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Old 12-18-2012, 07:46 AM   #51
gregstec
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

I agree with Walter, I do not think anyone here is saying anyone deserves to be a victim of violence due to the various scenarios mentioned here- but, those type of scenarios can bring on violence from those with deficiencies in their moral behavior for a myriad of reasons and the prudent thing is to be aware of potential threats and take appropriate steps to avoid them.

Greg
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:52 AM   #52
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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I was pointing out the causal relationship. If you act like an asshole people are going to act accordingly. If you poke a bear and he attacks you there is a causal relationship. They are not innocent in the interaction. Can the situation be handled better? - sure. Should you be shocked when it's not? - no. Staring people down is an aggressive act. If you act aggressively toward someone they will act aggressively towards you. If you don't regulate your own behavior eventually someone will regulate it for you.
I agree with what I think you're trying to say, but I disagree with your diction. Words and phrases like "act aggressively" imply a conscious choice to provoke, harass or intimidate; "staring down" assumes an intent that may not be present; "regulate" implies that the "regulator" is upholding some kind of order. Acting with an intention to provoke, by deliberately stepping over another person's reasonable boundaries, is not the same as acting in a manner that does provoke because of another person's poorly defined boundaries (not "your rights end where my nose begins", but "I will jump in front of where you're walking and then blame you for pushing me"). That's not "regulating", that's drawing an unreasonable line that a reasonable person can't help but trip over and then calling it a transgression when they do. The distinction matters, very much so. A person walking late at night is not "acting like an asshole", "poking a bear" or "acting aggressively" -- let's be very, very clear about that.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:36 AM   #53
Brian Beach
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I agree with what I think you're trying to say, but I disagree with your diction. Words and phrases like "act aggressively" imply a conscious choice to provoke, harass or intimidate; "staring down" assumes an intent that may not be present; "regulate" implies that the "regulator" is upholding some kind of order. Acting with an intention to provoke, by deliberately stepping over another person's reasonable boundaries, is not the same as acting in a manner that does provoke because of another person's poorly defined boundaries (not "your rights end where my nose begins", but "I will jump in front of where you're walking and then blame you for pushing me"). That's not "regulating", that's drawing an unreasonable line that a reasonable person can't help but trip over and then calling it a transgression when they do. The distinction matters, very much so. A person walking late at night is not "acting like an asshole", "poking a bear" or "acting aggressively" -- let's be very, very clear about that.
I agree, I was representing one side. In your examples there is one that is acting outside the social norm.
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I will jump in front of where you're walking and then blame you for pushing me
That is the person who's behavior will be regulated, eventually.

You can be a generally nice person that occasionally makes a bad choice. Sometimes those choices come with unwanted consequences. Sometimes we are at the receiving end of another person's bad choices. Sometimes we are the regulator sometimes the one regulated, sometimes removing yourself from the situation post-haste is the best course of action. Either way we have a responsibility for our own actions and the part we play.

I think we are on the same page. Basically - Masakatsu Agatsu. Sometimes we need help and sometimes we need to help others.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:08 AM   #54
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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I agree, I was representing one side. In your examples there is one that is acting outside the social norm. That is the person who's behavior will be regulated, eventually.
Eh. This is a kind of sick use of the word "regulation", and I dislike it very much. The "regulation" you describe really doesn't have anything to do with right or wrong, or reasonable or unreasonable boundaries. It's a matter of might making right. If I'm powerful, I get to "regulate". I get to say what's "reasonable". Our world teems with examples of oppression in which the powerful "regulate" where others may walk, what they may wear, when and how they may speak. Regulation is civilized when it says that no one may speak with a bullhorn at 3 AM outside people's homes, no matter what it is you're saying. Regulation is uncivilized, and a sick, barbaric distortion of the term, when it takes the form of a powerful person (physically or otherwise) bellowing "Shut your pie-hole!" at a less powerful person who is saying something that the powerful person does not like, and then forcing the less powerful person to be silent.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:39 AM   #55
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Eh. This is a kind of sick use of the word "regulation", and I dislike it very much. The "regulation" you describe really doesn't have anything to do with right or wrong, or reasonable or unreasonable boundaries. It's a matter of might making right. If I'm powerful, I get to "regulate". I get to say what's "reasonable". Our world teems with examples of oppression in which the powerful "regulate" where others may walk, what they may wear, when and how they may speak. Regulation is civilized when it says that no one may speak with a bullhorn at 3 AM outside people's homes, no matter what it is you're saying. Regulation is uncivilized, and a sick, barbaric distortion of the term, when it takes the form of a powerful person (physically or otherwise) bellowing "Shut your pie-hole!" at a less powerful person who is saying something that the powerful person does not like, and then forcing the less powerful person to be silent.
You're not listening to what I'm saying. The person who is attempting to intimidate needs regulation... but feel free to rant on

Last edited by Brian Beach : 12-18-2012 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:13 AM   #56
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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The person who is attempting to intimidate needs regulation... but feel free to rant on
What you are saying is that the person that is attempting to intimidate needs to be taught a lesson.

