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Old 12-16-2012, 06:39 PM   #1
Chris Li
 
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Aiki no Rentai

New blog post!

Aiki no Rentai: The Conditioned Body of Yukiyoshi Sagawa, Part 1 - Keisetsu Yoshimaru and "Aikido no Ogi"


Best,

Chris

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Old 12-16-2012, 08:55 PM   #2
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Nice Chris. There was something like this posted on a french (I think it was french!) site and I got it through google translate. It was readable... Is this some of the same stuff? If so, I was wondering a few weeks ago if you'd ever go back to any of that.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:11 PM   #3
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Nice Chris. There was something like this posted on a french (I think it was french!) site and I got it through google translate. It was readable... Is this some of the same stuff? If so, I was wondering a few weeks ago if you'd ever go back to any of that.
Eric translated an article from Hiden into French - that's probably what you're thinking about. Some of the graphics (the Henko and the Furibo) are from that article, the rest is from "Aikido no Ogi".

I have the article in Japanese too, maybe someday...

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-17-2012, 05:50 AM   #4
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

クリースさん、
その論文をここに載せてくれる?^^

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Old 12-17-2012, 06:22 AM   #5
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Great post Chris

Sorry for being dim, but what is Henko Ashi?

Regards

Chris
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:56 AM   #6
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Dear Chris

When I read this part of the article...

Quote:
The Aiki-age of Sagawa Dojo is like this. Absolutely no bending the wrists, close your armpits, focus your power on the point at which you are grabbed (Aiki is an internal sense, so this is difficult), relax your shoulders and raise your hands up without changing. That's all.
...it reminded me of this from a while back on another thread:

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
「手を常に'ゥ顔のように開け」
"Always open your hand like a morning glory ("asagao")"


-Sokaku Takeda

And here's one by Yukiyoshi Sagawa that I think has not generally been made available in English:

8/28/1971
I was told by Takeda Sensei to open my hand in the way that a Morning Glory ("Asagao") blooms, but I think that this means to open the hand while rotating slightly. I conceived of my Aiki while thinking about this kind of thing.

Best,

Chris
And also this photo which is on one of the monuments on Ai Road in former-Iwama:



Carl
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:20 AM   #7
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
繧ッ繝ェ繝シ繧ケ縺輔"縲
縺昴ョ隲----繧'縺"縺"縺ォ霈峨○縺ヲ縺上l繧具シ滂シセシセ
Sent you a PM...

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-17-2012, 09:27 AM   #8
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Dear Chris

When I read this part of the article...

...it reminded me of this from a while back on another thread:

And also this photo which is on one of the monuments on Ai Road in former-Iwama:



Carl
Morihei was pretty rigorous about Asagao, if you watch the old films and pictures. Kisshomaru was too, as far as I recall, although I don't remember him ever mentioning it specifically. Sometimes Kisshomaru would mention "te-gatana" - but people seem to interpret that differently than Asagao.

Saito used to complain about how "some people" held their hands, IIRC.

The background image on www.aikidosangenkai.org is actually a photo of a kimono fabric with....an Asagao pattern.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-17-2012, 09:27 AM   #9
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

the "i" shown up on my computer as "l" which my old going-blind eyes thought the title of the article is "Aiki no Rental". so i thought what sort of artile be in Aiki no Rental. some sort of eviction Aiki? or maybe some sort of landlord slum aiki. definitely new.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:30 AM   #10
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Great post Chris

Sorry for being dim, but what is Henko Ashi?

Regards

Chris
Basically, tai-no-henko (tenkan) - the version demonstrated in the graphic appears to be similar to the Yoshinkan version of Hiriki-no-yosei-ni, but not nearly as exaggerated (I'm not saying the Yoshinkan version is right or wrong).

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-17-2012, 09:31 AM   #11
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the "i" shown up on my computer as "l" which my old going-blind eyes thought the title of the article is "Aiki no Rental". so i thought what sort of artile be in Aiki no Rental. some sort of eviction Aiki? or maybe some sort of landlord slum aiki. definitely new.
Shh, we don't want people figure out that they can get this stuff at Redbox....

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-17-2012, 09:16 PM   #12
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Thanks for translating, Chris.

It's what the aiki men of yore weren't saying, that I'd love to read, though.
Their obfuscation of what they were doing with the rest of their body... the sin of omission and the distraction methods of a prestidigitator when they say... "watch my hands... at no time do they leave my wrists!"
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:59 AM   #13
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Thanks for the link Chris! My mailbox is full so and too lazy to delete messages so Ill just thank you here .

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:22 AM   #14
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Thanks for translating, Chris.

