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Old 01-05-2013, 11:59 AM   #201
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

Also I'd like to clear up a point. I'm not trying to say that Dan is holding anything back. I am also not saying that Dan doesn't understand his own stuff.

What I'm saying is, how do you know that? What logical evidence, beyond Dan himself, can do some impressive things- tells you that you are going to be able to do what Dan can do by studying with him.

This is one of the major problems with the "IHTBF" argument when we look at it as an example of a teaching model. If you played football with a top notch NFL running back, and he told you he could make you as good as he is- how do you know he can? If the answer is a simple, "because I played with him and he's really good", you must understand there is far more to teaching/learning/coaching then having a teacher, who is himself, very good.

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Old 01-05-2013, 12:21 PM   #202
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Dan,
Look it's simple. I'm asking you a single question- do you teach your own system, or do you teach someone else's system? You can replace the word "system" with "approach" or whatever word you choose to describe what it is you are teaching. Or do you teach another system, like Daito ryu, or Aikido, or something that's main points come from someone else.

For example, I teach Aikido. I have lot's of things that I do differently then other Aikido teachers, but most of what I teach is what you would find in many other Aikido schools. I teach someone else's system.

Living in both worlds can be done, but you need to be clear with people about what you are doing. So do you teach your own system or do you teach someone else's?
Hi Chris
No it is NOT this simple. You have jumped around to so many points (all of them with seriously negative connotations) that we cannot seem to follow any line of discussion to a conclusion. I say its you, you say its me.
I respect a lot of what you are trying to do with your Aikido, even if I disagree with some of your approaches and conclusions, I still respect the experimentation and search. I have said this about you when you were not in the room and I am saying it here,
Lets part here in peace.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-05-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:25 PM   #203
Howard Popkin
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Dan,
Look it's simple. I'm asking you a single question- do you teach your own system, or do you teach someone else's system? You can replace the word "system" with "approach" or whatever word you choose to describe what it is you are teaching. Or do you teach another system, like Daito ryu, or Aikido, or something that's main points come from someone else.

For example, I teach Aikido. I have lot's of things that I do differently then other Aikido teachers, but most of what I teach is what you would find in many other Aikido schools. I teach someone else's system.

Living in both worlds can be done, but you need to be clear with people about what you are doing. So do you teach your own system or do you teach someone else's?
Hey Chris,

I think I can explain this. Is Saotome doing Aikido ? Is Yamada doing Aikido ? Is Chiba doing Aikido ?

I believe that most people would say yes to all three, but would clarify it by saying they each have special areas that they focused on because Aikido is such a broad system that it is difficult to focus on all aspects. (Especially if you throw in Endo or Nishio)

Being one of the few people on this continent ( I believe there are 15 or so) that are certified to teach Daitoryu I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the core of what Dan is teaching comes from Daitoryu.

In my very humble opinion, What Dan has done is whittled out the "waza" and focused only on specific body skills that stem from Daitoryu. Those body skills are the core of the art. Their development creates Daitoryu "AIKI". If does not create the type of blending that you showed on your football video. Nor does it create the "AI" Kanji that O'Sensei described as love.

What it creates is power, stability(stationary and in motion), instant balance breaking, and crazy striking power.

Does that mean Dan is teaching the whole system of Daitoryu ? No, he isn't and doesn't care too. Why ? Because he has such control of his body that I have yet to meet anyone, Shihan or otherwise, including myself that can effect Dan's balance in any way.

Dan is teaching the very core of Daitoryu. Again, he is not teaching the whole Daitoryu system, but from my perspective, If you told me you had the worlds greatest wristlock or armbar, I wouldn't get up from my seat to look. If you told me that you could nullify anyone's ability to effect you, while making yourself more solid, yet free footed and centered, well then I might just go have a look.

What we have here is an argument about nonsense. Where did the word "aiki" come from ? Obviously the 60's - peace, love, harmony and energy....wasn't that from the 60's

Seriously, I'm training Jujutsu since 1979 with serious people and Daitoryu since 1986 under some of the worlds best and I'm telling you flat out that I wouldn't let any of them carry Dan's bags because they would have to get through me to do so.

I hope that helps.

Happy New Year !

Howard
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:54 PM   #204
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Re: Vantage points

Thanks Howard, I think that did help.

So Dan is teaching Daito ryu without the waza. That seems pretty simple to me.

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Old 01-05-2013, 01:52 PM   #205
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Re: Vantage points

And because there is no waza, it can be used anywhere.
And because there is no waza, any waza, used against it is useless.
And because there is no waza, his stability and power are through the roof.

