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Old 01-02-2013, 08:02 AM   #76
NathanMishler
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Re: Vantage points

I could use some help in these discussions. I sense ( and by sense, I mean I have been TOLD DIRECTLY by various people ) that there is a big shift happening in Aikido.

Great! Awesome! Count me in.

Ah, but there is a problem I have. Much of what is said in the IP/AIKI discussions fly over my head, or around my head. While I find a lot of what Dan says to be intriguing, a lot of it feels like rhetorical questions, or questions that he obviously has an answer for, but I don't.

How to get them? Well of course, go and feel. Awesome. At first opportunity, I think.

In the meantime... maybe we should think about building something on the web to speaks to these things. When the IP / AIKI crowd talks about "Aiki" and its definition, and InYo, and other things ... it would be really nice to have a definition written down.

Or, when talk about O-Sensei and his solo training occurs - can we point to them and say what the were? Can we reconstruct them?

When talk comes up about the long lineages of thought that Uaeshiba subscribed to - can we point to those as well?

And if by "we" that means "I need to set up a wiki or something" then I guess I'm volunteering...

I know there has been some derision about people being "too cerebral" here, and I understand it. Things need to be felt and done. I'm just looking for some understanding in the meanwhile. Maybe do some of that solo training.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:09 AM   #77
Ernesto Lemke
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Re: Vantage points

Fair enough. (Of course, one can also point out the fact that a lot of threads have been dedicated to some of these very questions.) To sum up Hugh's points (a bit):
- What did Ueshiba mean with "Aiki?"
Is it (as "the IP crowd" says) a specific body method, presuming to date back centuries and spanning cultures and countries? (If so, it's not unreasonable to ask for evidence -- Chris Li's blogs have done much to point this out).
- Is it that AND is it also a reference to other things? (Ueshiba's "Aiki is love" comes to mind).
- Can it be that this specific body method was not passed on "successfully" to the aikido world?
- If not a specific body, then how is Aiki defined and does this present a problem? (Aiki extensions comes to mind).
- If rephrased or adopted differently or maybe perhaps even historically incorrect, in what sense is this a problem for a discussion format such as Aikiweb?
- The skills, as been claimed by "the IP crowd", are presented as physically superior to nearly every method within "conventional" (some say Modern) Aikido. The IHTBF argument seems to be a bone of content for some people who wish to discuss, even question the existence of these skills. IOW can these skills, without actual exposure be discussed on Aikiweb?
Some random questions….

Ernesto
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:01 AM   #78
renshin
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
IOW can these skills, without actual exposure be discussed on Aikiweb?
I really don't think so. Before seeking out Dan at your place, Ernesto, I had read hundreds of posts by him and others. It made me curious, but I had no idea how to start doing this myself. Or how it really worked. Even if there are some quite detailed explanations available in written form. And I was actually worried that if I actually did something, I'd end up spending a lot of time going in the wrong direction.

When I was finally shown this stuff and felt it myself, the things that I'd read made perfect sense. They were suddenly something tangible and something I could feel in my own body. I got a terminology for the methodology, and a path to follow.

Trying to learn anything about this without direct exposure to someone who knows it is, IMHO, not possible. If you do go to a seminar with Dan, however, you will be greatly rewarded. Not a single day has passed since last April without me thinking of this stuff and trying to figure out how it works both mentally and physically.

And now, the discussions here and elsewhere, and Dan's statements, make perfect sense. I still suck at it, but at least I know why and can discuss it

Yours friendly,

K. Sandven

Blog: My Life In Budo

Aikido • Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu • Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:04 AM   #79
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Who is "our group"?
because:

I think it depends on whom do you compare to whom.
I don't see that practicing with Dan is more expensive than practising with other teachers comparable.
I myself only conducted one class of a seminar throughout my life. The seminar was for free.
I attended seminars that where much more expensive than Dan's are.