So what you are saying is that if someone is staring at me, or if someone is chatting up my girlfriend I should teach that person a physical lesson? This is flawed thinking and will likely cause the lesson teacher to be arrested.

If I am out walking and someone physically attacks me I will defend myself, but not with the intent of teaching a lesson.

Lesson teaching is for the courts.

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Old 12-20-2012, 06:23 AM   #57
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

Mmm, yeah, gotta agree with Lyle. Brian, I didn't succeed in communicating my point. I think your idea of "regulating" needs closer examination; in my mind, it doesn't stand clear and separate from the simple notion of enforcement of the wishes of the more powerful over the less powerful. If someone stares at you and you decide they're being "aggressive", you can "regulate" if you're the more powerful one in the situation. If not, oh well, I guess "regulation" doesn't happen. And maybe, if it's something only the powerful can do, "regulation" is not a good word for it. Now call that a "rant" if you want.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:37 AM   #58
Walter Martindale
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

Wasn't there a movie about the wild west where a group of what were essentially "regulators" kept some form of "order" in a county/region? That may be the sort of "regulation" being discussed here, but it's not really what the general public views as "regulation"... is it?

I tend to avoid the parts of town where you get attacked for walking by (and I'm also getting old enough to not look like a threat - victim, perhaps, but not a threat) or looking at someone, but then sometimes you wander into the wrong neigbourhood. Doesn't mean you deserve a lickin'.

I recall once being in Boston - we were staying "across the river" from Harvard etc, when we were there for a rowing competition - the Head of the Charles. (turns out the district was at the time known as "the war zone" by the cops) After the regatta was over, we wandered into a corner "chicken" restaurant - all wearing the same team jackets. Well... some of the locals saw all these 6 foot tall (plus) guys in the same 'colours' and decided to get territorial. After a few minor fisticuffs and discussions of "going home and coming back armed" some of our number chatted with one who seemed to be a leader, and let them know we were a rowing team, in town from the west coast of Canada, flying out in the morning (if we were still alive) and in that particular restaurant looking for food, having raced (or in my case, coached) earlier in the day... When it was clear that we were not horning in on anyone's territory, things calmed down, we finished eating, went back to our digs, slept, flew home without incident.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:18 PM   #59
Michael Hackett
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

There are places and situations that are simply not safe to wander into for the average person. No one should ever be accosted or assaulted simply for walking in the wrong neighborhood or similar, but it does happen. That person doesn't deserve the result, but shouldn't be terribly surprised if something negative happens, even if they remain civil and faultless in their conduct. Obviously if one is looking for trouble and conducting himself in an uncivil and rude manner, he should control his own behavior (or regulate his own conduct) to avoid an incident. As Brian said, if he does not, his conduct is likely to be regulated (or corrected) by some entity, whether it be the criminal justice system, the civil courts, the displeasure of his own friends, or perhaps at the hands of another knucklehead who has a similar mindset. It didn't appear to me that Brian was suggesting that he had an obligation or a right to correct the behavior of another, but merely suggested the conduct would deserve correction in some manner and that it would eventually happen.

Each one of us has the right and should be free to walk down any street at any time. In most cases we are. But there are some places in the world, this country, and even in my home town where it isn't the best and safest idea. I can think of no place in the world where I could count on being safe if I chose to act aggressively, rudely or violently. Consequently I choose to regulate/control/temper my personal behavior so I'm not viewed as a dangerous knucklehead to others.

At least that's how I interpreted Brian's posts.

Michael
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:15 PM   #60
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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You're not listening to what I'm saying. The person who is attempting to intimidate needs regulation... but feel free to rant on
I think I hear what you're saying. When people step on our toes it's helpful to let them know so they can be more careful. In more extreme examples, it would be nice to think we could correct their behavior with a lesson, but one of the things I've come to associate with aggressive personalities is the pronounced lack of learning that tends to go with it. Where blind emotion does give way to the faculties of reason, it's usually just to generate excuses to reinforce the emotion. I grew up with a number of people who liked fighting, viewing it as THE mark of manhood apart from the other f-word. It takes something far more comprehensive than a momentary lesson to change attitudes like that; and in fact, a moment's "lesson" often only serves as fuel to a later fire. This isn't to say we shouldn't stand up for ourselves, but there's a fine line between needing to stand up for one's self and wanting to. The latter isn't so altruistic and socially-minded.
...not that you haven't already considered these things...just joining in on the topic before a much needed nap.
Cheers y'all!
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:15 PM   #61
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

Thnk you Michael and Matt - I think we are the same page. I jotted this down earlier today so it's a bit redundant. There are two sides that I am addressing. The first is knowing your part in the interaction. If you are acting aggressive and you are presented with a physical correction you have learned a lesson. For someone to act out physically toward you, you have crossed a boundary real or imagined. You can choose to not see staring someone down as aggressive but you are wrong.  