Do I need to keep going? :-)
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:11 PM   #206
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Re: Vantage points

You are impressed by Dan, point taken.

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Old 01-05-2013, 02:12 PM   #207
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So Dan is teaching Daito ryu without the waza. That seems pretty simple to me.
Dan may have found it in daitoryu, but I don't think it's daitoryu specific.
I think that just like a daitoryu practisioner would describe it as daitoryu without techniques, a taichi practicioner would describe it as taichi without techniques (or forms).
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:16 PM   #208
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Dan may have found it in daitoryu, but I don't think it's daitoryu specific.
I think that just like a daitoryu practisioner would describe it as daitoryu without techniques, a taichi practicioner would describe it as taichi without techniques (or forms).
So it's Dan's own unique system/approach. It's a Dan Harden method?

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Old 01-05-2013, 02:57 PM   #209
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Re: Vantage points

Is it possible that this thread converges with this one: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22135 ?

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Old 01-05-2013, 02:58 PM   #210
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So it's Dan's own unique system/approach. It's a Dan Harden method?
I wouldn't call it a system. We might call it "stuff". I've heard Dan call it "this stuff", but never "his stuff". When I train with my training buddies we might call it "Dan's stuff", but Dan makes it very clear that he didn't invent it. It was taught to him. And he is teaching us.

I don't think Dan is the only one really teaching "this stuff". Other teachers, like Akuzawa Minoru and Mike Sigman, are also explicitly teaching "this stuff". I have no direct experience with Akuzawa Minoru or Mike Sigman, only with some of their students. From what I've heard there are differences in teaching methods. But even though the end result might differ to some degree, I think it's essentially about the same "stuff".

So I think Dan has teaching methods that are specific to him (but I guess that can be said about any teacher)), but "this stuff" is not his invention or discovery. I mean, if I'm a physics teacher with great didactical qualities, would you say I'm teaching Dave's system rather than physics?

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 01-05-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:22 PM   #211
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Re: Vantage points

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I mean, if I'm a physics teacher with great didactical qualities, would you say I'm teaching Dave's system rather than physics?
This is a good point, and one that seems clear to me, but I don't think I'm making myself clear to others.

I'll use myself as an example. I teach Aikido, in the Aikido I teach, we spar and wrestle a lot. We do lot's of hard physical exercise. We beat on each other with weapons. These are all things that are very different than you would find in most Aikido schools. However, I say that I still teach Aikido, because the vast majority of what we do is Aikido. When my students encounter other Aikido folks, they share a very similar martial cultural background.

There are subtle distinctions, maybe eventually what I teach will be so different that my student's wouldn't understand what Aikido folk are talking about. At that point I would quit calling what I do Aikido. So I guess Dan is the only one who can answer this- Is what he teaches, so different that it is a unique thing, or is it that the majority of what Dan teaches is Daito ryu (or whatever system may be applicable) so that his students could pretty easily fit in at another Daito ryu school, or visa versa.

With your example of physics, if you teach formulas, and ways of doing math and understanding the physical universe that other students of physics couldn't understand/didnt' know I would say you're not teaching physics. If you just offer some innovative ideas, but the majority of what you are doing is understood by the physics community at large, then you are probably just doing physics.

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Old 01-05-2013, 04:17 PM   #212
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So I guess Dan is the only one who can answer this- Is what he teaches, so different that it is a unique thing, or is it that the majority of what Dan teaches is Daito ryu (or whatever system may be applicable) so that his students could pretty easily fit in at another Daito ryu school, or visa versa.
He may very well want to respond to that again, but he kind of did already:

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How is it that teachers from Aikido, and Daito ryu as well as Taiji and Win chun tell me I am addressing the heart of their budo?
How can that even be possible.
From this quote: what he teaches is not a specialized "Dan thing," it is generic to these various arts.
From personal experience: the material once worked on will give you some familiarity with a new martial art. But, being generic rather than specialized, the material still leaves some art-specific learning to be done (like waza), so it wouldn't be considered a complete course in (for instance) Daito ryu.

So the material can be the core of many arts, while not being the entirety of any one art.

Ellis Amdur in HIPS likened the material to the liquid that fills many differently-shaped bottles.

Last edited by JW : 01-05-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:16 PM   #213
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
And because there is no waza, it can be used anywhere.
And because there is no waza, any waza, used against it is useless.
And because there is no waza, his stability and power are through the roof.

