Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-03-2013, 03:53 PM   #151
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 193
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So if it is just about "the work" where does it come from?
It comes from Asia.

In practice, it comes from hara/dantian and in-yo/yin-yang.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 03:59 PM   #152
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 330
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
................When most "IP" people are pressed about what they've learned I hear again and again, something to the effect of, "well I'm not really that good, so I couldn't demonstrate it, but you should see so-and-so". This, in and of it self tells me that the methods to train this body skill are not very effective, even if the body skill is impressive. After all the years of debate we've had, there should be hundreds of people popping up showing this stuff. Yet I only see the same small number of names presented again and again. Why would you devote yourself to a long training period, with so little proof that you are going to get anything from it?
Chris
It is not my place to share Dan's training approach, just as it was not my place to share that of Mike Sigman or that of my friend John Clodig....... Now the next time you come down to see your teacher Tim Cartmell let me know and if you like you can stop by and we can talk Aikido....see were we differ and were we are similar. That is the best I can do.....

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 04:08 PM   #153
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,638
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
It is not my place to share Dan's training approach, just as it was not my place to share that of Mike Sigman or that of my friend John Clodig....... Now the next time you come down to see your teacher Tim Cartmell let me know and if you like you can stop by and we can talk Aikido....see were we differ and were we are similar. That is the best I can do.....

Gary
I'll take you up on that! Thanks for the offer!!

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 04:08 PM   #154
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,817
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
After all the years of debate we've had, there should be hundreds of people popping up showing this stuff. Yet I only see the same small number of names presented again and again. Why would you devote yourself to a long training period, with so little proof that you are going to get anything from it?
just wondering if you are trying to convince yourself or other folks.

i don't think folks should look into IP/IS stuffs. lots of tedious and boring works for little return and might ended up with nothing. folks should just go and do what they please, which they will anyway. who would want to listen to aiki folks like Howie, for example, who can't even do proper aikido stuffs!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 04:18 PM   #155
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 330
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I'll take you up on that! Thanks for the offer!!
Chris
Remember I am 70......so don't hurt me or you will have to deal with my wife..........

Oh by the way...I look like my avatar though I smile more.....

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 04:28 PM   #156
NathanMishler
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So why would anyone take on this practice, especially if it's going to take a long time to learn? If you were blown away by the demonstration of "IP", then maybe you are willing to take it on faith alone. Maybe, if you're a very trusting person, taking it on some "authority's" word, maybe enough. But I have been down the "trust me" road before, and I would like to see some proof that there are results at the end of the road.
I feel you in some ways, but what's funny to me is that most "Hard Art" martial artists I know say almost this exact same thing about Aikido in general. Why would anyone do that, it takes so long to learn and who knows if it will ever be effective...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 05:32 PM   #157
Garth
Location: NYC
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 92
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
It comes from Asia.

In practice, it comes from hara/dantian and in-yo/yin-yang.
Ditto that, and to add to it, more recently:
Takeda
Sagawa
Ueshiba

Before Takeda
The Chinese "classics" that we now know from Chris Li and Stanley Pranin were being widely distributed thru Japan during the last century and the one before that.
Which gives the whole
Chen family lineage amongst a great many others
Before them
Boddhidarma when he visited China, so India
Pretty much the transmission of martial arts across all of Asia and other points
Its just who "didn't get" it and "who decided not teach it " or " who decided to leave it out or not teach it"
out their respective arts

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 06:27 PM   #158
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,929
Spain
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Ditto that, and to add to it, more recently:
Takeda
Sagawa
Ueshiba

Before Takeda
The Chinese "classics" that we now know from Chris Li and Stanley Pranin were being widely distributed thru Japan during the last century and the one before that.
Which gives the whole
Chen family lineage amongst a great many others
Before them
Boddhidarma when he visited China, so India
Pretty much the transmission of martial arts across all of Asia and other points
Its just who "didn't get" it and "who decided not teach it " or " who decided to leave it out or not teach it"
out their respective arts
Boddhidarma? Seriously?

Keep going back in time and you'll arrive at Alexander the Great invading India and teaching Pankration and πνεύμα theories to hindustanies. Maybe Arrichion, Polydamus, Dioxippus, et c. had Aiki. What about Achilles?

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 06:30 PM   #159
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,638
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Chris
Remember I am 70......so don't hurt me or you will have to deal with my wife..........

Oh by the way...I look like my avatar though I smile more.....

