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Old 12-29-2012, 10:24 AM   #1
DH
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Vantage points

I am choosing to reply here to an off topic post that appeared in the Aikido no Rentai thread so as not to derail the thread. Since Krystal was responding to Cady off topic and about IP, I thought I would put it here:
Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
The words you use here and in other posts (the one you referenced, for example) that give me real pause when discussing IP stuff are "precious", "patents and copyrights", and "proprietary". Those words when added to the IHTBF claim really smells bad to me, especially when I can't seem to get much substantial technical info (physics, biomechanics, definitions) about what is happening. The rancor between people discussing IP along with the whiff of profit motive keeps me firmly in the skeptic's camp.
Well I think your response here is a very fine case in point.
I have saved entire threads to track how they went down hill. I have shown some of them to Jun. Your's is another example:
  • You came in off topic
  • Stated some one's view smell bad (by default a negative insinuation)
  • Discussed the "wiff of profit" for IP folks, but not caring to mention the extortion rates of some Japanese teachers seminars (how does a flat fee of $5,000 plus first class air fair and hotels and food), and the money they charge for rank. Why aren't we discussing that? Would you like to name names? No? Then why point out us alone? Is there a reason?
  • You noted "rancor in IP discussions"
  • Where does it come from? Have you looked into it. Have you noted long threads and where the attacks begin?
  • What could trigger "rancor" in your off topic response to a thread discussing IP?

Vantage points
You stated
Quote:
I intend to make an IP seminar next year, if not a couple. I will feel this for myself.
Quote:
I prefer to rely upon a strong consensus from a large number of people who are also predominantly rational and trained in examining physical phenomena.
Quote:
I am happy to be a data point, I am happy to give my most rational assessment of my experience, and I am thrilled to hear from others
.
Quote:
I've read enough to agree that there is something worth looking at, questions need to be asked, explored and answered to the extent possible. I am not yet satisfied by other people's answers, or their questions, for that matter.
So from your vantage point:
1. You want to feel it for yourself. Good
2. You prefer to rely on a strong consensus. Okay.
My vantage point:
How does just under 100% Sound to you? That is what we are seeing as the "IP crowd. To put it another way, have you heard a bunch of people come on to the web and say "Ya, I can do that stuff?" I haven't! Have you heard a bunch of people say, we already do that? I haven't. Have you read or heard of a significant number of people stating something, anything... negative to counter the overwhelmingly positive feedback? I haven't.
What you have heard (if you are paying attention) is an incredible amount of people stating that they were impressed and were changing their practice....forever! And that they simply could not handle the IP teachers. It's here in writing.

Have you asked or looked into the feedback from the seminars? Behind the scenes, more and more high ranking teachers in aikido (including a life long friend of Doshu) have listened to the overwhelming evidence of their peers switching to this training. Why...hasn't the community at large looked into or noted the continuous stream of positive affirmations of those training IP?

Were the IP a new brand of car getting these kinds of positive results they would take over the market.

Your vantage point:
Quote:
A side note. One projection of "dual opposing spirals" is a lissajous. It does not follow that a lissajous is necessarily a projection of "dual opposing spirals". My evidentiary standards are pretty high. All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.
My view:
Are your standards higher than 17 Shihan, 6 6th dans and 52 go dans and hundreds of others? And that is just with me. Now add those training with other IP guys. Perhaps-as a standard- a bit of research and review would help attain a more balanced view. Wouldn't that at least be more positive than talking about things smelling bad, a wiff or profit, and rancor?

As it is, the Lissajous curve has nothing to do with the body technology that was discussed By Morihei Ueshiba. And more interesting for me, is here again there is no mention of Ueshiba stating something that existed in the very arts he studied, and the classical arts he pointed to, instead we see a complete ignoring of that, and we segue into models for things you have no information or experience in. To equate the dual opposing spirals to a mathmatical curve, while ignoring the founders own statement about them, while ignoring their place in other arts, while openly not understanding them, and in the process ignoring hundreds of Aikido teachers testament to the validity of the very thing you are arguing against. High standards? This certainly doesn't seem a good strategy or approach to research.