It's what the aiki men of yore weren't saying, that I'd love to read, though.
Their obfuscation of what they were doing with the rest of their body... the sin of omission and the distraction methods of a prestidigitator when they say... "watch my hands... at no time do they leave my wrists!"
Yes, what is being said in this translation is not the whole story, the core substance that makes aiki work is left out - is this by design or was it just not transmitted to this guy? also, the aiki age description does not jive with what how I understand it to work - I agree with not bending wrist, but the just lift hands part sounds wrong to me - no mention of elbow power here

Greg
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:49 AM   #15
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Yes, what is being said in this translation is not the whole story, the core substance that makes aiki work is left out - is this by design or was it just not transmitted to this guy? also, the aiki age description does not jive with what how I understand it to work - I agree with not bending wrist, but the just lift hands part sounds wrong to me - no mention of elbow power here

Greg
Yes, it's pretty sparse. I wouldn't look for too many specifics, but it gives an interesting (to me) look at their general approach and point of view.

Part of it is that the folks in Sagawa Dojo are pretty closemouthed (the person who made that quote said that himself), and part of it is that the language and terminology don't seem that well developed in many cases.

One of the things that interested me about that first quote is the clear division (but interedependance) between IP (ie "Martial power") and Aiki that was made. Also that, as in the Sagawa quotes, the training is focused on the creation of a certain kind of body.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Li : 12-18-2012 at 09:55 AM.

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Old 12-18-2012, 12:06 PM   #16
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Yes, the hints were there - the references to conditioning the body, "strengthening" the hips and legs, and the mention of "Asagao." No details of what these things really mean, nor their significance, role and purpose, and yet they were at least stated.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:55 PM   #17
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Morihei was pretty rigorous about Asagao, if you watch the old films and pictures. Kisshomaru was too, as far as I recall, although I don't remember him ever mentioning it specifically. Sometimes Kisshomaru would mention "te-gatana" - but people seem to interpret that differently than Asagao.

Saito used to complain about how "some people" held their hands, IIRC.

The background image on www.aikidosangenkai.org is actually a photo of a kimono fabric with....an Asagao pattern.

Best,

Chris
Thanks Chris

What I thought was interesting was the difference: Keeping the hands straight vs. the "slight rotation". Am I right in thinking that while Takeda and Osensei emphasised the "te-no-kaeshi", Sagawa changed it to keeping the hands straight? I notice Akuzawa Sensei of the Aunkai also keeps the hands straight. I haven't found any videos of other IP/Aiki exponents doing the exercise to compare, but it seems that even te sabaki can be viewed as "waza". In other words, could stripping it down be a way of going for "raw" kokyu-ryoku outside of the method of deployment?

NB: Suwari Kokyu-Ho is one of only two "techniques" that Osensei didn't seem to mind having written down in a list of rules as something that should be done in daily practice.

Carl
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:42 PM   #18
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Thanks Chris

What I thought was interesting was the difference: Keeping the hands straight vs. the "slight rotation". Am I right in thinking that while Takeda and Osensei emphasised the "te-no-kaeshi", Sagawa changed it to keeping the hands straight? I notice Akuzawa Sensei of the Aunkai also keeps the hands straight. I haven't found any videos of other IP/Aiki exponents doing the exercise to compare, but it seems that even te sabaki can be viewed as "waza". In other words, could stripping it down be a way of going for "raw" kokyu-ryoku outside of the method of deployment?

NB: Suwari Kokyu-Ho is one of only two "techniques" that Osensei didn't seem to mind having written down in a list of rules as something that should be done in daily practice.

Carl
I'm thinking that the quote was talking more about the bending and hooking that goes on with the wrists so often in kokyo-ho rather than anything different from what Takeda or Ueshiba was doing.

I don't know about Ark - but I'll try and remember to ask Rob about it when I see him next month.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-21-2012, 07:20 AM   #19
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm thinking that the quote was talking more about the bending and hooking that goes on with the wrists so often in kokyo-ho rather than anything different from what Takeda or Ueshiba was doing.

I don't know about Ark - but I'll try and remember to ask Rob about it when I see him next month.

Best,

Chris
Thanks. Just to clarify: I thought Aiki-age was more or less equivalent to kokyu-ho (suwari or otherwise, solo or paired) . Hence my interest in this:

Quote:
The Aiki-age of Sagawa Dojo is like this. Absolutely no bending the wrists,
So my question was whether Sagawa sensei changed Aiki-age (assuming it is equivalent to Kokyu-ho).

Carl
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:10 AM   #20
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Thanks. Just to clarify: I thought Aiki-age was more or less equivalent to kokyu-ho (suwari or otherwise, solo or paired) . Hence my interest in this:

So my question was whether Sagawa sensei changed Aiki-age (assuming it is equivalent to Kokyu-ho).

Carl
My personal opinion? No - but that's just my impression...

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-21-2012, 06:26 PM   #21
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Thanks Chris

What I thought was interesting was the difference: Keeping the hands straight vs. the "slight rotation". Am I right in thinking that while Takeda and Osensei emphasised the "te-no-kaeshi", Sagawa changed it to keeping the hands straight? I notice Akuzawa Sensei of the Aunkai also keeps the hands straight. I haven't found any videos of other IP/Aiki exponents doing the exercise to compare, but it seems that even te sabaki can be viewed as "waza". In other words, could stripping it down be a way of going for "raw" kokyu-ryoku outside of the method of deployment?