Gary
No problem Gary, I take your offer as a very nice gesture, and wouldn't do anything to disrespect the kindness. I may be in your area around spring, I'll look you up, and I'm sure we'll have fun, whatever we discover!

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 06:56 PM   #160
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
What about Achilles?
Obviously had IP everywhere but in his heel...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 07:01 PM   #161
Garth
Location: NYC
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 92
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Boddhidarma? Seriously?

Keep going back in time and you'll arrive at Alexander the Great invading India and teaching Pankration and πνεύμα theories to hindustanies. Maybe Arrichion, Polydamus, Dioxippus, et c. had Aiki. What about Achilles?
I am sorry Demetrio,
What was the gentleman's name that bought something to the Shaolin temple way back when?

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2013, 07:12 PM   #162
Garth
Location: NYC
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 92
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Demetrio,
From Wikipedia, ( I am sure this is not the only source of this material). Not really hard to find, and even though even though Wikipedia offers differing accounts of who did what , where and when,
The technologies when "felt" in person, then read about , sound strikingly similar. Was everyone nailing this stuff 100%? Hell no, exactly why there were standouts along the way to point the way.

Pre-History

The evolution of the martial arts has been described by historians in the context of countless historical battles. Building on the work of Laughlin (1956, 1961), Rudgley (2000) argues that the martial arts of the Chinese, Japanese and Aleut peoples, Mongolian wrestling all have "roots in the prehistoric era and to a common Mongoloid ancestral people who inhabited north-eastern Asia.".[1][2][3] Todd & Webb (2005) claims that "when Alexander the Great expanded his empire to stretch as far as India, he may have sown the seeds of modern Asian martial arts.".[4]
[edit]India

Further information: Indian martial arts

The Nataraja dance pose.
Around the 3rd century BC, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali taught how to meditate single-mindedly on points located inside one's body, which was later used in martial arts, while various mudra finger movements were taught in Yogacara Buddhism. These elements of yoga, as well as finger movements in the nata dances, were later incorporated into various martial arts.[5][6][7]
Indian martial arts were an important influence in the development of a number of modern Asian martial arts, particularly within the Indian cultural sphere (countries outside India influenced by Indian culture and religion) of Southeast Asia. Examples include Indo-Malay silat,[8] Burmese banshay, naban and bando,[9] Filipino escrima and kali,[10] Thai krabi krabong[11] and Cambodian bokator. Indian martial arts also lightly influenced[clarification needed] the various forms of Indochinese kickboxing, namely Muay Thai from Thailand, Muay Lao from Laos, Tomoi from Malaysia, Pradal Serey from Cambodia and Lethwei from Myanmar.[11]
[edit]China

Main article: Chinese martial arts
Chinese boxing can be reliably traced back to the Chou Dynasty (1122-255 BCE).[12] During the Spring and Autumn Period, the literature mentions displays of archery, fencing and wrestling by nobles. Warfare between rival states was conducted according to Confucian chivalry (deference to rank, attacking in turn, food sent to hungry enemies). During the Warring States Period, warfare grew bloodier and common men were expected to have skill in personal attack (chi-chi).[12]
Shaolin monastery records state that two of its very first monks, Huiguang and Sengchou, were expert in the martial arts years before the arrival of Bodhidharma.[13] The martial arts Shuāi Jiāo and Sun Bin Quan predate the establishment of the Shaolin Monastery by centuries.[14]
Indian martial arts may have spread to China via the transmission of Buddhism in the early 5th or 6th centuries of the common era and thus influenced Shaolinquan. Elements from Indian philosophy, like the Nāga, Rakshasa, and the fierce Yaksha were syncretized into protectors of Dharma; these mythical figures from the Dharmic religions figure prominently in Shaolin boxing, Chang boxing and staff fighting.[15] The religious figures from Dharmic religions also figure in the movement and fighting techniques of Chinese martial arts.[16] Various styles of kung fu are known to contain movements that are identical to the Mudra hand positions used in Hinduism and Buddhism, both of which derived from India.[17] Similarly, the 108 pressure points in Chinese martial arts are believed by some to be based on the marmam points of Indian varmakalai.[18][19]
The predominant telling of the diffusion of the martial arts from India to China involves a 5th-century prince-turned-monk named Bodhidharma who is said to have traveled to Shaolin, sharing his chuan style and thus creating Shaolinquan.[20] According to Wong Kiew Kit, the Monk's creation of Shaolin arts "...marked a watershed in the history of kungfu, because it led to a change of course, as kungfu became institutionalized. Before this, martial arts were known only in general sense."[21]