For this is true I find it disgusting to discuss seminar fees in such a way. This would simply be impossible with other teachers.
And it is simply ridicoulus: I don't know wether you are used to inviting teachers from Japan or other countries overseas. Have you ever had to collect the money for a first class flight from Tokyo and a first class hotel in Berlin? Can you imagine what maybe twenty people would have to pay only for this? Thank god there are about 200 persons paying for the seminars plus we are using a part of the fees we collect in our federation.

Most teachers I know don't allow taking videos during regular classes or seminars. Even teachers who have released instructional DVD's don't like it or - even if asked - prohibit it. Some allow it only after having edited the video themselves. Or it's allowed to take a video but not to show it openly or load it up to youtube.

To me it's the same thing like talking about seminar fees:
No teacher I practiced with would ever discuss his teachings using a DVD or a youtube video. To me it is not only disrespectfull to demand this.
But what's more important: This is a youtubeish understanding of how budō is taught and learned. You will never get what a teacher has to give without moving yourself to get out and touch him. Going and get him is part of the learning.
Many teachers of "my group" are going to Japan to get their teacher. Other teachers went to Paris once a week for years.
I assume you also move yourself to be with your teacher(s). So why do you think this would not be appropriate in this case?
Dear Carsten,
For someone who appears to against dvd usage / video .dvd reticent, you yourself use video material on your webpage.If you are a student of Endo Sensei I would suggest that Endo Sensei [a Youtube contributor ] seems to be quite happy posting videos.
Regarding seminars I have probably went to more seminars than most people have had hot dinners.Same as running courses, no need for you to tell me anything about running /casing courses.As far as travelling to courses etc,my cv [should you care to read it ]will give you info.
As for 'our group ' a bit of Sherlock Holmes detection on your part , surfing the web, will reveal all.
As far as me being a YouTube warrior, posting endless tit bits on the Y/Tube, sorry you will not find much of me on the Net.I prefer to be elusive and I refrain from doing this.Deep down I am like a latter day Howard Hughes of the Aikido fraternity.
Dvds cannot replace hands on instruction training with good teachers. Dvds are only traing tools/visual aids.They have their place. Some well known people in the Aikido firmament seem to have little reservations about churning out for the masses Aiki material.Maybe its a charitable gesture on the part of the people who make the decision to publish this material?
Last but not least I am non judgemental in respect of course fees.If instructors wish to charge
a certain price for their services and people are prepared to pay a sum of money to attend the course, that is a mutual commercial transaction between the parties involved.Happy New Year, Joe.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:06 AM   #80
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
The IHTBF argument seems to be a bone of content for some people who wish to discuss, even question the existence of these skills. IOW can these skills, without actual exposure be discussed on Aikiweb?
I'd say one can't learn these skills via e-discussion, but some of the claims and counterclaims Mr. Beyer mentioned in his great post could be analyzed.

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Old 01-02-2013, 11:09 AM   #81
DH
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Nathan Mishler wrote: View Post
I could use some help in these discussions. I sense ( and by sense, I mean I have been TOLD DIRECTLY by various people ) that there is a big shift happening in Aikido.

Great! Awesome! Count me in.

Ah, but there is a problem I have. Much of what is said in the IP/AIKI discussions fly over my head, or around my head. While I find a lot of what Dan says to be intriguing, a lot of it feels like rhetorical questions, or questions that he obviously has an answer for, but I don't.

How to get them? Well of course, go and feel. Awesome. At first opportunity, I think.

In the meantime... maybe we should think about building something on the web to speaks to these things. When the IP / AIKI crowd talks about "Aiki" and its definition, and InYo, and other things ... it would be really nice to have a definition written down.

Or, when talk about O-Sensei and his solo training occurs - can we point to them and say what the were? Can we reconstruct them?

When talk comes up about the long lineages of thought that Uaeshiba subscribed to - can we point to those as well?

And if by "we" that means "I need to set up a wiki or something" then I guess I'm volunteering...

I know there has been some derision about people being "too cerebral" here, and I understand it. Things need to be felt and done. I'm just looking for some understanding in the meanwhile. Maybe do some of that solo training.
The questions were not meant to be rhetorical and where they lead should be quite compelling. What is equally relevant is that the undisputed and actual results I am achieving facing teachers on a world wide stage are the physical evidence of a much broader topic, one that can ONLY be debated online. In person...it's over.