Your vantage point:
Quote:
I've gotten some response for expressing my discomfort with what seems like a profit motive. It is argued that the vast majority of aikido teacher teach for money, and that is certainly true. However, I have met few aikido teachers, and few martial arts teachers in general who use nondisclosure agreements and who forbid basic recording of their seminars. I have agreed a few times to not share the good and useful stuff I've learned in a class, but I dont really fully buy the whole secret art that is too deadly for mere folks can cause demonic health problems song and dance when the agreement is viewed under the spotlight of protecting paid access to a product provided by few individuals. Precious patented and copyrighted proprietary product, or a true return to real aikido? I dont know. I'm just uneasy with the tone of some of the discussion. The responses have not fully eased my mind.
My view:
So tell me. Can you think of anything positive to say about why someone would not produce video or want people to discuss the material?
Anything? Anything at all? Anything come to mind?

If the wiff of profit, profit as thee one and only motive, left a bad smell in your mind...How then, does someone answer your cry for more "products for sale" like video? It sounds like a "no win" set up to me.

1. Sagawa did not produce video and stayed in his own dojo.
2, I have not produced video and stayed in my own dojo for 22 years until I was asked- even chastised- to openly teach.
Can you find anything positive to say about those two examples? Anything? Anything at all?


Can we agree on this?

Choices for better discussions
We can agree to disagree
We can choose to be nice
We can choose to think the best of other peoples motives
We can choose not to assume that when other people do not agree with our way of thinking, that it isn't for negative reasons.
We can choose to ask instead of insinuate

You wanted to talk about IP. Okay, as far as IP
Can we do it without being angry?
Can we assume the best of our motives?
Can we acknowledge the forward progression of IP discussions on the web? How did these discussions start many years ago. It started with those doing IP/aiki being openly derided for stating that this work is different and is the foundation of aikido.
What Happened?
Every....single....Aikido teacher who went to test....failed.
To my knowledge just about every, single, Aikido teacher who went...switched.
Why isn't that mentioned?
For starters:
1. What does it mean, that this has and is... taking place over and over again?
2. What does it mean that it is routinely ignored in the discussion?

These are some pretty serious questions to ask, given that the success rates we are seeing are the result of OUR high standards and hard work.

I think we should begin by talking about those results and why hundreds of teachers (many who are members here who were openly against this) would switch their entire practice to include this. Isn't that a better tact then insinuating all sorts of negative motivations? I at least hope that as a discussion it can include a discussion...of those successes. Something else worth consideration is the fact that most of us who have met, have now become friends. I find that as fulfilling as the work itself.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-29-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:19 PM   #2
mathewjgano
 
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Vantage on the conversations

Just wanted to contribute what I can to this. I can appreciate where people are coming from when it comes to the profit motive. While I didn't make any assumptions in this regard, when I first began reading these threads and their testimonials (which these threads often produce in abundance) they hit me like an advertizement.
That being said, while I am sure it varies depending on the needs of the venue, my extremely brief exposure to your seminar left me fairly confident that there is more than mere salesmanship going on; I was told to pay what I could afford and was given no demand for what that should be. If I had more time and money (paying is only fair after all) I would definately attend more. Comparing the 2 "IP" seminars I attended (and I only caught a cursory glimpse of those) with others I was hoping to attend, the price was the most affordable.
It was only after reading what certain people had to say here on AikiWeb that my suspension of belief changed to believing it would be worthwhile to check it out. I'm only a beginner, but from what I could see, at the very least there is good stuff being taught (i.e. applies to all ranges of skill, or at least the ones for which I believe I have some recognition) and the exposure to the other folks who attended made it worthwhile in its own right.
The biggest problem I see with these conversations has to do with differences in personality and communication style. For many, the message isn't often put in a user-friendly manner and is rarely apologetic for this fact. Only in the last year or so have I perceived a change in this approach...and I am very happy to see it because, yes, I do see these IP conversations moving forward, even if sometimes only by inches.
"Whatever" though...we all progress in our own time and in our own ways. What matters is that we maintain connection and keep ironing it out, doing our best not to get frustrated to the point where it interferes with how we engage each other, or worse yet perhaps, stop trying altogether.
...my wooden nickle...
Sincerely,
Matthew

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-29-2012 at 12:22 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:26 PM   #3
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

I've said it before, but I really don't get the profit motive stuff. I know for a fact that Dan doesn't make much money on this stuff, doesn't run a commercial dojo, and doesn't make a living out of it.

Even if he did, so what? Morihei Ueshiba taught for money - Sokaku Takeda. Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda, Yoshimitsu Yamada, Mitsugi Saotome, Kazuo Chiba, Hiroshi Ikeda and all the rest taught/teach for money (and a lot more money than Dan ever makes), sold books/videos/t-shirts and whatever and nobody blinks an eye.

And what about the "secrets"?