Do I need to keep going? :-)
Dear Howard,
I feel these statements are [especially the second one ] quite frankly tosh.Are you really saying that a kick or a punch by Kanazawa or Mike Tyson would have no effect here ?How would a choke techinique fail to work? Answers please in plain english if you will,Cheers, Joe.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:56 PM   #214
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
You are impressed by Dan, point taken.
i am quite impressed by Howie, and wouldn't hesitate to learn from him any day of the week and twice on sunday. ok, maybe not on sunday, i got to party too.

but i believed dan mentioned somewhere or many where, that he isn't the only source of IP/IS. there are other folks. human body is a funny thing (ya, some of you looked more funny than other, except for moi). there are only so many ways to do thing. the core/foundation isn't that many things.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:03 PM   #215
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
..and crazy striking power.
I'm just going to quote this part alone because i think this gets glossed over in every one of these conversations.

1. the shocking striking power
2. the amount of power (and stability, etc) that this method has infused into a human body.

..That there is even the *possibility* of building up a human being's power to these levels (that have been demoed) is at once exciting, humbling and terrifying. The power is actually somewhat terrifying.
Imagine..What vantage point does that give you?
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:50 PM   #216
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Re: Vantage points

See we're creeping away from the issue at hand again. We are starting to get in to the romantic views of what's going on, and not the actual learning process. This keeps happening.

For me, how hard someone can hit, isn't really of interest. I've been around some very hard hitters, and I can hit hard myself. If hitting really super hard is your main point of interest there are lot's of avenues of study available to you. So to me this is uninteresting, but a thread drift that keeps happening over and over.

To me it looks something like this"

Me: Can you explain the structure of your teaching format?
Other: It involves ways to make power.
Me: How is the way you make power different then other systems?
Other: It's a unique method that makes you VERY powerful.
Me: Could you compare this method to something else?
Other: If you felt how amazing this power is, you wouldn't ask such a question, it's very amazing.
Me: How is it unlike anything else?
Other: You simply can't understand, it's ground shaking....

This kind of drift happens a lot, and keeps threads from going anywhere. All I wanted to know was, is Dan teaching his own thing, or is he teaching a known system. That question gets skirted, and next thing you know we're talking about how amazing Dan's power is.

I guarantee, that if I felt something amazing from Dan, I would actually be asking more questions, and not less. Feeling something amazing, for me, means that I want to investigate it more fully, and not simply bask in the feeling that happened.

I'm sorry if this gets frustrating for you guys, but for me it's VERY frustrating. I asked what I thought was a simple question, and it gets pushed around, but never answered.

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Old 01-05-2013, 06:50 PM   #217
Howard Popkin
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Thanks Howard, I think that did help.

So Dan is teaching Daito ryu without the waza. That seems pretty simple to me.
Chris,

I have taken three Aikido classes, but I have played with hundreds if not thousands of Aikidoka on the tatami from ASU, USAF, Birenkai, and many other groups.

While I would consider myself an avid spectator, I make no assumptions that I know Aikido. I don't even know what I don't know about Aikido.

I would put out there this very strange statement.
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Thanks Howard, I think that did help.

So Dan is teaching Daito ryu without the waza. That seems pretty simple to me.
You don't have any idea what Dan can do. You don't even know where to begin when discussing his abilities. Please don't misunderstand me, I mean no disrespect.

The things that Dan (and many of his students) can do are not common place. Most martial artists would hear about them and call BS. They wouldn't think those things are possible. Then you put your hands on him(or them).

My suggestion is this (if you care to take it): you mentioned you had a famous teacher of internal arts, and you also mentioned you have a rough and tumble Aikido class.

Ask your teacher to perform these tasks. If he can do any of them well, he is a good place to start.

1) Ask him to stand neutral, feet even. Place your hand on his chest. Then push him as hard as you physically can. If he moves, and not you, leave. I mean no movement, he should be able to stand there and smile at you

2) If he is successful in absorbing your power, as him to do this, but bend him backwards first so he is leaning at least 45 degrees backwards and then perform the same test. If he moves at all, thank him for his time and leave.

3) Then ask him to perform this on his heels, or toes, yes still in a natural stance(shizen tai)

4) Ask him to place his hand on your chest and with no recoil and no hip twist(yes I said no hips), hit you as hard as he can. IF you are still there and your sternum isn't broken, once again we are talking about different skills.

5) You try this one, face a mirror in a forward stance - advance at least 10 steps forward with out your head moving 1 centimeter off the center line.

These are a handful of the basic skills that Dan teaches.

Imagine if you had this level of body control ? How would that affect your martial ability?

Do you think your Aikido would change ? Do you think you would need tenkan to dissipate power or were the circles or spirals happening in your body ?

If internal power wasn't a big deal to O'Sensei, explain the Jo trick ?