Main gate of the Shaolin temple in Henan.
The association of Bodhidharma with martial arts is attributed to Bodhidharma's own Yi Jin Jing, though its authorship has been disputed by several modern historians such as Tang Hao,[22] Xu Zhen and Matsuda Ryuchi.[23] The oldest known available copy of the Yi Jin Jing was published in 1827[23] and the composition of the text itself has been dated to 1624. According to Matsuda, none of the contemporary texts written about the Shaolin martial arts before the 19th century, such as Cheng Zongyou's Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method or Zhang Kongzhao's Boxing Classic: Essential Boxing Methods, mention Bodhidharma or credit him with the creation of the Shaolin martial arts. The association of Bodhidharma with the martial arts only became widespread after the 1904--1907 serialization of the novel The Travels of Lao Ts'an in Illustrated Fiction Magazine.[24]
The discovery of arms caches in the monasteries of Chang'an during government raids in 446 AD suggests that Chinese monks practiced martial arts prior to the establishment of the Shaolin Monastery in 497.[25] Moreover, Chinese monasteries, not unlike those of Europe, in many ways were effectively large landed estates, that is, sources of considerable wealth which required protection that had to be supplied by the monasteries' own manpower.[25]
[edit]

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 02:24 AM   #163
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have permission to say some father startling things that Peter has shared with me....but I wont. They are deeply felt and although they would directly benefit my talking points seeing them used and kicked about is ugly to me.
As I said before.
Can anyone -without an agenda- think of any positive reason for him waiting?
I bet not.
Dan
I hope I don't have much of an agenda, but I would simply say that it is possible that Mr. Bernath just wants to get better at the material before he presents it.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 02:44 AM   #164
renshin
 
renshin's Avatar
Dojo: Renshin Aikido Dojo, Horten, Norway
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22
Norway
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
There is another perspective. This perspective is simply "would it be worth my investment of time". So let's say, Dan has some ability that no one else has. He's far better at it than anyone else. But no one knows exactly what Dan is doing, even Dan. No one has taken the time to really investigate what is happening, and understand what makes Dan's approach unique and "better". So you spend lot's of time learning what Dan is teaching you to do, but that's not actually what gives Dan his special ability. You end up wasting lot's of time, doing something that wasn't actually what gave Dan his ability.

This is the problem with "IHTBF". So you feel it, and it's impressive, and you want to do it. How do you learn how to do it? From nothing I've read here I Aikiweb can I ascertain what Dan is doing. When asked specific questions, all one gets in reply are references to Ueshiba, quotes from the Taiji classics, and lot's of talk of how it's been done in "open rooms" or how almost 100% of people now think this is best. These things don't tell us anything that about why "IHTBF" and can't be described in a coherent way.
I understand your concern. And it could have been a valid one, if not for the fact that Dan's method - is in fact - a method. He will show you the effects of it, and then tell you how to train your body and how this works. He knows how it works - and he can explain it.

Personally, I was lucky enough to be at a seminar with mostly people who had done several seminars with Dan already. I was one of a few beginners. So we did a lot of stuff. My brain was fried after 6-8 hours of training each day and there was NO waza. One of the interesting things, though, was that I could feel the effects that Dan had on me, but I could also feel it from others. And I could feel that those who had put in time felt different from the other beginners. Not at the same level as Dan, but definitely something similar.

It reminds me of a seminar with Okamoto sensei, where he did a Fure aiki technique on me. He barely touched my hand, and my knees went forward, making me fall backwards. Then, his senior student (from Japan) did the same to me. It had the same effect, but I could feel his actual movement. Not so with Okamoto - his way was SOOO much smoother and (for me) impossible to detect before he had me.

It's not like you train, train, train and not feel anything, and then suddenly: You're an IP expert. There are small improvements over time, and you test each other with just enough resistance / push / whatever to explore what you have and where your limits are. Then, at some point, you will be able to fight with it. Before that, it take a lot of work and patience. Probably why that 7th dan didn't do anything in public - yet. He might in the future, but he's probably working just as hard as the rest of us, doing the solo work for now.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
These things don't tell us anything that about why "IHTBF" and can't be described in a coherent way.
Again, if you go to Dan's seminar, it's all there. His method is spelled out. He talks, he demonstrates on and with everyone, he draws diagrams and stick figures on large sheets of paper, he answers questions about everything, he has people touch his body to feel what's going on etc. etc. And did I mention that he smiles and laughs a lot? ;D So there is a method. It can be described. But he doesn't explain it online to everyone and his grandma.