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
However, I have met few aikido teachers, and few martial arts teachers in general who use nondisclosure agreements and who forbid basic recording of their seminars. I have agreed a few times to not share the good and useful stuff I've learned in a class, but I dont really fully buy the whole secret art that is too deadly for mere folks can cause demonic health problems song and dance when the agreement is viewed under the spotlight of protecting paid access to a product provided by few individuals. Precious patented and copyrighted proprietary product, or a true return to real aikido? I dont know. I'm just uneasy with the tone of some of the discussion. The responses have not fully eased my mind.
First of all, I don't think anybody has really spoken about "demonic health problems" (Lee Price mentioned something along those lines, but AFAIK he's never met Dan, and I don't know whose training he's referring to).

I've never signed a nondisclosure agreement.

Many places that I trained at in Japan prohibit basic recording of some or all of what they're doing. You can't even take video or still photos at Aikikai Hombu without special permission.

Morihei Ueshiba did not allow certain things to be filmed, or even seen publicly. Sokaku Takeda was the same.

Sagawa Dojo is the same to this day, as is the Kodokai.

The Ki Society only releases certain materials to their members.

Mitsugi Saotome did the same thing, when he first produced a two-sword video.

Hiroshi Ikeda only sells certain DVD's to people who have attended certain workshops.

Now, in Dan's case you'll have to ask him, but it's certainly not about proprietary information - one of the requirements that he imposed when he started teaching this stuff publicly was that people would not hoard this stuff to themselves.

However, it is very difficult to transmit in any detail over the internet without a common frame of reference.

If you've ever done any tech support over the phone you should know - how hard is it to explain logging into Facebook to your 80 year old Grandmother? And that's a simple technical sequence with discrete, easily describable physical steps.

The last time I tried something similar I had to ask for a screenshot - and they emailed a picture of their monitor taken with a digital camera (a true story!).

As for videos, they aren't much use, and often cause more trouble than they're worth (they don't seem to settly too many arguments around here, do they?). There are a lot of videos out - if watching them got you anywhere then people would already be able to do this stuff.

The acrimony? This stuff isn't new, it's been the subject of acrimonious discussions on the internet for at least 15 years. For most of that time people like Dan and Mike Sigman (if I can dare to mention them both in the same sentence!) were on the receiving end - a lot of that from me, I'm sorry to say.

Well, times have changed, it seems, and those two are no longer speaking alone when talking about this stuff (which should tell you quite a bit, I would think), but it's hard for many people to imagine that they don't really understand the things that they've been training in and teaching for twenty, thirty years and more, that there's much more work to do. That they weren't even close, in many ways.

It's hard for them to take the chance.

But I did...

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-29-2012, 03:00 PM   #4
Michael Varin
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Re: Vantage points

Frankly, I don't know why people bring up a "profit motive" either.

I don't know much about Dan's seminars or travel expenses. I'm not even in the "IP/IT/IS crowd," but who cares?

If he teaches something that people find value in, than there is no issue as I see it.

I have attended many seminars that are much more expensive than Dan's.

Bottom line, there is no free lunch.

Now, if you suspect that what Dan is teaching isn't as valuable as the price, don't pay it. I don't buy coffee from Starbucks, but practically everyone I work with does. It's not a problem for me, or them.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 12-29-2012, 03:01 PM   #5
Mert Gambito
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Now, in Dan's case you'll have to ask him, but it's certainly not about proprietary information - one of the requirements that he imposed when he started teaching this stuff publicly was that people would not hoard this stuff to themselves.

However, it is very difficult to transmit in any detail over the internet without a common frame of reference.
Yeah, the responsible thing to do, at least for the next few years, is to defer to those who've been pursuing IP/IS for multiple decades and are widely vetted as skilled. Skeptics can wait a few years until our generation of IP/IS seekers, who skeptics may currently see as sycophants, can adequately prove up -- but time is precious, and we're talking about years potentially wasted for no good reason.

Mert
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Old 12-29-2012, 03:17 PM   #6
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Vantage points

Regarding proprietary material, some thoughts on a couple of vantage points:

Some of the things IMO are proprietary in the sense that they are personal training methods that were not meant for indiscriminate public broadcast. The core concepts are not themselves proprietary, but the means for developing the skills are someone's creative approach and invention, devised not in a vacuum, of course (everyone stands on the shoulders of giants, after all), but nevertheless a unique and individualized system of training.

It's one thing for IP teachers to state to those training with them that they should (or must) share it with their own students; another thing altogether, for relative- or complete strangers on the Internet to demand specifics about training, videos, etc.

