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Old 01-04-2013, 06:23 PM   #51
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

There have been several possible meanings of the word "aiki" over the years. There are older usages of the word then this. What is your point?

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Old 01-04-2013, 06:56 PM   #52
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
There have been several possible meanings of the word "aiki" over the years. There are older usages of the word then this. What is your point?
Well, you claimed that Deguchi came up with the word, but it has a history before 1922 when Deguchi suggested it, and that has been documented.

Takeda and Deguchi disliked each other, can you really see someone as egotistical as Takeda taking direction? How about people like Sagawa, who pre-date Ueshiba in Daito-ryu but still used the term "Aiki"?

FWIW, there are quite a few martial references using the word "Aiki" made by Ueshiba post-war.

What's your point?

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-04-2013, 08:26 PM   #53
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Notation from Horikawa's father in his training notes from 1913:
"Apply Aiki here."
Both predating Chris Hein's date reference, while also countering his point by it's use in a martial context while doing a technique. I don't see much of a counter there, nor a reason to debate it.
There are many other references Ueshiba used for Aiki being martial and I am bit shocked that people would ever even think that when he exuded power and controlling presence and used age old terms known for producing same. There is an actual list and they have been listed so many times here that I am beginning to wonder if people are being intentionally obtuse to make a point. I dunno.

Those higher level examples using Daito ryu and Chinese references both verbally, written and on video, should be a staple in the art. As no one I have met can explain them or actually do them to demonstrate Aiki I wonder if they still exist or are currently openly taught anywhere.
I can't think of a way to explain them on the net in writing that would be definitive, but it sure is important to at last refer to them and their immense value to anyone practicing the way of aiki or Aikido™. We continue to mention them to keep them in both correct historical and applicable context. Although I truly think his higher level work and his quotations are discussions that are only fruitful when we can explain them and then actually do them...in person. And... no one gets mad!!! Instead we laugh and have fun! Who would ever have thought? Martial artists from many different arts coming together and learning Ueshiba's aiki, using his exercises and terms and having fun while doing it.
Ueshiba would be so happy
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-04-2013 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:45 PM   #54
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, you claimed that Deguchi came up with the word, but it has a history before 1922 when Deguchi suggested it, and that has been documented.

Takeda and Deguchi disliked each other, can you really see someone as egotistical as Takeda taking direction? How about people like Sagawa, who pre-date Ueshiba in Daito-ryu but still used the term "Aiki"?

FWIW, there are quite a few martial references using the word "Aiki" made by Ueshiba post-war.

What's your point?

Best,

Chris
By "came up with the name", I didn't mean he invented the word "Aiki", I meant that he decided the word sounded good, and should be associated with the martial arts taught to Omoto Kyo followers. Here is a passage from and interview Stan Pranin held with Noriaki Inoue.

Quote:
Noriaki Inoue wrote:
Pranin: Would you talk about the name change from Daito-ryu aiki Jujutsu to Aiki Budo?

It was Onisaburo Deguchi Sensei who gave me the name "Aiki Budo". He said that "Daito-ryu Jujutsu" was not the right name for the art. He called Ueshiba Sensei and told him to stop calling it "Daito-ryu Jujutsu" and suggested that he should call it "aiki" instead. Ueshiba Sensei, in the beginning, was very hesitant to use the name "aiki" but later agreed. Later, I began to call the art "Aiki Budo". Until then it was called "Kobu Budo". Although Ueshiba Sensei said that "aiki is love", that is absurd. It is not that small. "A" is the voice of heaven. "liii" is ki. "Aaa" and "iki" are continuously in movement.
From this it sounds like Inoue Sensei was saying that Deguchi was the driving force behind Ueshiba calling his art "aiki" anything.

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Old 01-04-2013, 09:55 PM   #55
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Notation from Horikawa's father in his training notes from 1913:
"Apply Aiki here."
Both predating Chris Hein's date reference,
The date of the origin, and it's meaning are much older then this. Josh Lerner (here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21929) Pointed out that Aiki, was a 2nd century BC, Chinese word used to describe parts of religious rituals in Daoist Sexual intercourse.

Now you certainly don't believe that Takeda Sokaku was talking about Dauist sexual practices when he was using the word Aiki, do you? Well that's the oldest reference I've seen, so unless the use of the word changed, that must be what Takeda was talking about....

Or, possibly, language evolves. And the meaning of a word changes over time. What I was pointing out there, is it makes since that what Inoue was saying could very well be the case.

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:06 PM   #56
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
By "came up with the name", I didn't mean he invented the word "Aiki", I meant that he decided the word sounded good, and should be associated with the martial arts taught to Omoto Kyo followers. Here is a passage from and interview Stan Pranin held with Noriaki Inoue.

From this it sounds like Inoue Sensei was saying that Deguchi was the driving force behind Ueshiba calling his art "aiki" anything.
I'm not arguing that - but he didn't come up with anything, the term "Aiki" was in common in usage in Daito-ryu before that time. He just suggested they add it to the name, that's very different than conjuring it out of thin air.

Think about it, there's no way, IMO, that Takeda follows Deguchi's suggestions unless Aiki were already the core of his art.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:19 PM   #57
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

No one is saying anything about "conjuring it out of thin air". I'm saying that the word "Aiki" was appealing to Deguchi, who influenced Inoue and Ueshiba to change the name of their art from "Kobu Budo" to Aiki Budo to eventually Aikido.

There was clearly a lot of bad blood between Takeda and Deguchi, but there are also times with they were being very civil to each other. There is lot's going on there, it's hard to say exactly. But it's certainly not as clear cut as many would like to make it seem.

When did Daito Ryu Jujutsu become Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

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Old 01-04-2013, 11:30 PM   #58
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
No one is saying anything about "conjuring it out of thin air". I'm saying that the word "Aiki" was appealing to Deguchi, who influenced Inoue and Ueshiba to change the name of their art from "Kobu Budo" to Aiki Budo to eventually Aikido.

There was clearly a lot of bad blood between Takeda and Deguchi, but there are also times with they were being very civil to each other. There is lot's going on there, it's hard to say exactly. But it's certainly not as clear cut as many would like to make it seem.

When did Daito Ryu Jujutsu become Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?
About the same time.

All I'm saying is that suggesting a word that is already in common usage is substantially different from coming up with a new term.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-05-2013, 09:15 AM   #59
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Just a quick note that I have moved three posts by Ron Ragusa and Chris Li to a new thread, 'Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki".'

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22135

-- Jun

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Old 01-05-2013, 11:30 AM   #60
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
About the same time.

All I'm saying is that suggesting a word that is already in common usage is substantially different from coming up with a new term.

Best,

Chris
Alright, I'll be clear. I meant to say, Deguchi liked the word "Aiki". I do not believe that he invented the word "Aiki". But I do believe Deguchi was more interested in his own views on how the word could be used than what anyone else might have meant by the word. I would also like to say Deguchi's influence can't be easily dismissed.

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Old 01-06-2013, 11:29 AM   #61
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Re: Shiro Omiya Shihan on "Aiki"

Anybody have any idea if "aiki" was used in Omoto-kyo?

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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