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Old 12-23-2012, 05:19 PM   #1
Chris Li
 
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Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

New blog post!

Aiki no Rentai: The Conditioned Body of Yukiyoshi Sagawa, Part 2 - Keisetsu Yoshimaru and "Aikido no Ogi"

Enjoy!

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-23-2012, 07:59 PM   #2
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

This installment was fun to read! Some interesting nuggets in there.

"June 28th, 1965
I became able to do techniques like this in my forties, when I think about it now I was using strength in my thirties. It was the same at first in Daito-ryu, I was just twisting my arms, there wasn't any throwing with winding in the form."

Chris,
Was "winding" the literal translation from the Japanese?
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:10 PM   #3
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
This installment was fun to read! Some interesting nuggets in there.

"June 28th, 1965
I became able to do techniques like this in my forties, when I think about it now I was using strength in my thirties. It was the same at first in Daito-ryu, I was just twisting my arms, there wasn't any throwing with winding in the form."

Chris,
Was "winding" the literal translation from the Japanese?
Yes - I don't know if it's the same kind of winding that you're thinking of - but the pairing with a contrast to "twisting" is certainly suggestive.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-23-2012, 08:13 PM   #4
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

That's what I was thinking, too. Thanks.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:08 AM   #5
gregstec
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Wow, some good stuff here - just another good example of an independent source providing more corroborating documentation supporting the views of the IP/IS crowd. Why is it that those with dissimilar views cannot see this and/or provide the same level and type of documentation supporting their views on aiki and other aspects of Ueshiba's Aikido.

Greg
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:08 PM   #6
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Wow, some good stuff here - just another good example of an independent source providing more corroborating documentation supporting the views of the IP/IS crowd. Why is it that those with dissimilar views cannot see this and/or provide the same level and type of documentation supporting their views on aiki and other aspects of Ueshiba's Aikido.

Greg
Why can't they? Because the stuff presented here is written in a vague-enough way so as to be intepreted on many different levels, depending on where the reader is coming from. Every word can be read and result in a chorus of "we do that, too!" The distraction of writing about external movement, or movements that can be interpreted as external, without any detailed explanation of the underlying drivers will never serve as proof of anything.

Again, "Watch my hands! At no time do they leave my wrists..."
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:11 PM   #7
gregstec
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Why can't they? Because the stuff presented here is written in a vague-enough way so as to be intepreted on many different levels, depending on where the reader is coming from. Every word can be read and result in a chorus of "we do that, too!" The distraction of writing about external movement, or movements that can be interpreted as external, without any detailed explanation of the underlying drivers will never serve as proof of anything.

Again, "Watch my hands! At no time do they leave my wrists..."
Well said...
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:16 PM   #8
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

I just want to point out that I'm referring to the actual content---- not to Chris Li's excellent translation work!
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:48 AM   #9
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

I enjoyed reading all that.

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Old 12-26-2012, 08:16 AM   #10
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Why can't they? Because the stuff presented here is written in a vague-enough way so as to be intepreted on many different levels, depending on where the reader is coming from. Every word can be read and result in a chorus of "we do that, too!" The distraction of writing about external movement, or movements that can be interpreted as external, without any detailed explanation of the underlying drivers will never serve as proof of anything.

Again, "Watch my hands! At no time do they leave my wrists..."
If Jun ever (not that he would) decides to go to a moderator approved only posting format, I vote you to be the moderator.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:05 AM   #11
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Hi Jason,
I wasn't referring to AikiWeb, but to the writings that Chris has translated here. However, you are right -- what I stated could be applied to the IS/Aiki discussions on AikiWeb as well, although the "Watch my hands..." snippet doesn't apply at all -- no one here is intentionally trying to distract or mislead anyone. I addressed the reason why everything is written so vaguely, in response to your post on the "tomato, tomahto" thread (second part of my post) here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...375#post320375

The close-to-the-vest nature of Japanese (and other Asian) teachers who traditionally withheld knowledge intentionally from their own students, may rub many of us the wrong way, but I think we can appreciate why Sagawa and others who wrote of aiki would not disclose training methods publicly (in books, etc.) when they were considered so precious. Inventors take out patents and copyrights on ideas, but body methods are not protected that way.

I agree that it is often unproductive when we come to a public forum and allude to "special things," but then do not elaborate on what they are and how they work. But I also appreciate the reasons and have been "guilty" of it myself for the reasons stated. I do think that the greater idea behind some of these discussions is "There's some deep stuff out there, and we're willing to show it to anyone who sincerely wants to know, but we won't broadcast the specifics on a public forum."