When there is no personal relationship or oversight by the original teacher, information can be scattered to the four winds and claimed by many as their own... with no guarantee that they are actually doing it the way (and to the same result) as the originator. There has to be some modicum of quality control over the material. I'm not talking about stylistic tweaks - but of wholesale misinterpretations of the core concepts and bodywork themselves that lead to something else that does not have the integrity of the original.

That said, some teachers will say that their arts are self-selecting, meaning that even if their personal, creative training methods are broadcast and scattered to the winds, out on YouTube in numerous instructional videos, or "stolen" by casual seminar attendees, only the most dedicated individuals will actually do the work and make something of it.

So, they either try to maintain some kind of oversight, so people at least know and honestly state where their methods came from, or they let it go and let the chips fall where they may.

Or, they copyright their method and system name, and treat it as a business. Or, they only teach the whole enchilada to one or two people, and give the rest varying degrees of various skills, and forbid them to go out on their own and teach it (but if they do, they have to call it something else).

But for us to claim that all material should belong to the world and everyone, including unique training methods that some individual's hard work and creativity devised... well, that should be up to the individual creator to decide. Why is it so difficult to consider this? Why can't I play "Rite of Spring" on my penny whistle and claim that I wrote it? Maybe because some people will suspect I ripped off Stravinsky, no? But I can claim that I am doing a cover of Stravinsky and have adapted it for penny whistle. That, people might accept. "Rite of Spring" may belong to the world as a treasure of human creativity; anyone can play it, whether in a symphonic orchestra or on a tin whistle, but it is still Stravinsky's creative invention, proprietary to him, and he must be credited as its creator if we are to maintain our own integrity.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-29-2012 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 12-29-2012, 03:26 PM   #7
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
When there is no personal relationship or oversight by the original teacher, information can be scattered to the four winds and claimed by many as their own... with no guarantee that they are actually doing it the way (and to the same result) as the originator. There has to be some modicum of auality control over the material. I'm not talking about stylistic tweaks - but of wholesale misinterpretations of the core concepts and bodywork themselves that lead to something else that does not have the integrity of the original.
"The secrets protect themselves"
-Sam Chin

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-29-2012, 03:29 PM   #8
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Vantage points

Exactly!
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Old 12-29-2012, 03:50 PM   #9
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Exactly!
Glad you got it! I just noticed that I quoted the wrong paragraph - meant to get the next one. Back to training, I guess...

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-29-2012, 03:57 PM   #10
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Vantage points

I knew what you were referring to...though I kinda wondered why you selected that paragraph to use for the Sam Chin quote. He is exactly the person (well, one of two) I was thinking of when I wrote about those who view their arts as being self-selecting to those willing to do the work.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:13 AM   #11
sakumeikan
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I've said it before, but I really don't get the profit motive stuff. I know for a fact that Dan doesn't make much money on this stuff, doesn't run a commercial dojo, and doesn't make a living out of it.

Even if he did, so what? Morihei Ueshiba taught for money - Sokaku Takeda. Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda, Yoshimitsu Yamada, Mitsugi Saotome, Kazuo Chiba, Hiroshi Ikeda and all the rest taught/teach for money (and a lot more money than Dan ever makes), sold books/videos/t-shirts and whatever and nobody blinks an eye.

And what about the "secrets"?

First of all, I don't think anybody has really spoken about "demonic health problems" (Lee Price mentioned something along those lines, but AFAIK he's never met Dan, and I don't know whose training he's referring to).

I've never signed a nondisclosure agreement.

Many places that I trained at in Japan prohibit basic recording of some or all of what they're doing. You can't even take video or still photos at Aikikai Hombu without special permission.

Morihei Ueshiba did not allow certain things to be filmed, or even seen publicly. Sokaku Takeda was the same.

Sagawa Dojo is the same to this day, as is the Kodokai.

The Ki Society only releases certain materials to their members.

Mitsugi Saotome did the same thing, when he first produced a two-sword video.

Hiroshi Ikeda only sells certain DVD's to people who have attended certain workshops.

Now, in Dan's case you'll have to ask him, but it's certainly not about proprietary information - one of the requirements that he imposed when he started teaching this stuff publicly was that people would not hoard this stuff to themselves.

However, it is very difficult to transmit in any detail over the internet without a common frame of reference.

If you've ever done any tech support over the phone you should know - how hard is it to explain logging into Facebook to your 80 year old Grandmother? And that's a simple technical sequence with discrete, easily describable physical steps.

The last time I tried something similar I had to ask for a screenshot - and they emailed a picture of their monitor taken with a digital camera (a true story!).