I thought the startling fact that almost 100% of the teachers exposed to this work change and adopt it would be the....single....most compelling talking point to help bring the discussion forward.

The above statement has never been fully addressed. Chris Hein decided to tell us that he knows some people who thought the work (in this case, mine) was nothing special. Fine by me. I never said 100%. What he still doesn't address is the other 99%, or that fact that his "people" still failed to demonstrate unusual power...face to face. Why can I say that? Because I would have remembered them. They would have been different.

So here again we have

Talking point #1
What on this earth would cause almost 100% of the people going in one direction (many of whom have invested significant portions of their lives to it)....to entirely change direction?
I think that is a compelling talking point.

Talking point #2
Even if only 99% of those exposed change their direction...100% of those exposed....failed.


What does that really say about skills and teaching methods?

It is my belief that those two issues will forever remain un-addressed. They are not rhetorical questions. They should require an answer. The reasons they will not be addressed are simple:
1. It is irrefutable. Too many credible teachers were present in all those rooms.
2. It means that one must accept the claims that are associated with them:
  • There is a historical pedagogy outside of Aikido
  • A historical pedagogy within Aikido.
  • Direct terminology containing the same concepts across cultures and eras
  • Those concepts are known for producing power
  • There is a means to demonstrate the understanding of the above along with clear demonstrations of that power.
  • That the teachers in the art (in whole or in part) either don't know this, can't show this or can't teach this.

It is for those reasons I started this thread. I wanted to go past the never ending internet debate and get someone to address the face to face results. Long past the debate over translations and every other imaginable debate point (mostly pivoting around "My teacher told me,") the face to face results...remain beyond reproach. The one and only counter that remains is to somehow disqualify actual results. The results make a defining statement.

Of course I am aware that it is an uncomfortable discussion. One would have to be fairly dull not to realize that tackling these issues head-on was going to cause some distress for both parties. But what does it say when one side, continues to clearly demonstrate and prove their point, without anyone from the other side who is capable of demonstrating a counter in person. The points still remain and they are not our enemy, they are our friend, for they challenge us all.

In continue to look forward. Many now understand and realize that this work will move the art of Aikido forward into the West in the hands of teachers who now will have a much better teaching model for Ueshiba's work to give to the world. We can display power, place his work in the proper light, explain, teach, and do things in a way that Westerners can understand and that the traditional teaching method either cannot or will not, address or answer. It's a good time to be in Budo.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-02-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:24 AM   #82
DH
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Re: Vantage points

One quick note I would make is that the discussions are not nearly as negative as believed at first glance. There are complaints, but the IP/aiki threads are the most watched here on Aikiweb. Watch the numbers. And I have met readers (you know those "guests" at the bottom of the screen) from around the world in many different arts who have all pointed to Aikiweb as their first choice discussing internals. This also includes others in the Internal arts who come here to read discussions having given up on other boards.
Dan
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:45 AM   #83
DH
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Re: Vantage points

To a select few....by their own admission.

Why does this quote even exist?
What does it mean?
Why....did he, a student of Ueshiba have solo training methods to help produce #1. How does #1 contribute significantly to producing the rest.
1. Place the immovable body
2. In an invincible position
3. Release metsubushi
4. Until the opponent becomes
Non resistant...Shirata

Why was his solo work not taught at Hombu?
Why did he openly state that he didn't even teach it to all of his students (including some very famous ones), but to only a few. That statement is such a reality in Japanese budo that it has been quoted by many Japanese teachers, interview after interview for over a hundred years. Why then are we so surprised, that so many did not get it? Whats new? They told us up front. Would you be surprised if I listed four shihans and two Koryu sokes who said the same thing in 2012? It's just the way it is.

Again, why are we so very surprised that so many of us didn't get it? And now we argue with those who actually did, fighting with each other instead of helping support each other. No one else is out there helping Westerners get a leg up.... BUT the IP guys.
Dan
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:12 PM   #84
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
... For someone who appears to against dvd usage / video ...
You missed my point. Which is in very shot terms, that it's useless to watch a video without having touched the teacher and maye got oral instruction.