I think it would be very strange for Dan to spend almost every weekend teaching seminars around the world if what he was doing wasn't producing results. I'm not saying everyone will get it - most people won't put in the time and effort needed. And yes, it needs some faith in what you are doing, too. Doesn't everything?

Yours friendly,

K. Sandven

Blog: My Life In Budo

Aikido Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 05:14 AM   #165
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,929
Spain
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
I am sorry Demetrio,
What was the gentleman's name that bought something to the Shaolin temple way back when?
If by 'something' you mean Ch'an Buddhism, well, that has been attributed to this legendary individual called Bodhidharma. If you mean martial IP/IS/Aiki, I think that is unfounded speculation.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 07:46 AM   #166
Garth
Location: NYC
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 92
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If by 'something' you mean Ch'an Buddhism, well, that has been attributed to this legendary individual called Bodhidharma. If you mean martial IP/IS/Aiki, I think that is unfounded speculation.
I meant martial arts of which IP/IS "was" a part. Just reading it from the book. Just wondering if you have any better speculation? At this point, it doesn't matter, people are beginning to understand how and why it was a part of martial arts. Or are you speculating that IP was never a part of the martial arts?

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 08:48 AM   #167
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 994
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Research will get you answers. If I remember correctly, there are posts here on Aikiweb that state Dan's lineage. Have you looked for it?
I know the thread you are referring to. Have you looked for it recently?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 09:56 AM   #168
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,929
Spain
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
I meant martial arts of which IP/IS "was" a part.
An how are you going to connect daoism (internal alchemy, Qi theories, etc) with the arrival of Bodhidarma, assumming he ever existed, at China?

Quote:
Just wondering if you have any better speculation?
Knowledge developed locally, information flowing across the Silk Road... things like that which don't need legendary people of dubious existence.

Quote:
At this point, it doesn't matter, people are beginning to understand how and why it was a part of martial arts. Or are you speculating that IP was never a part of the martial arts?
Mi opinion about this subject is thar IP has been/is part (in various degrees) of combative skills across eurasia for thousand of years, but is not the Holy Grail for martial awesomeness that some people claims IP to be.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-04-2013 at 10:04 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 10:10 AM   #169
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 994
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So dismiss me. Fine by me. I would even strongly encourage you to, Cliff. Stick with someone proven....by lineage.
After all Takeda Sokaku didn't have one either. Why he didn't even have a black belt!!
These things are important to a lot of people Cliff. Be careful out there.
Dan
Dan,

I wish I could simply dismiss you, but even if I stopped reading Aikiweb completely, some of my senior seniormost sempai train with you, so at best its like an elephant in the room with a tablecloth over its back, and some pictures, flowers, etc.

I guess one of the things about me is, I prefer following systems to following individuals. I have loyalties to individuals - but I seem to prefer training with individuals who offer me a path to a system that I can convince myself is "legit." I haven't been able to come to this conclusion with you and your system, because you are both uncomfortable with owning your system and making it "Dan Harden's IP Method" and you are unable to publicly discuss your training history.

I understand the latter issue...I don't expect you to share your training history publicly and I don't think that would fix anything. I think what has been going on in the past year or so is that you haven't strongly defined your own role in the martial arts communities you work with. You haven't provided a compelling story of how you developed the system that you teach. So others have started to define a role for you and everyone comes up with their own story.

i.e. it isn't that you don't discuss your lineage publicly - it is that your friends and associates do. And you haven't actually managed to get yourself into a place where your lineage doesn't matter.

Thanks for listening.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 10:52 AM   #170
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Dan,

I wish I could simply dismiss you, but even if I stopped reading Aikiweb completely, some of my senior seniormost sempai train with you, so at best its like an elephant in the room with a tablecloth over its back, and some pictures, flowers, etc.

I guess one of the things about me is, I prefer following systems to following individuals. I have loyalties to individuals - but I seem to prefer training with individuals who offer me a path to a system that I can convince myself is "legit." I haven't been able to come to this conclusion with you and your system, because you are both uncomfortable with owning your system and making it "Dan Harden's IP Method" and you are unable to publicly discuss your training history.