As for videos, they aren't much use, and often cause more trouble than they're worth (they don't seem to settly too many arguments around here, do they?). There are a lot of videos out - if watching them got you anywhere then people would already be able to do this stuff.

The acrimony? This stuff isn't new, it's been the subject of acrimonious discussions on the internet for at least 15 years. For most of that time people like Dan and Mike Sigman (if I can dare to mention them both in the same sentence!) were on the receiving end - a lot of that from me, I'm sorry to say.

Well, times have changed, it seems, and those two are no longer speaking alone when talking about this stuff (which should tell you quite a bit, I would think), but it's hard for many people to imagine that they don't really understand the things that they've been training in and teaching for twenty, thirty years and more, that there's much more work to do. That they weren't even close, in many ways.

It's hard for them to take the chance.

But I did...

Best,

Chris
Dear Chris,
Of course your listed named Aikido teachers charge fees , after all they are full time Aikidoka.I do not think that this is being a bread head.eg money men or unworthy. I know personally at least one person on your list who has donated his time and his fee to assist others.I also know that the course fees per person charged by our group are certainly less costly than the price per person at I/P related courses.Now I am not saying that the I/P instructors are overcharging for their services since I have no information concerning the overheads of the course.I am just saying there is a cost differential.The bottom line is that if one wants a product one pays the price,be it a tin of baked beans or an I/P course/Aikido seminar.One has a choice.
As far as video material is concerned I cannot speak for other groups or individuals but all our groups video material are available to all interested parties.In case anybody reading this thinks that sales of this material enables me to enjoy a Brad Pitt lifestyle[I wish ] all monies raised by my efforts go to our group to boost our funds.May I also state that in relation to prices charged by others for dvd material we do not charge an arm and a leg for our stuff?Happy New Year , Joe.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:23 AM   #12
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
the course fees per person charged by our group ...
Who is "our group"?
because:
Quote:
I am just saying there is a cost differential.
I think it depends on whom do you compare to whom.
I don't see that practicing with Dan is more expensive than practising with other teachers comparable.
I myself only conducted one class of a seminar throughout my life. The seminar was for free.
I attended seminars that where much more expensive than Dan's are.

Quote:
The bottom line is that if one wants a product one pays the price ...
For this is true I find it disgusting to discuss seminar fees in such a way. This would simply be impossible with other teachers.
And it is simply ridicoulus: I don't know wether you are used to inviting teachers from Japan or other countries overseas. Have you ever had to collect the money for a first class flight from Tokyo and a first class hotel in Berlin? Can you imagine what maybe twenty people would have to pay only for this? Thank god there are about 200 persons paying for the seminars plus we are using a part of the fees we collect in our federation.

Quote:
As far as video material is concerned I cannot speak for other groups or individuals but all our groups video material are available to all interested parties.
Most teachers I know don't allow taking videos during regular classes or seminars. Even teachers who have released instructional DVD's don't like it or - even if asked - prohibit it. Some allow it only after having edited the video themselves. Or it's allowed to take a video but not to show it openly or load it up to youtube.

To me it's the same thing like talking about seminar fees:
No teacher I practiced with would ever discuss his teachings using a DVD or a youtube video. To me it is not only disrespectfull to demand this.
But what's more important: This is a youtubeish understanding of how budō is taught and learned. You will never get what a teacher has to give without moving yourself to get out and touch him. Going and get him is part of the learning.
Many teachers of "my group" are going to Japan to get their teacher. Other teachers went to Paris once a week for years.
I assume you also move yourself to be with your teacher(s). So why do you think this would not be appropriate in this case?
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:02 AM   #13
sorokod
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Re: Vantage points

Anyone can charge whatever they want for the product they are selling. Its their's to price.

The following quote from Dan Harden captures something fundamental in my opinion:

Quote:
"Were the IP a new brand of car getting these kinds of positive results they would take over the market.
I do think that more than anything else, this is about branding and identity, the entity being branded is "Aiki". Which of the following is easier to market: "Dan Harden's training method" or "Aiki"?

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Old 12-30-2012, 08:22 AM   #14
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I do think that more than anything else, this is about branding and identity, the entity being branded is "Aiki".
I'd say that the analogy was perhaps not the best one, as this is not about "branding" anything. It's about trying to explain that what Morihei Ueshiba was doing, and talking about, was something completely different than the physical method that modern aikido is based on today, and that those who still know and practice aiki as it was known by Ueshiba and by Sokaku Takeda, are simply trying to convince modern aikido people of 1. its existance and 2. it's availability to be restored into modern aikido for those who would like to be able to experience aikido as Ueshiba could practice it.