My personal videos on youtube are clearly not instructional and they are clearly not showing aikidō on a level that could help others in any way.

Quote:
Regarding seminars ... Same as running courses, no need for you to tell me anything about running /casing courses.
Yes, I had assumed that, even without knowing your biographie. You just sound this way.
The more I found it "astounding" and "not very good mannered" to discuss fees in the way you did.

Quote:
As for 'our group ' a bit of Sherlock Holmes detection on your part , surfing the web, will reveal all.
As for you compared "your group", I would have found nice to know about it. I then googled your name + aikido and that didn't lead me to "your group". So I let it go.

Quote:
Last but not least I am non judgemental in respect of course fees.
You compared yours to others.

Maybe I simply didn't understand you.
Maybe the language barrier is a problem so I got you wrong.
For sure I am oversensitiv.

I understood:
Comparing one's own fees to those of other teachers and pointing at them because they seem to be more expensive.
Demanding videos (on the internet) of a teacher instead of going and practice with him.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:50 PM   #85
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

The above statement has never been fully addressed. Chris Hein decided to tell us that he knows some people who thought the work (in this case, mine) was nothing special. Fine by me. I never said 100%. What he still doesn't address is the other 99%, or that fact that his "people" still failed to demonstrate unusual power...face to face. Why can I say that? Because I would have remembered them. They would have been different.
Hey Dan,

I'm not trying to get into an argument here, so please read my tone, as discussion oriented and not attacking.

The feeling of "unusual power" is a bad point of discussion in my opinion. The reason is because the statement is so subjective. For example, both Patrick Cassidy, and Tim Cartmell have done things to me that felt "unusual". I have done things to my students that made them ask me time and again, "how did you do that, how is that possible". I'm not in anyway claiming with this that Cassidy, Cartmell or myself have what you call "IP/Aiki" However all of us have demonstrated "unusual power" at one point or another. Something being unusual doesn't make it "IP/Aiki" it only makes it out of the ordinary for some people.

On another note, and again I'm trying to be friendly here; it would be nice if your posts were more concise. The reason I say this is because lot's of times when you post, there are so many things to read and then address, it's nearly impossible to fully get to any of them. If we stick to one part at a time, I think we'll all benefit. And maybe you'll be able to convince more people of your points, even over the internet. Thanks!

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Old 01-02-2013, 02:01 PM   #86
hughrbeyer
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Re: Vantage points

@Nathan, and others in the same boat, I have all kinds of sympathy for you and none at all.

All kinds of sympathy, because I know how frustrating it is to be told you have to put hands on and you can't (yet).

None at all, because there has never been a time in the history of budo when it's been so easy to get ahold of this stuff. O-Sensei searched his whole early life for it, and when he finally found it on a godforsaken frozen island in north Japan he abandoned his wife and children for months to make a start on acquiring it. Others left the US and lived in Japan for years, studying diligently, only to have their own teachers say that they never taught the good stuff to them. We are living in the days of wine and roses, by comparison.

And IHTBF isn't a one-time thing, either. I recently got back from a IS/IP seminar with a whole new understanding of the most basic exercise and how it relates to my Aikido practice. And then someone made a comment about the Asahi News video and suddenly I could see the same insight operating in O-Sensei's movement.

Partly this is because I'm a little dense. But partly it's because insights come in layers, and when you've progressed enough to be ready for them. So you have to keep going back to the stream, because the water you drink from it is never the same.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:17 PM   #87
Ernesto Lemke
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Re: Vantage points

Hi Dan (btw email wink wink)

Let me take stab at one of your points:

Quote:
Talking point #1
What on this earth would cause almost 100% of the people going in one direction (many of whom have invested significant portions of their lives to it)....to entirely change direction?
I think that is a compelling talking point.
Let me not directly address your question so much as in pointing out something else. Now I'm speculating here, but my best guess is that a portion of readers are simply put off by the tone. Knowing you in person, your statements don't strike me that way -- at all - but is there a certain amount of bluntness? I'd say so, but that in itself does not refute the facts.
Speaking of which….
What for you are facts, may simply be an opinion of yours to others. I have frequently wondered why so many of those shihan and higher ranking teachers are not forthcoming. Of course I can sympathize with implications of which I have no knowledge and that do not personally concern nor affect me. OTOH without the support of verifications, it does turn Dan's "facts" thus far mostly into "claims." (btw I'm not saying no one of stature has supported you: Howard Popkin, Allen Beebe, Marc Abrams, George Ledyard to name just a few, have done so directly. Indirectly it is an established FACT that Bill Gleason trains under you. I'm mostly implying that the Aikido community at large would, perhaps, be more inclined not to question these "claims" once credible Sensei X, Y and Z openly state that this "stuff" had them change their direction…entirely!

Thus, it first requires a willingness of people to accept your claims as facts. Once that's done…well…

PS
Email?

Ernesto
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:23 PM   #88
hughrbeyer
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Re: Vantage points

Cogitating on Dan's last few posts.

I suspect a lot of folks are going to read them and think, "There goes Dan bragging about how unbeatable he is again." Amiright?

If so, that's totally not the way to read the point Dan's trying to make. Instead of getting annoyed at the "tone" ask yourself--who is contradicting him?

Who's saying, "Nah, I was there, and it wasn't much"?

This is a way of trying to show on the web something that you would otherwise only be able to tell in person. Okay, you can't feel it in person--but all these other people have. Of them, who's saying it's worthless? Who *isn't* saying it's critical?

I can think of three (3) negative posts over the years from people who have actually been on the mat with Dan. Most of those, to the best of my recollection, talked more about not liking Dan (their prerogative) than not liking the skills. Balance this against all the posts from people who went from hostile or neutral to strong supporters. How did that happen?

Add to this: These people aren't running off to study karate, or taiji, or todo-ha-no-bujitsu-kata-reiki. It's not that they're looking for some other martial art which is going to be somehow better. They're enthusiastic about the work not because it's an alternative to Aikido but because they recognize something that can strengthen their Aikido. How can that be?

If these skills really come from the outside, if they're foreign to Aikido, how come so many practitioners think they're critical to Aikido?

If O-Sensei created and refined his art as the ultimate expression of a certain way of being, which he described as "aiki" do... why do these skills fit into it like a hand into a glove?

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:41 PM   #89
Cliff Judge
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
As for "Aiki" - Dan has just as solid an Aiki lineage as anybody posting here.
Dan Harden has a solid Aiki lineage? I am pretty sure you have to have a Sensei for that.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:43 PM   #90
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Dan Harden has a solid Aiki lineage? I am pretty sure you have to have a Sensei for that.
And he did - but you'll have to talk to him about that.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-02-2013, 02:50 PM   #91
akiy
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
One quick note I would make is that the discussions are not nearly as negative as believed at first glance. There are complaints, but the IP/aiki threads are the most watched here on Aikiweb.
I think that the number of "views" a thread has had is a better measure of how controversial and/or active a thread is rather than how positive or negative that topic may be.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:53 PM   #92
Cliff Judge
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And he did - but you'll have to talk to him about that.

Best,

Chris
I think that makes his lineage fail the test of solidity.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:19 PM   #93
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think that makes his lineage fail the test of solidity.
Whether or not he choses to tell you about it or not has no effect on his solidity. In any case, there are plenty of us with solid and public lineages that are calling it "Aiki", so what's the problem?

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-02-2013, 03:32 PM   #94
Ernesto Lemke
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Re: Vantage points

Phew, this thread is going all over the place while I'm busy typing…

Yeah, to what Hugh said….

But then also, I really wonder whether yet another support from virtual "nobody's" like me (not you Hugh) would really -- tongue in cheek - "convert" the Aikiweb readers at large (and no, not all of "us" are out to convert). Still, for the most part it's the Gospel of the individual's dojo that will dictate the policy, the sentiments, the understanding and thus, influence ones point of reference.

Take the situation in my country, the Netherlands, for instance. From all the Dutch attendees of Dan's seminars, we have had only one high ranking individual who, to the best of my knowledge, does not share/teach this stuff in his own dojos. There may be various reasons for this, I'm sure. Most other attendees where individuals not in charge of their own dojo's, some of whom have faced problems of no longer fitting in the dogma of their dojo or origin. Not all, but some. Many have a hard(er) time trying, wanting to hold on to this IP/Aiki thing as individuals but have not succeeded in getting their dojo buddies (or instructor) enthusiastic enough to either attend or be open to the possibility there may be more behind the horizon. I think it's praiseworthy that these individuals refuse to ignore what they were exposed to while not having the luxury of being able to train this with like minded people on a regular basis (apart from the irregular get togethers).
Only three individuals (myself included) are running their own dojo's and are focused fully on (or have integrated) Dan's approach.
So, it goes to show how little interest or exploration urge/need there is at "the top" of Dutch Aikido. If there is any revolution at hand, it's a very slooooooow one. I've noticed, throughout the years only a tiny number of participants on Aikiweb are Dutch. Even in my hometown, from the two other Aikido dojo instructors, both never visit Aikiweb. And the one Dutch Aikikai forum went debunked a couple of years ago due to a lack of interest (and quality control IMHO).

So, it is up to that particular individual who keeps an open mind. Who is also active on the internet and can differentiate what is what and who is who (which takes time). Especially so for those who have yet to step on to the scene and have tons of threads to sift through before being able to make any distinction at all (I think most of the fiercest IP/Aiki debates took place between 2006-2010).
What keeps these discussion also going, maybe, is that us "IP crowd" would love to have been able to have had exposure to this years ago. To the point of sometimes wanting to shout it (not too subtle) from the rooftops, we all share the incredible enthusiasm of the treasure of this "stuff." If I could go back in time, I would really have loved to had this been my first exposure to MA's. And I'm sure somewhere amongst the Aikiweb readers, is another (like I was at the time when I began) 14 year old not that different from me back then….

Now what was this thread about again….?

Ernesto
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:45 PM   #95
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think that makes his lineage fail the test of solidity.
Why do you think so?

To my experience and my understanding of "etiquette" it is natural, that the lineage of a teacher is displayed by himself in face to face conversation. And only by himself.

I have more than once experienced that a lineage that was to read or was told even by advanced studends differed from what the teacher himself said, when asked. And in some cases it was kind of complicated, not so one-dimensional even when directly talking about it.

This is another aspect (comparison of fees; demanding some "video-proof" without practicing with the teacher concerned; discussion of lineage without talking directly to the concerned teacher) that I have never experienced being discussed regarding another teacher. Why is this so? I don't understand that.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 01-02-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:12 PM   #96
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I suspect a lot of folks are going to read them and think, "There goes Dan bragging about how unbeatable he is again." Amiright?

If so, that's totally not the way to read the point Dan's trying to make. Instead of getting annoyed at the "tone" ask yourself--who is contradicting him?

Who's saying, "Nah, I was there, and it wasn't much"?
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just trying to show the other side of this argument.

There are people out there who have seen Dan, and weren't blown away. Now do they want to go on public record saying something negative about someone for no real reason; that's another important question to ask.

Let's say Dan has a 90% seminar success rate. Thats a pretty good rate of people who like what he's doing to people who don't care for what he's doing. Out of those 10% who didn't like it, how many were just underwhelmed, but not upset, I would guess 5%. How many of the 5% who were upset, would actually make public note of it, maybe 1% or so, how many of that 1% use internet forums....

See what I'm saying here? People are more likely to talk positively about someone then negatively. So it's rare that someone is upset enough, or public enough to want to blast someone else that they've had a negative experience with, unless it's dramatic.

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Old 01-02-2013, 05:07 PM   #97
yugen
 
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Re: Vantage points

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think that makes his lineage fail the test of solidity.
The first seminar I attended with Dan I found very informative and good. I wanted to know his lineage, who he learned from, who did they learn from etc. I could have just blurted the question on the floor, but i believe in martial etiquette.

So after the class I waited because as I've come to learn he gets surrounded by people still practicing and wanting more and Dan just keeps talking and talking...

Finally I got him aside and I asked him.... and... he told me. No big deal. Meet him and ask him. I don't want to put words in Dan's mouth, but listening to him at his seminars it comes across to me that the lineage thing to Dan is about Ueshiba and the other giants and not about Dan.

If I'm not mistaken in Koryu there is a culture where you never show someone else your Menkyo scrolls, its personal and private - Not saying Dan is a Menkyo holder or anything, I'm just talking to the etiquette that still exists in some forms of Budo and isn't meant for forum discussion. IMO

Ryan Schoelerman

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https://www.facebook.com/SeattleILC
Do not think or judge. Just observe and feel the way things are.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:21 PM   #98
hughrbeyer
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Re: Vantage points

Of course, Chris. The Good Lord himself had his detractors, it would be very surprising if Dan didn't have more than a few. But the same calculation of % out of all those who were there applies on both sides of the ledger. And balancing those who don't like to say anything negative are those who would very much have liked to say something negative about Dan.

But (all together now) IT'S NOT ABOUT DAN. It's about the overwhelming acceptance of the skills he's been kind enough to share among experienced aikidoka. That's the phenomenon that needs explaining.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:28 PM   #99
stan baker
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Re: Vantage points

Hi Chris
I am sure that there were people who saw Ueshiba that did not
think it was a big deal either.There are different degrees of interest regarding this info.

stan
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:25 PM   #100
DH
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Of course, Chris. The Good Lord himself had his detractors, it would be very surprising if Dan didn't have more than a few. But the same calculation of % out of all those who were there applies on both sides of the ledger. And balancing those who don't like to say anything negative are those who would very much have liked to say something negative about Dan.

But (all together now) IT'S NOT ABOUT DAN. It's about the overwhelming acceptance of the skills he's been kind enough to share among experienced aikidoka. That's the phenomenon that needs explaining.
You would be hard pressed, very hard pressed to get any section of attendees to say I make this stuff about me. It was NEVER about me. I can state definitively that I make that case pretty strongly at every seminar I have ever done.
We need to keep our eyes on the work that produced all these giants for generations, and stop getting side tracked on the people themselves.

Chris Hein
Your counter argument for such tiny percentages makes my case when I say to you "Do you have anything positive to say at all?" Given any opportunity you choose to accent the negative and almost begrudgingly mention something that might be positive. That said, we are not talking about just me are we? At least I'm not. The overwhelming impact that those with IP have had on Aikido (once an art based on IP) is the real point. Hence the argument for the correct translations, the correct pedagogy, the fact that the same work produced other unusual men, etc etc.

And last...two small points you missed.
1. While it remains an almost 100% success rate...the real point is that all 100% upon testing...failed. and this by their own admission. I find that significant, so did they. So, *I* don't need to really say this is a better way to produce soft power and aiki. Virtually all of the Aikido teachers I have met -100%- have proved that Ueshiba's way is a better way to move just by standing on a mat against it.
2. That said.
None of this was ever mine. It is Ueshiba's....and it is brilliant.

Lineage
How valuable was the connection to Takeda to all but a handful of his students?
How valuable was the connection to Ueshiba for all but a handful of his students?
Ask the students of Tokimune Takeda, including the president and treasurer of his organization for over 35 years how valuable their association with him was? He stated openly at the end of his life that he never taught them the real art.
Sagawa stated openly that he lied and hid the real art from his people.

We must face facts.
They...do...not...teach large groups of people. How many times do you have to be told and see it occur that only one of two under a teacher "get it?" A VERY famous Japanese shihan goes around teaching internals ...this very day... and states plainly in open rooms. "I don't care if anyone get's it. Its not my job to teach!"
Fine. Thanks for telling us. Next!!.
How many times do we need to hear these things before we get it? Before we finally realize that all of this lineage stuff promises nothing. It has always been handed down in small numbers.

I would suggest that instead of hugging the tree that bears little fruit, you cultivate the ones that do.

Dan
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