I understand the latter issue...I don't expect you to share your training history publicly and I don't think that would fix anything. I think what has been going on in the past year or so is that you haven't strongly defined your own role in the martial arts communities you work with. You haven't provided a compelling story of how you developed the system that you teach. So others have started to define a role for you and everyone comes up with their own story.

i.e. it isn't that you don't discuss your lineage publicly - it is that your friends and associates do. And you haven't actually managed to get yourself into a place where your lineage doesn't matter.

Thanks for listening.
Thank you for taking the time to explain. By the end of my response you will go back to dismissing me. I cannot offer you what you seek.

I would simply say:
You're still in the box.... that I have escaped from.
Why would I go back to systems that produce men that face me and want to change once they see?
Ueshiba got free of systems and refused to be trapped by them.It was the same with Bruce Lee. I refuse to be trapped.

As far as your lack of interest in me because I don't define our defend "a system?" that's fine. All I can offer is that at the end of decades of training in them with Asian legends.... men come and there I sit....waiting, and take their system apart and show them what is at the core of martial movement.

How is it that teachers from Aikido, and Daito ryu as well as Taiji and Win chun tell me I am addressing the heart of their budo?
How can that even be possible.
a long list of people here on aikiweb have flat out stated that the people who follow me are idiots and other unkind descriptions of their judgement.
I ask you. What if those who have come and trained...were right after all?

It is the study of the foundation of all the great arts that is the key to truly understanding them, and defeating them.
It is freeing and joyful and healing and it gets better as you age. But to my knowledge you will never find it taught...contained within in a system.

And that said...how is it that everyone who trains with me, can go back to their systems and train this while doing them?
Because what I am teaching is the foundation of those systems. Sometimes you have to step outside in order to really see what is going on.
It's called a vantage point.
And it is why I see...what you cannot see.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-04-2013 at 11:05 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 12:03 PM   #171
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,854
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
a long list of people here on aikiweb have flat out stated that the people who follow me are idiots and other unkind descriptions of their judgement.
Yes, I, too, would like to see removed from AikiWeb that kind of rhetoric -- of criticizing or putting people down due to whom or how they train.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 01:48 PM   #172
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
My opinion about this subject is thar IP has been/is part (in various degrees) of combative skills across eurasia for thousand of years, but is not the Holy Grail for martial awesomeness that some people claims IP to be.
Oh hell ya it is. Oh good Lord it most certainly is!!
This boils down to vantage points again.
Getting hit or kicked by it, or trying to throw someone who gets it, or seeing your naginata, sword or twin sticks completely blasted right through or controlled as if they had little meaning can be quite alarming. And traditional techniques, for the most part, just simply will not function anymore on someone with good IP/aiki. Hence the reason for so many of the legends or greats in our past.
This stuff made and it will continue to make....legends.
What on earth do you think so many teachers are being impressed by? A better way to make a quilt?
What would impress so many of the jaded, been there done that pros I keep meeting? This includes Judo, MMA and Bjj people as well.
Anyway, the only problem is you first have to *get it* to even have or hold much of an opinion *about it* in the first place. Understanding and getting this and then adding a study of (actually *martial*) martial arts is the best edge you can possible have. Period.

Most will tell you that once you start to see the pieces put together -you see it everywhere and you finally understand how it was missed by so many.
It is the foundation for all we do, right there in your face and people missed it, But after training it for a while...it becomes as Ueshiba said:
"Takeda opened my eyes to true budo!"

I can't tell you how many guys with decades in Japan have said the same thing about me or to me regarding this work. I take it all in stride...it isn't mine and there are others teaching it, so how can anyone get an ego about it? It is the truth of budo, but no single person really owns it. We need to see past the individuals and put our hands to the work itself.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-04-2013 at 02:03 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 02:18 PM   #173
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,929
Spain
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oh hell ya it is. Oh good Lord it most certainly is!! Getting hit or kicked by it, or trying to throw someone who gets it, or seeing your naginata, sword or twin sticks completely blasted right through or controlled as if they had little meaning can be quite alarming. And traditional techniques, for the most part, just simply will not function anymore on someone with good IP/aiki. Hence the reason for so many of the legends or greats in our past.
Too many legends, stories, folklore and narratives on our past. Embellished, aggrandised, poorly documented.

Quote:
This stuff made and it will continue to make....legends.
Sure. There will be more legends. More narratives, more embellishments, more aggrandisements and more poorly documented heroic feats of martial awesomeness. More folk stories.

Quote:
What on earth do you think so many teachers are being impressed by? a better way to make a quilt?
They became better than they were. How good were they? Compared with who? Under which standards were they considered good?