The few Japanese arts that still maintain aiki within them, are not generally open to the "the world," and individuals who want to learn aiki must go through the process both of being accepted into those exclusive arts, and to have to learn the entire system in order to learn aiki. Even then, there is no guarantee that they will be taught the essense of aiki.

By contrast, there are a number of people who have the skills and are willing to teach them. And so far, looking at those who do offer this via school membership and/or seminars, it seems to me that what they are charging is extraordinarily inexpensive considering the value (IMO) of what students are receiving.

I mean, really!

Ask accountants, stockbrokers, doctors and lawyers about the questions they get at parties. People want free advice, for stuff that professionals charge by the hour for because it's their livelihood. They just nod and shrug, maybe a clipped "Thanks" if you do provide, but they get put off and sometimes huffy if you don't. What's offered "for free" is so often taken for granted.
Why should people who manage to make a livelihood from their knowledge, be criticized, while those who give it away don't earn any respect, either? Damned if you do or don't.

Be that as it may, some individuals have been incredibly fortunate to be given knowledge by others as a gift, one that, although it was a gift, came with an enormous burden of responsibility to do the work, to sweat, to be frustrated, sometimes to the point of tears. They got far more than they paid monetarily into it. Others pay a relatively few bucks and get some useful training, do the work, and gain skills, feeling they have gotten a great value for what they paid. Still others sit on the sidelines and gripe bitterly about folks whom they believe are hoarding knowledge and won't dish it or will do so for an outrageous $180 or whatever, for a paltry 24 hours of focused training. Go figure...
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:56 AM   #15
sorokod
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
It's about trying to explain that what Morihei Ueshiba was doing, and talking about, was something completely different than the physical method that modern aikido is based on today, and that those who still know and practice aiki as it was known by Ueshiba and by Sokaku Takeda, are simply trying to convince modern aikido people of 1. its existance and 2. it's availability to be restored into modern aikido for those who would like to be able to experience aikido as Ueshiba could practice it.
Please define "Modern Aikido".

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
The few Japanese arts that still maintain aiki within them, are not generally open to the "the world," and individuals who want to learn aiki must go through the process both of being accepted into those exclusive arts, and to have to learn the entire system in order to learn aiki. Even then, there is no guarantee that they will be taught the essense of aiki.
Please name these arts.

As to the price of the product, I already said that in my opinion, Dan Harden is entitled to charge whatever he sees fit.

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Old 12-30-2012, 09:16 AM   #16
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Vantage points

@ Carsten: Do you really think talking about money is disgusting? That seems like a strong word. I know some people think that money is private but disgusting???...could you talk more about why it is digusting?

I think it is important to talk about money. There is nothing to be ashamed of about making it. Many people seem to think that the IP seminars are worth paying for. That is wonderful.

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Old 12-30-2012, 09:58 AM   #17
MM
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Re: Vantage points

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
I do think that more than anything else, this is about branding and identity, the entity being branded is "Aiki". Which of the following is easier to market: "Dan Harden's training method" or "Aiki"?
It's weird, but it's like you think this is a vacuum of some sort. Here's this "Dan Harden" training. Yet, you overlook some major aikido people out there. Think about what you just stated above. Then talk to Bill Gleason and say that he doesn't have a clue as to what aiki is and he's really just using "Dan Harden's training method". Let me know how that works out for you, considering Bill Gleason's training history and experiences. Do you have the equivalent foundation to argue the point with him? When Bill talks about aikido, I listen. Heck, for that matter, when Bill talks about aikido, Dan listens.

Let's move on over to Chris Li. Again, let's view your message above and let's tell Chris Li that he doesn't have a clue what aiki is and he's really using "Dan Harden's training method". Do you know Chris Li's background? Do you have the equivalent foundation to argue with him? When Chris talks about aikido and/or the Japanese language, I listen.

How about George Ledyard? Allen Beebe? Marc Abrams? If you really, really want to know about the rest of those shihan and 6th dans, you should at least make the rounds of training in IP/aiki. There are quite a few who don't want named, including some who were there when Ueshiba was teaching. Do you have the equivalent foundation to argue with them?

Let's go another route. How about an aikido teacher who was around when Ueshiba was teaching who learned exercises that are either directly the same or extremely close to the same exercises Dan teaches? This teacher has never trained with Dan. Extremely gifted teacher, great person, and a treasure to learn from in the aikido world.