NB: Suwari Kokyu-Ho is one of only two "techniques" that Osensei didn't seem to mind having written down in a list of rules as something that should be done in daily practice.

Carl
I keep the hands straight. That said, talking about the hands this way is ridiculous (yes I know some heavy hitters say different. I don't care). All it does is keep you from the real goods-perhaps purposefully.
Turning the hands up or down is totally unnecessary. In fact were we to consider "turning the hands thereare far more important things to be doing!!. This type of turning you are talking about adds nothing to what you are doing internally and externally to create the technique. There are reasons for straight hands -partly having to do within a training model to induce intent and then yin/yang and otherwise mostly having to do with maintaining an unattached mind without any hand motion....yet. The intent is in your whole body, creating a neutral point on-contact that becomes the support from dantian. From the there, all sort of interesting things occur; some of which is internal some of which is external. Hence IP/aiki. You really cannot do effective aiki without IP. It's all just mimiced motion that can produce okay waza, but it is far from being..."it."

More Taiji classics along the same line:
Not the weight of a feather can be added, nor a fly can alight that does not induce rotation. This gives opportunity for yin and yang. This is the comprehension of energy.

Another great admonition is from a taiji grand master. All this talk of aiki, where is yin? Where is yang? How then is there aiki? You cannot retend Dantian. You will be found out.

So, rotation alone simply will not work, and it is hardly the point. Yin yang is the point. Manifesting yin and yang is where you separate the high level people from ...well....everybody else! Utilizing yin and yang is everything. This is what Ueshiba said as well. All the models and all the waza aren't much without yin and yang.
I continue to demonstrate arm movements against a push or grab, that do nothing. Then, I do the exact, same, move and uke is off balance. Then I do it again without yin/yang...nothing...then turn on yin and yang...off balance they go. I just had a Shihan under a Tohei lineage going nuts trying to figure it out. "You did the same thing!! What made the difference?" So I quoted Ueshiba. "Why can you not do these things? Simple. You do not understand Yin and yang!"

Dan
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:33 PM   #22
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Quote:
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Thanks. Just to clarify: I thought Aiki-age was more or less equivalent to kokyu-ho (suwari or otherwise, solo or paired) . Hence my interest in this:
Carl
Not really, but to put it plainly;
Aiki-age is a hand turning waza for those who don't know deeper things.
Aiki-age is everything for those who do know deeper things.
I would say the same about the original purpose of Kokyu-ho, but I just haven't met anyone in the art who knows the deeper teaching of kokyu-ho or who can't simply be stopped. I keep hearing about it, I just haven't seen or felt it.
Jamming or stopping people "who do get it" can be quite a difficult task. I stand people back up on their feet from seiza with kokyu ho, but I am not really using my arms to do it. You can copy it with a big muscle movement, but such is the way of people trying to mimic.
Quote:
So my question was whether Sagawa sensei changed Aiki-age (assuming it is equivalent to Kokyu-ho).
Maybe a better question is what did he say in class and what was ...he...actually doing.
Then again what is ...aiki age that could be changed?
What creates aiki-age cannot truly be changed, while the external movement can be altered all over the place to look like many things.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-21-2012 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:41 AM   #23
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Thanks for the information Dan

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I keep the hands straight. That said, talking about the hands this way is ridiculous (yes I know some heavy hitters say different. I don't care). All it does is keep you from the real goods-perhaps purposefully.
So Takeda and Osensei both may have hidden the real goods behind the mere "form" of turning the hands?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Maybe a better question is what did he say in class and what was ...he...actually doing.
Then again what is ...aiki age that could be changed?
What creates aiki-age cannot truly be changed, while the external movement can be altered all over the place to look like many things.
Dan
What I'm asking, which relates to the possibility of asagao being a mere facade for hiding the real goods, is whether Sagawa changed that external movement for the very purpose of focusing on the internal process of raising the hands.

Carl
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:48 AM   #24
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

Carl
No time for a lengthy post...got to go train all day.
Yes, Asagao is not a simple hand movement thing, it is a body principle involving dantian, elbow power and fure Aiki. Though I imagine just about everyone learned it and sees it ads a hand movement!!

As for the Japanese way of teaching....Sometimes it's fascinating to see profound things being reduced to an obvious movements and people think what they see is all there is to it. I have no opinion on why they do what they do. My choice is to explain them and actually teach people to do these things.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-22-2012 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:29 PM   #25
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Re: Aiki no Rentai

"Aiki no Rentai: The Conditioned Body of Yukiyoshi Sagawa" - in French, thanks to Budo Shugyosha. The original English version is here.

Best,

Chris

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