While not a swordsman, I have had bokuto locked with Dan tip to tip and I was immobilized. Stuck to the floor.

Again, not being disrespectful, I'm trying to explain that those are INTRODUCTORY skills that Dan offers. Most people wouldn't believe the high level skills that Dan has to offer.

I believe I have said all I can.

Yes, I am impressed with Dan AND his students, because I measure a teacher based on his students abilities. Dan has students training for three years that possess GREAT internal power.

I consider it an honor to train with Dan and his people.

Best wishes,

Howard
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:53 PM   #218
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Howard,
I feel these statements are [especially the second one ] quite frankly tosh.Are you really saying that a kick or a punch by Kanazawa or Mike Tyson would have no effect here ?How would a choke techinique fail to work? Answers please in plain english if you will,Cheers, Joe.
Joe,

I am not saying that Dan is superman. I am saying that Dan is so well trained that these things would be VERY difficult to accomplish.

Ask some other people who have tried
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:57 PM   #219
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Re: Vantage points

Howard,
Thanks for your time. I can tell you're very impressed with Dan. But I didn't ask about how powerful Dan is. I asked if he teaches his own system, or if he teaches someone else's system.

Thanks.

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Old 01-05-2013, 07:06 PM   #220
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Howard,
Thanks for your time. I can tell you're very impressed with Dan. But I didn't ask about how powerful Dan is. I asked if he teaches his own system, or if he teaches someone else's system.

Thanks.
I was explaining what Dan teaches. The core comes from Daitoryu. Dan took the skills and used them in Judo, Jujitsu, and lots of MMA, grappling, etc.

As for what the name of the system is, it probably has some terrible Boston accent, so I wouldn't even try to type it
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:09 PM   #221
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Re: Vantage points

Chris,

Are any of those skills part of your system ? If so, what do you call them and what methods did you use to develop them.

Thanks !

Howard
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:28 PM   #222
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Howard,
............ But I didn't ask about how powerful Dan is. I asked if he teaches his own system, or if he teaches someone else's system.

Thanks.
Chris
I still wonder at why you ask this same question over and over.....why is it so relevant to you when it seems a side issue to me? As to effectiveness or comparing it to something else...the best way to do that is to go to one of his workshops and see for yourself.......though that possibility may have gone down the road already.

Just a note here....to my knowledge none of Dan's students actually post here.....those posting here are just individuals who have attended one or more of Dan's work shops, including myself.

I am interested in your answers to Howard's questions....the questions do provide a small opening to what is a starting point, but only a hint at what is possible.

Gary
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:41 PM   #223
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post

Just a note here....to my knowledge none of Dan's students actually post here.....those posting here are just individuals who have attended one or more of Dan's work shops, including myself.
Andy posted a couple of times, but I think he got tired of it

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-05-2013, 07:43 PM   #224
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Chris,

Are any of those skills part of your system ? If so, what do you call them and what methods did you use to develop them.

Thanks !

Howard
I would call the kinds of things you are describing "Kokyu". We use stability drills to train this sort of thing. Lot's of having a person stand still while we push on them. I do this quite a bit with my kids class, it's really good for them. I've noticed that I don't teach/practice it so much with the adults anymore. I believe this is because if they are training the forms correctly, and asking the right questions of themselves, they will naturally figure these things out. I do however use these kinds of practices when I have a student who is naturally unable to develop this kind of power.

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Old 01-05-2013, 07:50 PM   #225
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
I still wonder at why you ask this same question over and over.....why is it so relevant to you when it seems a side issue to me? As to effectiveness or comparing it to something else...the best way to do that is to go to one of his workshops and see for yourself.......though that possibility may have gone down the road already.

Just a note here....to my knowledge none of Dan's students actually post here.....those posting here are just individuals who have attended one or more of Dan's work shops, including myself.

I am interested in your answers to Howard's questions....the questions do provide a small opening to what is a starting point, but only a hint at what is possible.

Gary
I ask questions to develop my understanding of where someone is coming from. This one got made a much bigger deal of then I meant for it to. Seemed like a simple question to me. In order to understand something, I feel the need personally to figure out where someone is going with a thing, what they feel that thing is or is not. As I start to get more clear positive and negative answers for my questions I can start to understand how I should be thinking about the problem, how the person I'm talking to really thinks about the situation .

I find often I can let questions go, maybe I asked the wrong one, or could find a better question to ask. However I feel that often here on Aikiweb, if I let my questions go, next thing you know there are ten posts about how amazing something felt. That sort of thing doesn't give me any information. So I find it bothersome. Sometimes I feel like I need to stubbornly ask the same question, because if I don't I'll never get any answers to any questions.

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