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Old 12-29-2012, 12:44 PM   #26
AikiTao
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Well - those two vids above are all well and good but it's nothing to do with Aikido. How are you going to learn aiki if you train like that? Aikido is The Way of Aiki as far as I'm concerened. Atemi in Aikido (or Jujutsu for that matter), if that is what you want to do, simply have to be applied within the flow of the technique.
I think that Aiki should be understood before rushing into striking like that but I still feel it's essential. Those "One hit then throw" techniques won't always work so if they are to fail, especially considering the degradation of motor skills and the likelihood of a freeze should a technique fail or something go wrong, striking is always a simple skill to fall back on and I think if worked with properly, it can work fine with Aikido and has everything to do with it.

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
IMO training atemi like that is like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. That's not to say I find it pointless, I just don't think it's addressing what the art of aikido is supposed to be about. To me it's a modern response to the question many people have about how impractical the techniques of aikido seem to be in actual fighting situations. So they take the "aikido is 80% atemi" quote and head off into the weeds in an effort to figure out how to actually apply an ikkyo to some big strong guy in a bar fight or worse yet, someone with some fighting skill. So you end up training to delivery semi-decent strikes (at best) while moving into techniques, but you've done nothing to address when the guy stumbles, falls into you and you both go crashing to the ground because you lack the stability and structure to stay on your feet and then you're off looking for something else to cross-train in (unless you've already done that) to get that and maybe still wondering how O'sensei was able to do what he did while really only training in one thing... ymmv
Like I said, I think that all Aikidoka should have a good base in Aikido and have a good foundation and understanding of all the principles before moving into learning strikes. I agree that striking doesn't necessarily address what Aikido is about, but still feel it to be very important. Also, if not studying how to deliver strikes yourself, at least study how they could be thrown at you.

As far as practicality, I have complete faith in Aikido, if it's trained properly. And this is probably because of all my previous training in striking styles, but I still want to include it in my Aikido without having interfere with the flow. To me, slugging it out isn't Aikido, but a few timed strikes to confuse the opponent may be the only way to even get close enough to deliver a good technique (considering they're experienced).
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #27
Cliff Judge
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Hmm, let me try to put this better...

My point in bringing up boxing is that we can see from the stats that a single attack actually has only a very small chance of connecting.

Then what?

Well, if you only train withat single attack (which is what is pretty standard in conventional Aikido), then you're stuck. Yes, the same principles apply, but I think that it's a pretty big leap to make on the fly.

There's nothing wrong with throwing your attacker down (as you mentioned in another post), but the same problem applies. If you look at Judo or other grappling arts, you can see that only a small percentage of throws actually go to completion cleanly.

Then what?

It's a similar problem, IMO.

Best,

Chris
So these are stats from competitive sports situations where two evenly-matched opponents agree to fight by a certain set of rules. I think it is important to not train with that mindset (unless you are a sport fighter). Aikido doesn't fit very well there, in general, and you aren't going to have an evenly-matched opponent mug you according to a set of rules. When under duress, you revert to behaviors you have burned in. That's why I think it is good to have a core practice where you receive a single strong attack and practice dealing with it as though you will die if you don't get it right.
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:53 PM   #28
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So these are stats from competitive sports situations where two evenly-matched opponents agree to fight by a certain set of rules. I think it is important to not train with that mindset (unless you are a sport fighter). Aikido doesn't fit very well there, in general, and you aren't going to have an evenly-matched opponent mug you according to a set of rules. When under duress, you revert to behaviors you have burned in. That's why I think it is good to have a core practice where you receive a single strong attack and practice dealing with it as though you will die if you don't get it right.
Those stats are the most readily available, which is why I quoted them. Don't get stuck on the boxing thing, I said before and I'll say it again - I'm not advocating boxing.

I don't think that the percentage of people actually connecting with strikes in a non-sports situation are any higher, and they're probably much lower, which only strengthens the argument, IMO.

People used to train intensively in Kata to refine certain skills - then they'd go out and fight for their experience. Most people don't do that anymore, which means that the training paradigm needs to be looked at more closely.