A second teacher (who doesn't teach aikido) who was around when Ueshiba taught. This teacher has aikido yudansha grading signed by Ueshiba. And this teacher stated that what Dan was doing was what Ueshiba did.

This material, IP/aiki, is what matters. It is Ueshiba's aiki.

So, whenever anyone thinks of IP/aiki, maybe it's time to start asking these high level people who have 40 years of experience with everyone from Ueshiba to direct students (and have gone to "vetted" IP/aiki teachers) what they think.

Although you probably aren't going to like what they say ... as nearly 100% of them call this IP/aiki and not "Dan Harden's training method".

Takeda's aiki aka Ueshiba's aiki. IP/aiki should be THE central talking point. How to train it. How to rebuild the body. How it is manifested in aikido training. How strategy and tactics work with a rebuilt aiki body. How hard the training is. How IP/aiki fits in with Kisshomaru's vision of Modern Aikido.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:11 AM   #18
sorokod
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Let's go another route. How about an aikido teacher who was around when Ueshiba was teaching who learned exercises that are either directly the same or extremely close to the same exercises Dan teaches? This teacher has never trained with Dan. Extremely gifted teacher, great person, and a treasure to learn from in the aikido world.

A second teacher (who doesn't teach aikido) who was around when Ueshiba taught. This teacher has aikido yudansha grading signed by Ueshiba. And this teacher stated that what Dan was doing was what Ueshiba did.
This is extremely valuable information. Who are these gentlemen?

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Old 12-30-2012, 10:20 AM   #19
MM
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
This is extremely valuable information. Who are these gentlemen?
Well, to be fair, the other info was extremely valuable also. Or do you not know the backgrounds of the named aikido teachers in my post?

Also, from what I understand, there are other people who trained when Ueshiba was around who also have been to IP/aiki workshops. Not just limited to the two I know.

As to those two ... information from both, as far as I know, was done privately. I've met/trained with both. One was second hand info. The other direct. But, you're more than welcome to disregard due to anonymous status.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:20 AM   #20
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Chris,
Of course your listed named Aikido teachers charge fees , after all they are full time Aikidoka.I do not think that this is being a bread head.eg money men or unworthy. I know personally at least one person on your list who has donated his time and his fee to assist others.I also know that the course fees per person charged by our group are certainly less costly than the price per person at I/P related courses.Now I am not saying that the I/P instructors are overcharging for their services since I have no information concerning the overheads of the course.I am just saying there is a cost differential.The bottom line is that if one wants a product one pays the price,be it a tin of baked beans or an I/P course/Aikido seminar.One has a choice.
As far as video material is concerned I cannot speak for other groups or individuals but all our groups video material are available to all interested parties.In case anybody reading this thinks that sales of this material enables me to enjoy a Brad Pitt lifestyle[I wish ] all monies raised by my efforts go to our group to boost our funds.May I also state that in relation to prices charged by others for dvd material we do not charge an arm and a leg for our stuff?Happy New Year , Joe.
In my experience Dan charges much less then most (all?) of the people on that list. The per head cost may be higher, but the overall cost is generally much lower because of the limit on the number of participants to allow hands on contact time.

When we had Doshu in Honolulu last year there were almost 500 people on the mat for his three hours of instruction time - 180 minutes. Take out the warm-ups, lecturing, and walking around time, and you get a situation in which most people don't even get to touch him once! The per head fees were similar. Doshu's fees were....much much higher.

When we had Doshu in Honolulu last year most of our profit (almost $20,000) came from the brochures/DVD/t-shirt/etc. poster sales (that ended up going to the Red Cross for tsunami relief efforts in Japan). So it can run into some serious money.

Which is beside the point, I guess. I'm not accusing anybody - but I am saying that it's very very hard to point "profit motive" fingers at Dan without also pointing them at all of those folks as well.

For that matter, many AikiWeb members post their own seminars and workshops (I do too, of course) - very few of which are free, many make posts promoting those workshops, but none of them that I've seen are accused of a "profit motive" or "commercialism".

It seems like a hypocritical point to me, that's all.

Happy New Year Joe!

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-30-2012, 10:52 AM   #21
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Anyone can charge whatever they want for the product they are selling. Its their's to price.

The following quote from Dan Harden captures something fundamental in my opinion:

I do think that more than anything else, this is about branding and identity, the entity being branded is "Aiki". Which of the following is easier to market: "Dan Harden's training method" or "Aiki"?
Well, I think that was just an example.

As for "Aiki" - Dan has just as solid an Aiki lineage as anybody posting here. Not to mention the Aikido folks who call what he is doing "Aiki".