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-26-2012 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:13 PM   #12
Krystal Locke
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Hi Jason,
I wasn't referring to AikiWeb, but to the writings that Chris has translated here. However, you are right -- what I stated could be applied to the IS/Aiki discussions on AikiWeb as well, although the "Watch my hands..." snippet doesn't apply at all -- no one here is intentionally trying to distract or mislead anyone. I addressed the reason why everything is written so vaguely, in response to your post on the "tomato, tomahto" thread (second part of my post) here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...375#post320375

The close-to-the-vest nature of Japanese (and other Asian) teachers who traditionally withheld knowledge intentionally from their own students, may rub many of us the wrong way, but I think we can appreciate why Sagawa and others who wrote of aiki would not disclose training methods publicly (in books, etc.) when they were considered so precious. Inventors take out patents and copyrights on ideas, but body methods are not protected that way.

I agree that it is often unproductive when we come to a public forum and allude to "special things," but then do not elaborate on what they are and how they work. But I also appreciate the reasons and have been "guilty" of it myself for the reasons stated. I do think that the greater idea behind some of these discussions is "There's some deep stuff out there, and we're willing to show it to anyone who sincerely wants to know, but we won't broadcast the specifics on a public forum."
The words you use here and in other posts (the one you referenced, for example) that give me real pause when discussing IP stuff are "precious", "patents and copyrights", and "proprietary". Those words when added to the IHTBF claim really smells bad to me, especially when I can't seem to get much substantial technical info (physics, biomechanics, definitions) about what is happening. The rancor between people discussing IP along with the whiff of profit motive keeps me firmly in the skeptic's camp.

Yes, I will find a seminar. I will feel this for myself. I have attended a handful of Ikeda's seminars where he has claimed to be teaching IP stuff, but I am not yet satisfied that he is not simply doing on a more practiced level what I learn in my own dojo. I intend to make an IP seminar next year, if not a couple. I will feel this for myself.

However, I am also resistant to the idea that my individual experience at an IP seminar would be necessary and sufficient (in the mathematical sense) "proof" for me. I am not an entirely rational player, no one is. I prefer to rely upon a strong consensus from a large number of people who are also predominantly rational and trained in examining physical phenomena. I am happy to be a data point, I am happy to give my most rational assessment of my experience, and I am thrilled to hear from others. I've read enough to agree that there is something worth looking at, questions need to be asked, explored and answered to the extent possible. I am not yet satisfied by other people's answers, or their questions, for that matter.

A side note. One projection of "dual opposing spirals" is a lissajous. It does not follow that a lissajous is necessarily a projection of "dual opposing spirals". My evidentiary standards are pretty high. All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.

I've gotten some response for expressing my discomfort with what seems like a profit motive. It is argued that the vast majority of aikido teacher teach for money, and that is certainly true. However, I have met few aikido teachers, and few martial arts teachers in general who use nondisclosure agreements and who forbid basic recording of their seminars. I have agreed a few times to not share the good and useful stuff I've learned in a class, but I dont really fully buy the whole secret art that is too deadly for mere folks can cause demonic health problems song and dance when the agreement is viewed under the spotlight of protecting paid access to a product provided by few individuals. Precious patented and copyrighted proprietary product, or a true return to real aikido? I dont know. I'm just uneasy with the tone of some of the discussion. The responses have not fully eased my mind.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:29 PM   #13
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Krystal,
You raise some interesting points that I would like to address; however, I don't want to hijack Chris's thread further. If you take your post and start a new thread with it (maybe in the "General" or "Open Discussions" forum?) I will gladly continue the discussion.

Cady

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-26-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:32 PM   #14
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Krystal,
You raise some interesting points that I would like to address; however, I don't want to hijack Chris's thread further. If you take your post and start a new thread with it (maybe in the "General" or "Open Discussions" forum?) I will gladly continue the discussion.

Cady
I notice that Dan has started a new thread on this in the Open Discussions forum.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-31-2012, 12:31 AM   #15
Mert Gambito
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Re: Aiki no Rentai, Part 2

Chris,

Thank you for the clarification you provided offline earlier today regarding the apparent common thread found in the Sagawa Dojo, discussed in your article, and in Hakkoryu solo training.

I'm very interested to see what other things will come to light going forward that tie Daito-ryu's offspring back to the source regarding building an aiki body.

Mert
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