It's not a new problem - Musashi complained about it too.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-29-2012, 05:27 PM   #29
Krystal Locke
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Well - those two vids above are all well and good but it's nothing to do with Aikido. How are you going to learn aiki if you train like that? Aikido is The Way of Aiki as far as I'm concerened. Atemi in Aikido (or Jujutsu for that matter), if that is what you want to do, simply have to be applied within the flow of the technique.
Your post raises a very common question and suggests a topic that I dont see discussed often.

If aikido is the way of aiki, we might do well to know what aiki means. We can see from aikiweb that the term is still largely undefined, and is up for huge debate at the moment. For that matter, I'm not sure we're all that clear on what do means, but at least there is enough of a common consensus or the term is unimportant enough to us that we dont go rounds and rounds and rounds about it. So, what does aiki mean?

Something I have noticed in a couple arts and that your post reminded me of is that folks do not train well around strikes and flow. Watch a bitchin Bruce Lee nunchaku kata. Holy crap, there are a lot of potential strikes there and a buttload of flow. However, take those chucks, start that kata about 3 feet from a heavy bag, flow really well for a few seconds, and then step into range. The moment the chuck hits the bag all that lovely movement (laminar flow, if you will) is gone and turbulence is introduced. Same with punching a real person. Successful atemi severely changes flow. Those of us training martially could do well to experience that.

I think the first video in that post was pretty realistic and pretty good aikido. The attacks were a bit slow and a little empty, but it is training/testing. What I liked was that the punches were taken seriously and dealt with through covering or small evasions. It was clear to me that the white gi guy respected the effect (the break in flow) blue gi's punches would have. And yes, sloppy-assed haymakers are the order of the day in what I've seen of real attacks and fights. That kind of training doesn't look good to some aikidoka eyes, but it looks real and effective to me. Block and evade until you get the attack that fits the criteria for the techniques you have installed and available at the moment. Hmm, that sentence is related to my current (admittedly limited and external) idea of aiki.

I did not much like the second video because it seemed to combine the best of complaints against aikido from both sides of the aisle. The attacks were real enough (but really empty), but not respected. Instead, they were waded through and much ignored to get to grappling range, Better be really well conditioned to do that reliably. That aikidoka is in for the rude awakening of a real kick to the side of the knee or pop in the liver. Nage does not look comfortable with the change in flow that uke's resistance brings, and kind of hops in and out of range and technique without much regard to flow. He seems to force technique in several places. Maybe training on tatami will smooth out the sweeps from the trapped kicks.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:02 PM   #30
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Your post raises a very common question and suggests a topic that I dont see discussed often.

If aikido is the way of aiki, we might do well to know what aiki means. We can see from aikiweb that the term is still largely undefined, and is up for huge debate at the moment. For that matter, I'm not sure we're all that clear on what do means, but at least there is enough of a common consensus or the term is unimportant enough to us that we dont go rounds and rounds and rounds about it. So, what does aiki mean?

Something I have noticed in a couple arts and that your post reminded me of is that folks do not train well around strikes and flow. Watch a bitchin Bruce Lee nunchaku kata. Holy crap, there are a lot of potential strikes there and a buttload of flow. However, take those chucks, start that kata about 3 feet from a heavy bag, flow really well for a few seconds, and then step into range. The moment the chuck hits the bag all that lovely movement (laminar flow, if you will) is gone and turbulence is introduced. Same with punching a real person. Successful atemi severely changes flow. Those of us training martially could do well to experience that.

I think the first video in that post was pretty realistic and pretty good aikido. The attacks were a bit slow and a little empty, but it is training/testing. What I liked was that the punches were taken seriously and dealt with through covering or small evasions. It was clear to me that the white gi guy respected the effect (the break in flow) blue gi's punches would have. And yes, sloppy-assed haymakers are the order of the day in what I've seen of real attacks and fights. That kind of training doesn't look good to some aikidoka eyes, but it looks real and effective to me. Block and evade until you get the attack that fits the criteria for the techniques you have installed and available at the moment. Hmm, that sentence is related to my current (admittedly limited and external) idea of aiki.

I did not much like the second video because it seemed to combine the best of complaints against aikido from both sides of the aisle. The attacks were real enough (but really empty), but not respected. Instead, they were waded through and much ignored to get to grappling range, Better be really well conditioned to do that reliably. That aikidoka is in for the rude awakening of a real kick to the side of the knee or pop in the liver. Nage does not look comfortable with the change in flow that uke's resistance brings, and kind of hops in and out of range and technique without much regard to flow. He seems to force technique in several places. Maybe training on tatami will smooth out the sweeps from the trapped kicks.
Very true. The main difference in the two videos, other than style, is that the second vid Uke really steps it up and doesn't pull any punches, so having to wrestle a couple techniques in may be necessary at times. In the first vid, the attacker is being a little nicer (and somewhat more realistic at the same time), which makes it easier for Nage. I love both the styles. I'd definitely recommend checking them out as they train intensely either with or against strikes. If you want more vids, look in the suggestions or search 'Mizu Aikido' (guys with the blue gis) or Hatenkai Aikido (the one where the sensei has a navy blue gi). I love watching both the styles and their ideas of Aikido against less traditional attacks.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:43 PM   #31
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Krystal wrote: If aikido is the way of aiki, we might do well to know what aiki means. We can see from aikiweb that the term is still largely undefined, and is up for huge debate at the moment. For that matter, I'm not sure we're all that clear on what do means, but at least there is enough of a common consensus or the term is unimportant enough to us that we dont go rounds and rounds and rounds about it. So, what does aiki mean?

Ueshiba said repeatedly that "Aiki is opposing forces (in you)." It wasn't meant to be just a spiritual concept, it was a very real, physical one that he demonstrated again and again.

Aiki is the balance and management of created and maintained internal tension -- the dynamic tension of dual opposing forces -- within the body, in such a way that allows the individual manipulate power at will. Ueshiba stated this himself, referring to the friction created within the body by inducing and matching those two forces.

The two forces have names: In and Yo (or Yin and Yang). Or, rather, the two forces display the qualities of the Taoist concepts of In/Yin and Yo/Yang. When In and Yo are kept in complementary balance with each other, they represent the harmonizing or matching (ai) of the energy (ki) in its dual forms of In and Yo.

A person creates aiki by manipulating his or her body to create those dual opposing forces within it -- in the form of spiraling energy (the internal movements send force on a spiral path) -- and then controlling the relationship between those forces to affect the channeling of power. To do this, the body is used in unconventional ways – in part, the In-Yo of tandan and meimon (dantian and mingmen in Chinese), the spine, the "architecture" of the inner legs and femoral region, the interaction of body with the ground, the exploitation of the diaphragm and inner body cavities, and of intent as the driver.

It's a much more complex process than just using "breath," timing, stepping and turning in an external model...no matter how relaxed you are, that still is an external range of motions which can only superficially mimic what a person creating aiki is doing with his innards. It all starts inside you, which makes it invisible to onlookers until someone touches you. Then you can see the outward expression in their body's reaction to what you are doing inside you. This is where aiki and IP influence ate-waza (atemi), making it a very different game.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-29-2012 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:56 AM   #32
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

If you want to be able to do what those guys in the vids are doing then go and do that. I did Judo and Jujutsu for years and have no problem with that way of training at all but I have stuck with Aikido because it led me to something different - aiki. I do Aikido for aiki. So, when I see people doing that stuff and calling it Aikido I just laugh. To me, no one in their right mind does Aikido mainly for self-defence. It 'can' work - but for most people it does not and never will, no matter how much they tell themselves that it does. Why? Because they are just barking up the wrong tree (go do Jujutsu or something). It took me quite a few years to figure it out for myself. And as to what aiki is - well, that should be your first question. And the next should be how do I get more of it. And then, just get on with it.

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Old 12-30-2012, 03:57 AM   #33
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
you and you both go crashing to the ground because you lack the stability and structure to stay on your feet and then you're off looking for something else to cross-train in (unless you've already done that) to get that and maybe still wondering how O'sensei was able to do what he did while really only training in one thing... ymmv
OSensei trained many different arts. The fundamentals of any art should teach you balance and stability. The one off situations or maybe they are more common than that....where someone falls into you or perhaps you put your foot down wrong and you go down. That is part of "combat" if you will. That is where you hope your training has taught you how to overcome the unexpected or unintended.

Last edited by Lyle Laizure : 12-30-2012 at 04:07 AM.

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Old 12-30-2012, 04:00 AM   #34
Rupert Atkinson
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Afterthought: Once you get an idea of aiki, I think the effectiveness (not the power) of your strikes will begin to improve beyond measure.

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Old 12-30-2012, 06:03 AM   #35
TokyoZeplin
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Logan Light wrote: View Post
Sounds interesting. May have to look into that. How, in you opinion, can atemi follow Aiki principles?
For the first part of my post, here you go (sadly, there are almost no free videos or demonstrations online, as it's not very widely practised).
http://www.masamune-store.com/sakura...DV_SAK_U03.cfm

In Gozo Shioda's book, Aikido Shugyo, Aikido is in many ways described considerably more harsh than we hear it these days, with a lot more resistance, more "alive training", and a lot more pain.
When he tells stories of various fights, atemi features in all of them. And not merely "distraction" atemi, but often using punches (as it is described anyway) to finish a fight.
For my opinion (and purely, my opinion), I would say the core principle of Aikido is more of how to use body mechanics, how to use your opponents force against them, and how to blend with their movements, rather than a set core of grabbling techniques. This, again, is bound a bit in what Gozo Shioda says, when he (not a direct quote) said that Aikido techniques were more there for teaching you the Aikido principles, not to be used exactly as they are taught.

Quote:
Barry Johnston wrote: View Post
Occasionally, in the advanced adult classes, we will have free form practice where the Nage has no knowledge of what type of attack will be presented.
If Aikido is taught as self-defence, don't you think it's quite late ("advanced adult classes") to be using such training techniques?
Quite obviously better than nothing, but I would feel such training should be thrown in there from the second the person has any valid chance of defending themselves.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:41 AM   #36
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

@ OP:

Atemi is part of the flow....for me it is not about one strike and then throw. Aikido is about moving with the attack, blending with what is and becoming nage in each situation. Give yourself some time to really have an open mind about aikido before you start changing it.

If you want to play with other things... do... but give yourself the gift of having an open heart in class. I have seen so many young men leave because it is not about real fighting...when they just don't understand that Aikido is so much more than it seems.

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Old 12-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #37
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
OSensei trained many different arts. The fundamentals of any art should teach you balance and stability. The one off situations or maybe they are more common than that....where someone falls into you or perhaps you put your foot down wrong and you go down. That is part of "combat" if you will. That is where you hope your training has taught you how to overcome the unexpected or unintended.
Oh sure, should, but I don't think aikido does really. Most of the time we're avoiding contact and/or not really getting our balance messed with too much while we're moving. That's why I don't think what I said can really be considered a one off situation.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:25 AM   #38
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
If you want to be able to do what those guys in the vids are doing then go and do that. I did Judo and Jujutsu for years and have no problem with that way of training at all but I have stuck with Aikido because it led me to something different - aiki. I do Aikido for aiki. So, when I see people doing that stuff and calling it Aikido I just laugh. To me, no one in their right mind does Aikido mainly for self-defence. It 'can' work - but for most people it does not and never will, no matter how much they tell themselves that it does. Why? Because they are just barking up the wrong tree (go do Jujutsu or something). It took me quite a few years to figure it out for myself. And as to what aiki is - well, that should be your first question. And the next should be how do I get more of it. And then, just get on with it.
I can think of a few people who would disagree with that.

How are those videos not Aikido? Because the strikes aren't traditional? Because it's 'live' and more resistance is introduced? Real violence very rarely ends like how you train it in the dojo so just because it doesn't look as fluid as we may train it, doesn't mean it's not real Aikido.

I don't know why people are so quick to say something isn't Aikido because they take a different route. To me, Aikido is a very open art and as long as it's practiced with all principles in mind and still keeps to the core foundations of Aikido, then I still believe it to be aikido. No doubt that there's some who have strayed far from the path of Aiki but I rather enjoy watching those who have geared their style more towards combat.

I enjoy those styles because they at least try something different and train effectively. I know of many Aikidoka who would get killed because of a huge misconception that they have of violence and how to react to it.

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
For the first part of my post, here you go (sadly, there are almost no free videos or demonstrations online, as it's not very widely practised).
http://www.masamune-store.com/sakura...DV_SAK_U03.cfm

In Gozo Shioda's book, Aikido Shugyo, Aikido is in many ways described considerably more harsh than we hear it these days, with a lot more resistance, more "alive training", and a lot more pain.
When he tells stories of various fights, atemi features in all of them. And not merely "distraction" atemi, but often using punches (as it is described anyway) to finish a fight.
For my opinion (and purely, my opinion), I would say the core principle of Aikido is more of how to use body mechanics, how to use your opponents force against them, and how to blend with their movements, rather than a set core of grabbling techniques. This, again, is bound a bit in what Gozo Shioda says, when he (not a direct quote) said that Aikido techniques were more there for teaching you the Aikido principles, not to be used exactly as they are taught..
I can appreciate that. I'll have to try and get one of his books. I think that outlook is much more practical for self-defense but so many Aikidoka think that's 'too aggressive', most which who have never been in a violent situation.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:32 PM   #39
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Logan Light wrote: View Post
I can appreciate that. I'll have to try and get one of his books. I think that outlook is much more practical for self-defense but so many Aikidoka think that's 'too aggressive', most which who have never been in a violent situation.
You might want to look into Yoshinkan Aikido in general (Gozo Shioda's Aikido).
The book I was quoting (well, semi-quoting) from is Gozo Shioda - Aikido Shugyo. It's not a technique book, but rather a mix between essays and self-biographical work. I found it quite interesting.

You might also be interested in the DVD's by Joe Thambu (who also trains Yoshinkan Aikido, btw):
http://www.budovideos.com/shop/custo...roductid=20696
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:49 PM   #40
Hilary
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

While I applaud everyone who tries to train against real attacks (and more should), I don’t see that done well in either of the videos. In the first one I see a larger yudansha attacking (poorly) smaller kyu ranked students. Even when the kyu/uke is wielding a “weapon” the senior student attacks, which goes against virtually every armed vs. unarmed orthodoxy I have ever encountered. Once contact is made I see a lot of fighting over the lock, now it is just a brute force contest aided by a smattering of aikido mechanics, balance is rarely broken and the take downs are almost all forced by the joint lock or protecting of the joint. These have become a force on force contest which completely side steps the aspects of the art that make Aikido unique. I like what they are trying to do; just not the way they are doing it.

The second video is obviously style/formalized. Poor knife skills are then shelved, while the unarmed person struggles to make a throw while ignoring the now dormant weapon hand. The focus seems to be on I must throw him rather than how to manage the conflict. This is obviously a more formalized training drill given the odd/intermittent use of the stabbing fan. The drill should be commended, but the combatants should be instructed to deal with the attack and flow from opportunity to opportunity rather than just struggling to turn the first clinch into a throw. Lock the joints to control the shoulder, to move the center, not lock the joint and crank until they submit. Both of these guys are going to get seriously cut if they deal with knives that way even if the attacker is an amateur.

In the posts about the single attack some seem to be referring to uke, some to nage. We often train off of the first, second, third, fourth strike. Statistics aside, strikers typically do not expect that the first or second strike to be the knock out. A series of strikes are utilized to set up the knock out. As an aside, the Gracies policy of entering for a takedown assumes the first punch is not a knockout and so they can take the hit to enter, take down and pin the opponent.

For kyus, and while formally reviewing basics, and learning new techniques, the single strike attack is appropriate. If you are yudansha and you only train this way then you will be surprised by the real world. You should be parrying multiple strike attacks finding the techniques, then abandoning and moving to secondary and tertiary locks/techniques if the first one is not perfect.

Yudansha who have no other training should go find a striker and learn the basics of how to hit; reverse punch, back first, palm heel and shuto strikes from the asian arts, jab, cross, hook and upper cut from the western arts. Basic front, side, back, roundhouse, and crescent (for when you are feeling festive) kicks. You don’t have to master them, but you should know how to throw them well enough to train your partners and to understand their proper form and use. Failing to understand how to hit (in my mind) indicates a fundamental disrespect for martial theory and indicates you have chosen to live in a bubble of your own awesomeness. It is a martial art treat, it as such; know what to expect in the real world.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:38 AM   #41
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

don't know if you have read this article from George Ledyard or not http://aikieast.blogspot.com/2009/08...in-aikido.html

something to consider, folks, including striking arts, don't normally getting hit so they don't really ready for the psychological and emotional impacts of being hit (pun intended). like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ecF8XSk7zI . lesson learn here, you tensed up, it hurts alot, like a mother-in-law kind of hurt.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-31-2012, 05:26 PM   #42
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
don't know if you have read this article from George Ledyard or not http://aikieast.blogspot.com/2009/08...in-aikido.html

something to consider, folks, including striking arts, don't normally getting hit so they don't really ready for the psychological and emotional impacts of being hit (pun intended). like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ecF8XSk7zI . lesson learn here, you tensed up, it hurts alot, like a mother-in-law kind of hurt.
Was he literally doing push ups on another guy's face? Never seen someone train that way though and I've always learned to tense up the body right before receiving a hit but that was a very different style. Cool vid, though.
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:47 AM   #43
Michael Varin
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Afterthought: Once you get an idea of aiki, I think the effectiveness (not the power) of your strikes will begin to improve beyond measure.
I think you are correct!

But I get the sense that the original poster won't be able to grasp what you are alluding to.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:44 AM   #44
Krystal Locke
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Afterthought: Once you get an idea of aiki, I think the effectiveness (not the power) of your strikes will begin to improve beyond measure.
What do you mean by effectiveness? Improved targeting and accuracy, efficiency in energy expended, damage inflicted, penetration through defenses, something else?
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:38 AM   #45
Cliff Judge
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
In the posts about the single attack some seem to be referring to uke, some to nage. We often train off of the first, second, third, fourth strike. Statistics aside, strikers typically do not expect that the first or second strike to be the knock out. A series of strikes are utilized to set up the knock out. As an aside, the Gracies policy of entering for a takedown assumes the first punch is not a knockout and so they can take the hit to enter, take down and pin the opponent.

For kyus, and while formally reviewing basics, and learning new techniques, the single strike attack is appropriate. If you are yudansha and you only train this way then you will be surprised by the real world. You should be parrying multiple strike attacks finding the techniques, then abandoning and moving to secondary and tertiary locks/techniques if the first one is not perfect.
It sounds as though you advocate for keeping regular Aikido classes to regular Aikido training, and practicing application versus skilled striker as an extracurricular matter. I agree. My general opinion is that if you are facing someone who is taking the time to set you up with jabs, then you are in a fight you chose to be in.

The challenge here is that to go anywhere with that type of training requires skills in fighting. So you have to have those (because you used to in college or something), or you have to go and get them. It turns out that developing fighting skills is one of the most demanding things a human being can do! You won't be making it to the Aikido dojo as much and you can forget picking up a third martial art you may have been interested in....or going to any of these seminars...

It is really a big challenge and requires a lot of commitment, and you are basically training to make your Aikido good for situations Aikido was never meant for, i.e. combat sports and drunken fights.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:08 AM   #46
phitruong
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Logan Light wrote: View Post
Was he literally doing push ups on another guy's face? Never seen someone train that way though and I've always learned to tense up the body right before receiving a hit but that was a very different style. Cool vid, though.
yes, he did. Kevin Choate sensei was doing the systema thing. that sort of push-up trained a few things. nage, the person who did the push-up on every part of uke's body, learned how to stablize the wrists on different body parts which will help him hitting body parts, since the body surface isn't uniform, thus, hitting a person with your barehand is much different than hitting a punching bag. also, the push-up is very relax, which teaches nage on how to deliver power without tensing any part of the body, even on impact, which is quite different from the karate or kungfu punch where they tell you to tense your body on moment of your fist impacted the body. also, doing push-up on a live body, it somewhat prepared you for the psychological and emotional aspect of hitting a live body. on the uke side of the fence, you learn to breath, with different breathing patterns, and to relax and channel the pressure of the fists elsewhere. it prepares you to physically, psychologically, and emotionally dealing with getting hits. lots of time nage will start out with lighter pressure, not full push-up, then gradually, over time, increase the pressure until uke feels uncomfortable, then nage would back down a bit. once uke gets his/her breathing and relaxing back, then nage progressively increases the pressure. with the breathing, uke is almost working on a neigong called iron shirt. this is now moving into the realm of IP/IS stuffs which is a bit beyong me.

if you look at the video of Kevin Choate when he was hitting the other person, and look at his position and the other position, then ask yourself, how many aikido techniques that have such relative position which allows him to deliver that strike. don't forget his other arm can deliver the same strike from the back at the same time. now for folks who doing IP/IS stuffs, they can deliver an incredible amount of power at that range, that would take all the fight out of you, and not with just their fists, but with their shoulders and their other body parts.

from my point of view, one should learn to effectively deliver atemi that is part of your aikido. one of the post mentioned someone deliver a kiss before the throw. i am ok with that, as long as the person is female and attractive.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:32 PM   #47
Hilary
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

Cliff -- I don't view this as extracurricular training really. Yes the "standard curriculum" of your particular flavor of Aikido is the major emphasis. But if we are to keep this art dynamic and relevant as a martial art (as opposed to a philosophically driven exercise routine) we do need to create complete students.

This does not mean they need to break coconuts with their palms or understand the nuances of sambo. It does mean the fundamental attacks outlined previously, should be understood and utilized in training. As stated they don't have to master these techniques but they do have to understand what they are and use them regularly. Throw a slow straight punch followed by a half speed uppercut, and nage's fudoshin often crumbles into a pile of retreating confusion (and I'm talking yudansha here).

Kyus should certainly be taught and occasionally drilled on the fundamentals of hand strikes and kicks. To master these techniques a student would have to drill on one's own time, but a regular revisiting of the basic principle of striking surface alignment and body mechanics, both the attacking and parrying thereof should occur. Most dojos have people who have cross trained, hopefully including the chief instructor, who could review these basics on a rotating schedule.

"It is really a big challenge and requires a lot of commitment, and you are basically training to make your Aikido good for situations Aikido was never meant for, i.e. combat sports and drunken fights."

Not my intent to make this a sport form, but drunken jackass defense is certainly part of what this is used for; stupid drunks qualify for "least amount of required force" in my book. If you are circling your opponent with your hands up, you are sparring and not doing Aikido. When uke is chasing you, slightly over extending, because nage's is deftly leading uke and controlling distance/opportunity, when they have to turn to follow your lead and are thrown on the turn, then we are having a fine Aikido moment here.

In 2013 you are significantly more likely to be attacked by a jab-cross-hook compo than someone running at you, their hand over head ready to shomen uchi you into the next century. Train to the principles, practice the classical techniques, but also incorporate current martial methodology to keep the art relevant.

Last edited by Hilary : 01-01-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:33 PM   #48
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
... now for folks who doing IP/IS stuffs, they can deliver an incredible amount of power at that range, that would take all the fight out of you, and not with just their fists, but with their shoulders and their other body parts.
That is the ate-waza I was referring to in my post. Ate-waza employs the unified and connected body, regardless of what delivery point is used.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:08 PM   #49
Gary David
 
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
Cliff -- I don't view this as extracurricular training really. Yes the "standard curriculum" of your particular flavor of Aikido is the major emphasis. But if we are to keep this art dynamic and relevant as a martial art (as opposed to a philosophically driven exercise routine) we do need to create complete students. .............
Hilary
Are you folks training at speed working Walter's approach of continuous attacks? Give Walter my hello's.......
Gary
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:18 PM   #50
Cliff Judge
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Re: Atemi and Aikido

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Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
In 2013 you are significantly more likely to be attacked by a jab-cross-hook compo
I doubt it. Why would someone throw a low-strength punch at you unless you had thrown down? If somebody wants to use force on you for some end (kill you, rob you, abduct you, etc), they are not going to waste their time standing in plain virew boxing with you. You are better off learning how to handle unexpected, forceful attacks, and learning how to stay out of fights you can avoid.

It's a valuable thing to learn on the side but too much of it makes you fight, which I think tends to spell trouble.
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