Do you object when other people here say that what they are doing is "Aiki"?

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-30-2012, 11:22 AM   #22
chillzATL
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Re: Vantage points

ugh, this again? Stay out of other peoples pockets.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:25 AM   #23
Gary David
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
As to the price of the product, I already said that in my opinion, Dan Harden is entitled to charge whatever he sees fit.
David
As a perspective on price....thinking about Dan and the meditative weekends my wife sometime attends....considering that both are about 12 hours of "mat" time.....Dan is charging somewhere in the neighborhood of $15 an hour.....from that he pays the fee for the dojo rental and airfare. He limits the numbers in the 20s to allow for more personal hands on.... Understand this about Dan.....the mat time is 12-14 hours only because we (the students) burn out before he does. Dan would easily go more hours...like he sez the mind wears out before the body does...... so the per hour price for us could easily be in the $11 per hour range. Now my wife goes to weekend meditative retreats a couple of times a year were the price to the "mat" work is $375 for the same amount of time that Dan instructs.....she is paying $23 per hour......

Just a note...having trained with Dan four times I would gladly pay $23 hour for what he provides. I say this knowing that I have taken ukemi from most of the major teachers in this country that were direct students of O'Sensei and most of the major teachers on the West Coast during the 70's through 2000...... while all of these folks were technical experts, special teachers if you will, only two did anything so different that I ask myself "what was that?" These were Saotome Sensei and Terry Dobson. Dan provides that "What was that?" for me now.......

I have no problem with you staying with what you do or questioning what you question.....but back to the future is out there in a number of places and I have access to it now in a couple of places...Dan being one of them.

good luck with everything....

Gary
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:28 AM   #24
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
It's weird, but it's like you think this is a vacuum of some sort. Here's this "Dan Harden" training. Yet, you overlook some major aikido people out there. Think about what you just stated above. Then talk to Bill Gleason and say that he doesn't have a clue as to what aiki is and he's really just using "Dan Harden's training method". Let me know how that works out for you, considering Bill Gleason's training history and experiences. Do you have the equivalent foundation to argue the point with him? When Bill talks about aikido, I listen. Heck, for that matter, when Bill talks about aikido, Dan listens.

Let's move on over to Chris Li. Again, let's view your message above and let's tell Chris Li that he doesn't have a clue what aiki is and he's really using "Dan Harden's training method". Do you know Chris Li's background? Do you have the equivalent foundation to argue with him? When Chris talks about aikido and/or the Japanese language, I listen.

How about George Ledyard? Allen Beebe? Marc Abrams? If you really, really want to know about the rest of those shihan and 6th dans, you should at least make the rounds of training in IP/aiki. There are quite a few who don't want named, including some who were there when Ueshiba was teaching. Do you have the equivalent foundation to argue with them?

Let's go another route. How about an aikido teacher who was around when Ueshiba was teaching who learned exercises that are either directly the same or extremely close to the same exercises Dan teaches? This teacher has never trained with Dan. Extremely gifted teacher, great person, and a treasure to learn from in the aikido world.

A second teacher (who doesn't teach aikido) who was around when Ueshiba taught. This teacher has aikido yudansha grading signed by Ueshiba. And this teacher stated that what Dan was doing was what Ueshiba did.

This material, IP/aiki, is what matters. It is Ueshiba's aiki.

So, whenever anyone thinks of IP/aiki, maybe it's time to start asking these high level people who have 40 years of experience with everyone from Ueshiba to direct students (and have gone to "vetted" IP/aiki teachers) what they think.

Although you probably aren't going to like what they say ... as nearly 100% of them call this IP/aiki and not "Dan Harden's training method".

Takeda's aiki aka Ueshiba's aiki. IP/aiki should be THE central talking point. How to train it. How to rebuild the body. How it is manifested in aikido training. How strategy and tactics work with a rebuilt aiki body. How hard the training is. How IP/aiki fits in with Kisshomaru's vision of Modern Aikido.
It just amazes me, utterly baffles me, that all of these high-level people's experiences are just brushed aside, ignored, as though they don't count in the least. Maybe those who are so dismissive are so isolated and sequestered in their own little dojo or organization, that those names just don't ring a bell? Maybe they need to get out more? I can't think of any other reason, except perhaps for a complete and overwhelming case of cognitive dissonance.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:30 AM   #25
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Vantage points

David Soroko wrote: Please define "Modern Aikido".

Mark already stated it: Aikido as per Kisshomaru's vision.
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