Quote:
Anyway, the only problem is you first have to *get it* to even have or hold much of an opinion *about it* in the first place. Understanding and getting this and then adding a study of (actually *martial*) martial arts is the best edge you can possible have. Period.
Period?

Fine. I'm not going to adress the rest of your post. You do not need to adress this one for your answer is not going to be displayed in my screen.

Bye Dan. Happy new year.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-04-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 02:18 PM   #174
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,638
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would simply say:
You're still in the box.... that I have escaped from.
Why would I go back to systems that produce men that face me and want to change once they see?
Ueshiba got free of systems and refused to be trapped by them.It was the same with Bruce Lee. I refuse to be trapped.
Dan I think this is the kind of thing Mr. Judge is talking about. So here in this paragraph you're saying that you've "escaped the box". You've left systems behind, and are doing your own thing. You are no longer "trapped" by a system or a lineage or anything from the past. You are an autonomous are free of old ideas and the past.

Quote:

How is it that teachers from Aikido, and Daito ryu as well as Taiji and Win chun tell me I am addressing the heart of their budo?
Here again, you're supporting that idea. But a small shift is happening. Here you are saying that that the "heart of their budo" is in what you are doing. If you are autonomous, and un-trapped by system, why di you feel the need to reference, Aikido, Daito Ryu Taiji and Wing Chun? You're pointing at systems, and using them are support for you points.

Quote:
Because what I am teaching is the foundation of those systems.
Ah, here in the last part of the post you've left a "backdoor". This is a rhetorical device, used to give yourself an "out". You've said that you are free of system, through out this post. But at the end here you give yourself an out- you say that what you are doing is the "foundation of those systems", in essence saying that you are a part of every system, because you are at the foundation of those systems. You are now giving yourself permission to talk again about systems, and being part of them. But you're not part of the systems- you are free of them. So why reference them. Shouldn't you just be speaking of what you are doing?

This is unfair. In the beginning you say how you are fee of systems, and have left them behind, likening yourself to Ueshiba and Bruce Lee. Then at the end, you say that you're doing the same things that all the systems do, so you are in essence part of all systems.

See you're playing both sides, that, I believe is the kind of thing Mr. Judge is getting at.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 02:59 PM   #175
Garth
Location: NYC
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 92
United_States
Offline
Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Too many legends, stories, folklore and narratives on our past. Embellished, aggrandised, poorly documented.

Sure. There will be more legends. More narratives, more embellishments, more aggrandisements and more poorly documented heroic feats of martial awesomeness. More folk stories.

They became better than they were. How good were they? Compared with who? Under which standards were they considered good?

Period?

Fine. I'm not going to adress the rest of your post. You do not need to adress this one for your answer is not going to be displayed in my screen.

Bye Dan. Happy new year.
Demetrio,
I hope you realize that everything you say in your responses or your opinion is based on speculation, as you so quaintly put it. As I stated in the Wikipedia piece, you can argue history and lineage all day long. I wasnt there, so at that point History doesnt matter, nobody anything said at any time is anything but speculation according to who? You?
You are correct about one thing, this technology spans cultures, languages and time and I am right about one thing, put your hands on someone with this stuff and arguments pretty much end, unless of course you like having body parts rearranged, which brings back to the argument whether it is athletic awesomeness or something else the 80 yo man was doing. And yet another argument, because the reason that O'sensei is one of the last recent people who people still alive have actually "felt", he is pointed to and analyzed and researched as doing this stuff. Either you think he was athletically awesome at 80 or those people were being "dive bunnies" for him and thats fine.

This picture is a man doing something called "Fong Jerng" in Thai, I think. In Chinese its called Fa Jin, pretty close right? In English its called power issuing. Same thing across three cultures and languages and thats what is important.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0165.JPG
Views:	73
Size:	82.1 KB
ID:	1093  

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Cool Rain Productions - Since 1976, the exclusive source for "Aikido in Training" Book/DVD Series



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Focal points for solo training azrielg Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 40 10-09-2011 12:42 PM
Aikido's Pressure Points Bruce Baker Techniques 21 07-12-2002 06:13 PM
Gashuko and Deja Vu PeterR General 4 04-30-2002 07:37 PM
Should we teach pressure points in Aikido? Bruce Baker Techniques 77 04-26-2002 08:33 PM
pressure points ian Techniques 24 01-18-2001 05:49 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate