Gary
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:21 AM   #235
DH
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Hey, you don't need anyone to share, you already said you do all those things in your kids class. , good luck with your training :-)
1. Chris teaches the skills that made Ueshiba a legend....to his kids!!!!!!!
2. Chris learned internals from an internal "expert"....in a year!!!!!!!
3. Chris said "This stuff is easy and it is already taught in good Aikido."
4. Chris keeps asking what a dantian...is?
5. Chris says....I....sound suspicious.

Dan
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:58 AM   #236
Howard Popkin
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. Chris teaches the skills that made Ueshiba a legend....to his kids!!!!!!!
2. Chris learned internals from an internal "expert"....in a year!!!!!!!
3. Chris said "This stuff is easy and it is already taught in good Aikido."
4. Chris keeps asking what a dantian...is?
5. Chris says....I....sound suspicious.

Dan
Yep, its all you
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:05 AM   #237
HL1978
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Howard,
I feel these statements are [especially the second one ] quite frankly tosh.Are you really saying that a kick or a punch by Kanazawa or Mike Tyson would have no effect here ?How would a choke techinique fail to work? Answers please in plain english if you will,Cheers, Joe.
No, no effect, less of an effect than if you punched some random person off the street. This is because if you punch someone who has built up their body this way, and you haven't its like punching a brick wall. The impact of the punch will hurt you, because the energy of the punch is returned back into you.

Thats not to say if you are the punchee you won't feel any pain.

As for a choke, its not that the IS guy is granted super powers and gains extra lung capacity. Its more like, you have a larger window to escape a choke, and can generate power from unusual positions that most others can't.
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:25 AM   #238
patrick de block
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Re: Vantage points

Chris,

I do not understand all this questioning.

In a class a technique is introduced and then you walk around. I walk over to someone, explain again, show it again, do it with them. They listen attentively (most of the time) and then do it. Nothing has changed while they are sincerely trying to do what you've told them. I've seen this happening time and time again with every teacher. Then you have a choice, you say yes and walk away, you rephrase, you try to come up with an image, ... at a certain point you have to stop since you only succeed in making them nervous and tense. It took me a lot of training to realise this was what was happening with me. Why is he always commenting, I'm doing it. Well ... You go to a seminar and the next lesson there's a talk about it, and someone tells you: ... and you think: hell, I've told you a hundred times. And you shut up, the important thing is that it has been learned. And I guess my teachers thought the same when I told them I made a discovery.
All people need talking, showing and feeling in various degrees to become proficient.

You wrote: 'So the 'dual opposing spirals' are muscular connections inside of the body, and Dan's method, is a way of using these muscular groups.'

The abbreviated original post ran like this:

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post

Dan explains and demonstrates the theory and intent-driven processes applicable to a specific internal skill, e.g. six directions, then students practice them solo and in pairs going forward.

The training model, and the discreet exercises and drills within it, are specific to making physiological changes in the body* necessary for achieving a given set of internal skills -- vs. being technique or form oriented.

Dantien is the mid-section of the body bordered above by the diaphragm and below by the pelvis.

* Dual opposing spirals? Simply put, Dan's and others' methodologies develop these features, which include connective tissues in addition to discreet muscles, and the ability to use them in concert -- for example, in opposition (since they're often in mirrored pairs) to produce extraordinary power expressed on one side of the body while balanced across the body (since both sides of the pair are in play), in addition to the ability to negate incoming force from another person.
Even if you were only summarizing the last paragraph, your summary isn't entirely correct as it leaves out essential information. I think you need the whole quote to get an idea of dual opposing spirals, at least, I don't know what to drop from it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:52 AM   #239
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I mean, if I'm a physics teacher with great didactical qualities, would you say I'm teaching Dave's system rather than physics?
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This is a good point, and one that seems clear to me, but I don't think I'm making myself clear to others.

I'll use myself as an example. I teach Aikido, in the Aikido I teach, we spar and wrestle a lot. We do lot's of hard physical exercise. We beat on each other with weapons. These are all things that are very different than you would find in most Aikido schools. However, I say that I still teach Aikido, because the vast majority of what we do is Aikido. When my students encounter other Aikido folks, they share a very similar martial cultural background.

There are subtle distinctions, maybe eventually what I teach will be so different that my student's wouldn't understand what Aikido folk are talking about. At that point I would quit calling what I do Aikido. So I guess Dan is the only one who can answer this- Is what he teaches, so different that it is a unique thing, or is it that the majority of what Dan teaches is Daito ryu (or whatever system may be applicable) so that his students could pretty easily fit in at another Daito ryu school, or visa versa.

With your example of physics, if you teach formulas, and ways of doing math and understanding the physical universe that other students of physics couldn't understand/didnt' know I would say you're not teaching physics. If you just offer some innovative ideas, but the majority of what you are doing is understood by the physics community at large, then you are probably just doing physics.
Well if you want a label for "this stuff", I think by the measure you describe here, daitoryu would be a mislabel: I went to four of Dan's seminars but if I'd go to a daitoryu class, I don't expect it would help to fit more easily on a technical level.

Dan calls it "Internal Power / Aiki", but you were aware of that ofcourse.
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:19 PM   #240
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Patrick de Block wrote: View Post

Even if you were only summarizing the last paragraph, your summary isn't entirely correct as it leaves out essential information. I think you need the whole quote to get an idea of dual opposing spirals, at least, I don't know what to drop from it.
Hey Patrick,

I think I understand what you mean. And I don't disagree with it. But we have to start somewhere. I'm not saying that this is all there is to it, but we have to get an initial idea of what is meant by the the term.

Saying that they are muscle groups, is a very general place to start, we can begin to flush out as we go. The problem I see with these discussions, is the lack of desire to get to a beginning place and go from there. This isn't the end of the conversation, it's only the very very beginning. If we can start with something simple, like "The duel opposing spirals are muscular pairs in the body, that can be used to great effect", we have something simple to start from. If we have a huge paragraph, we'll just confuse ourselves as we get further into it.

If "The duel opposing spirals are muscular pairs in the body, that can be used to great effect" is not correct, then we should fix that now, and find something that everyone can agree is the basic building block of our conversation. If we can't find something that everyone agrees on, then we're probably not all talking about the same thing.

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Old 01-06-2013, 01:29 PM   #241
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. Chris teaches the skills that made Ueshiba a legend....to his kids!!!!!!!
2. Chris learned internals from an internal "expert"....in a year!!!!!!!
3. Chris said "This stuff is easy and it is already taught in good Aikido."
4. Chris keeps asking what a dantian...is?
5. Chris says....I....sound suspicious.

Dan
1- Every Aikido school on earth (that has a kids class) teaches Ueshiba's skills to kids. That doesn't mean they are making kids into Ueshiba, it simply means they teach those things to kids.

2- I never said I mastered internal martial arts. I never said I'm the most fantastical super guy, I simply said I got the general idea of internal in a couple of years. I'm still working on those things, I didn't "become and expert" in a year.

3- The stuff that I think is important is available in most all Aikido schools (at least the ones I've been to). I don't know why this is a strange thing to say, that is what Aikido schools are trying to do, offer Aikido.

4- I have yet to hear how anyone means that more power comes from your dantien than from anywhere else in your body. Seems to be a key part of many IP peoples theory of use, yet I'm still not sure what they mean by it. I don't understand so I ask.

5- I'm suspicious of lots of things, don't take it personally.

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Old 01-06-2013, 01:32 PM   #242
Michael Douglas
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
...
1) Ask him to stand neutral, feet even. Place your hand on his chest. Then push him as hard as you physically can. If he moves, and not you, leave. I mean no movement, he should be able to stand there and smile at you
...
If I experienced this I'd be a convert too!

I find it very hard to imagine.

I've not seen video of anyone actually doing this without a stooge. I'd like to feel it. Genuinely.
Not 100 of I'd like to feel it ... but I'd certainly be willing to spend money afterwards.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #243
Mert Gambito
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
What I'm saying is, how do you know that? What logical evidence, beyond Dan himself, can do some impressive things- tells you that you are going to be able to do what Dan can do by studying with him.
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
It's hard to not sound like a jerk when I say what I'm about to say. But stories are stories. I'm not saying that anyone is lying, or trying to trick anyone, but you can't tell much from stories.
The personal experiences I related --- as an individual testing IP/IS against a control (i.e. an uke unfamiliar with the IP/IS training who had plenty of past experience training with me to establish a baseline reference prior to pushing on me last month), and as someone who is having increasing difficulty using straight muscle power or IP to induce kuzushi in all those I regularly train with in Hawaii -- are completely valid for the purposes of logical evidence: for me and for the person serving as the control.

You'll simply have to go gather your own evidence to satisfy your own curiosity and skepticism, as I and many others have done in the past.*

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So the "duel opposing spirals" are muscular connections inside of the body, and Dans method, is a way of using these muscular groups.

See that sounds simple to me. And I've never seen anyone else lay that out. At least not in a discussion with me.
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
If "The duel opposing spirals are muscular pairs in the body, that can be used to great effect" is not correct, then we should fix that now
To fix it, please go back to what I originally wrote. As Gary and David have cautioned, you have oversimplified the simplified explanation -- in fact, changed it -- to the point your summary is fundamentally inaccurate.

This is one of several AikiWeb threads discussing the trains as spirals and what they anatomically contain; and there are many posts throughout AikiWeb in which Dan and others discuss how developing these trains/spirals across the body is vital to developing IP/IS:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20239
.

Dual opposing spirals in motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj6UaEay5Lg (I don't know if a link to this particular video has been posted on AikiWeb before, but others demonstrating spiraling movement / expression have been).

Quote:
Cool. Thanks, we can now start to work with this.
Truly, this is the precipice where further online discussion will just generate further errors in interpretation; and that would be a dis-service to you, and others on the fence who feel they're getting the gist.

It's really this simple and sobering: modern Aikido and modern karate, for example, are more similar to one another than the IP/IS-dedicated training methodologies (as a group of systems) are to modern Aikido (despite Dan's approach's extreme compatibility with Aikido due to the Daito-ryu connection). I would never recommend a karateka, of any level of experience, try to learn Aikido from online forums and video clips, nor vice versa. If, say, a Shotokan karateka I know who lives in Fresno wanted to learn Aikido, would I be better off referring him/her to AikiWeb and YouTube, then encouraging them to start practicing tobi ukemi -- or would it be infinitely preferable to refer this person to you after he/she had done online research?

* So, if you want to finish connecting the dots re: IP/IS, go learn from an appropriate teacher. Notice, I didn't say go kicking tires for a few minutes or a couple hours: my specific recommendation to you is to attend an entire ILC seminar with Sam Chin. He'll likely spend most of the first half of the first day of an introductory seminar going over ILC's IP/IS theory (which should dovetail to a comfortable degree with your ICMA knowledge), then have attendees systematically apply that theory via solo and paired training. Along the way, you'll have plenty of opportunities for hands-on time with him, and he is extremely patient with newbies. He also explains how his system is applicable to different "faces"/"masks"/systems of the martial arts, including Aikido. ILC is so elegantly systematic, and Sam is such a fine communicator (despite English not being his first language), that I feel you, and anyone else looking for a well-packaged end-to-end (i.e. theory to self development to free-form application) intro to dedicated IP/IS training, would be best served going this route.

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 01-06-2013 at 02:11 PM.

Mert
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:15 PM   #244
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

I can understand if I made an incorrect statement. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

I'm just asking for a simple place to start. I'll look at the material you've provided.

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Old 01-06-2013, 02:35 PM   #245
patrick de block
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Re: Vantage points

Chris,

A simple question: have you read 'Hidden in Plain Sight' by Ellis Amdur?
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:56 PM   #246
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
But has it also occurred to you that there are more than just one individual with such skills, and who openly teach them?
A fair number of them, but maybe not teaching openly.

Quote:
Let's step out of the kingdom of the one-eyed fellow, and into the forest where trees fall but there is no-one there to hear them. Just because these other individuals do not post on AikiWeb, does it mean they don't exist?
Yes, they exist.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-06-2013 at 03:11 PM.

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Old 01-06-2013, 04:05 PM   #247
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Patrick de Block wrote: View Post
Chris,

A simple question: have you read 'Hidden in Plain Sight' by Ellis Amdur?
Yes.

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Old 01-06-2013, 04:13 PM   #248
Gary David
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
..................

I'm just asking for a simple place to start. .............
Chris
At this point....with everything that has been said........all things considered.....I agree that your best place to start would be a weekend with Sam Chin. You would have an opportunity to feel what is being talked about from the I Liq Chuan perspective, which dovetails into the areas that the IP/IS folks talk to on here.....You need to go get hands on, to figure out the areas that dovetail......otherwise your model will never adapt and no amount of information you get here will be of any help.

Gary
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:40 AM   #249
Mert Gambito
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote:
. . .Gary and David . . .
Sorry folks: should've typed "Gary and Patrick" above, re: the clarifications provided to Chris H. pertaining to the simplified definition of dual opposing spirals.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I can understand if I made an incorrect statement. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.
Fair enough, Chris. I realize that a lot of information gets packed into these threads, and in individual posts sometimes, time is limited to review and process the information, and key details can get blurred or missed along the way (my correction above in this post being a case in point).

OK, first off, the details re: IP/IS training over which people are being nit-picky above truly do matter that much. If the interpretations, and with it the understandings of a pair of standalone statements of fact can change as much as they did earlier in this thread -- in just one iteration/layer of communication online -- then it's clear it makes no sense to delve any deeper through this or any other written medium regarding anything more technical or detailed (e.g. step-by-step how-to's) because of the virtual certainty of leading one's self and others astray. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that unknowingly leading one's self astray when new to a given subject matter is a natural, inevitable part of the learning process -- even when there's capable face-to-face instruction available: whether that instruction is in IP/IS, Aikido kokyu-dosa, ballroom dance, chiropractic medicine, or any other endeavor that requires intensive yet subtle mental and physical self development required to create profound physical and mental interactions with another human being (any IP/IS practitioner who isn't nodding is for sure full of it).

Quote:
I'm just asking for a simple place to start. I'll look at the material you've provided.
Thank you for taking the time to earnestly and carefully consider these recommendations.

When you get a copy of Anatomy Trains, pay attention to the pages toward the back of the book that map the meridians of the body utilized in traditional Asian medicine (TAM) to their corresponding anatomy trains. ILC utilizes the TAM meridians, including the traditional grouping of the meridians into "yin" and "yang" categories, to describe which parts of the body are utilized in which particular manners during a given exercise/drill. (Note: references to the meridians, while fundamental to the theory and practice in ILC, are not utilized in all IP/IS training methodologies, including Dan's. Those of us who've been formally exposed to both methodologies by Sam and Dan can reconcile this, but it makes no sense to slice and dice the reasons why via the internet for the reason stated above.)

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote:
You would have an opportunity to feel what is being talked about from the I Liq Chuan perspective, which dovetails into the areas that the IP/IS folks talk to on here . . .
To further clarify and recap, reviewing Anatomy Trains and attending an ILC seminar with Sam makes sense for those with a technical western bent because there's a logical progression from:
  • conventional martial movement that can be described in terms of the long-standing traditional western anatomical and physiological model (i.e. muscles, bones, etc. as separate entities performing their respective work functions within the body) to . . .
  • anatomy trains (i.e. groupings of integrated motivating and connecting tissues that span, interconnect and motivate large portions of the body from head to toe) . . .
  • which can be mapped to the meridians that provide a roadmap to the body in traditional Asian medicine, via a publicly available reference (i.e. Anatomy Trains) . . .
  • which are a key part of the nomeclature utilized in ILC: a proven method for achieving IP/IS (note that Sam Chin will discuss "yin muscle" vs. "yang muscle", but he refers to these in terms of portions of the body [i.e. meridians or groups of meridians], vs. as discreet muscles or groupings of muscles in the western sense) . . .
  • the results of which can be experienced first hand during the seminar to clarify how the practice translates into power out, negation of power in, and other nuances of application.
Straightforward. Logical. Accessible. Proven. (= S.L.A.P. ) -- and therefore, returning to the original thrust of this thread: absolutely worth the investment in time and money.

Mert
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:22 AM   #250
sorokod
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post

* Dual opposing spirals? Here's an illustration from Anatomy Trains served on another site presenting a sampling. Feel free to buy the book to see and read about the full gamut. Simply put, Dan's and others' methodologies develop these features, which include connective tissues in addition to discreet muscles, and the ability to use them in concert -- for example, in opposition (since they're often in mirrored pairs) to produce extraordinary power expressed on one side of the body while balanced across the body (since both sides of the pair are in play), in addition to the ability to negate incoming force from another person. (Someone posted a link to a research study conducted on a taiji practitioner that couldn't resolve how these things happen from a western empirical point of view, so no use in asking here how this works.)
....
The "Anatomy Trains" reference sounded familiar - I managed to dig this up http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=11.

See also:

Quote:
"Compared to the power of muscle contraction, fascia power barely even registers."
-- http://saveyourself.ca/articles/does-fascia-matter.php

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