 On the other side if you are being bothered you should explore all non physical options first. 

I don't see the physical as taboo. The goal is connection. You try and connect verbally If that fails the next way is physically.  There are many options on that scale. A  hand on the shoulder may do it or it may take something more drastic. 

There is a personal responsibility in both sides of the equation. I won't advocate abdicating your responsibility for your actions nor for your personal safety.  If you are not willing to make a connection than I don't think you are practicing Aikido. I'm not talking about punching people in the nose that simply piss you off. As a side note I also don't judge my morality simply on the fear of jail.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:04 PM   #62
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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Brian Beach wrote: View Post
Thnk you Michael and Matt - I think we are the same page. I jotted this down earlier today so it's a bit redundant. There are two sides that I am addressing. The first is knowing your part in the interaction. If you are acting aggressive and you are presented with a physical correction you have learned a lesson. For someone to act out physically toward you, you have crossed a boundary real or imagined. You can choose to not see staring someone down as aggressive but you are wrong.  
Emphasis mine. Don't these contradict one another? If the boundary that you've crossed is "imagined", then are you still "wrong" about your actions not being aggressive?
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:25 PM   #63
Michael Hackett
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

Mary, I think you misread Brian's post. You emphasized a couple of words and I think you have misinterpreted what he said. I will paraphrase what he wrote from my understanding. If Bad Person acts out physically towards Victim Person, then Victim Person has crossed a real or imaginary line. Victim Person can choose not see see staring someone down as aggressive, but Victim Person would be incorrect in his assessment. In other words, staring someone down, maddogging them, may not be intended as an aggressive behavior, but may well be viewed as aggressive by the subject of the staring and may trigger a violent reaction. Context is everything of course, but usually staring down a young male in particular is a poor idea.

Brian cited two distinct concepts that aren't mutally exclusive. Nor are they interdependent. One can intentionally cross a social boundary and provoke a violent reaction. One can also cross an imaginary boundary without intent and be on the receiving end of violence. Just wearing the wrong color in some neighborhoods can get you killed. Staring someone down is an example of the former.

I don't think the two of you are that far apart in your expressed thoughts.

Michael
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:42 AM   #64
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

Thank you again Michael. The real or imagined - we mistakingly believe that we live in an homogeneous culture because we live in the same country, it's not. What you may not intend as offensive may be perceived as so. It doesn't make them less offended.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:23 AM   #65
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Mary, I think you misread Brian's post. You emphasized a couple of words and I think you have misinterpreted what he said. I will paraphrase what he wrote from my understanding. If Bad Person acts out physically towards Victim Person, then Victim Person has crossed a real or imaginary line. Victim Person can choose not see see staring someone down as aggressive, but Victim Person would be incorrect in his assessment. In other words, staring someone down, maddogging them, may not be intended as an aggressive behavior, but may well be viewed as aggressive by the subject of the staring and may trigger a violent reaction. Context is everything of course, but usually staring down a young male in particular is a poor idea.
I think you misread my post - not sure why else you insist on seeing the entire problem within the context of an imagined incident that has a very specific meaning and intention for you. Try to step beyond that for a moment and generalize, and look at your statement again:

"If Bad Person acts out physically towards Victim Person, then Victim Person has crossed a real or imaginary line."

Okay. So, what line did Victim Person cross? Let's leave your Young Male "staring down" Other Young Male example, and the question of how "real" that line is, and look at another. Let's say instead that it's Malala Yousufzai who "crossed the line" by going to school, and got shot in the head. Do you say she was "regulated"? Do you?

Please don't treat me like a five-year-old; I understand quite well the distinction between cause/effect and transgression/justified response. My point, made several times already, is that I dislike the use of the word "regulate" to refer to the capricious and sociopathic acts of a powerful person just as much as I dislike the use of the phrase "ethnic cleansing" to refer to genocide. Call a sociopath a sociopath and be done with it.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:38 AM   #66
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

Mary, admittedly I used a specific example even though I was thinking in a more generalized way. Each of us knows what is acceptable conduct in our own society and environment, with the obvious exception of those who have mental disabilities or illness perhaps. Sometimes our conduct is "regulated" in the sense that our society has created specific rules, laws and regulations to prohibit certain conduct. Even if the conduct isn't regulated in a formal sense, it may be met with some form of opprobrium. It may result in a responding scowl, ostracism from a group, a nasty note in the mailbox, a letter to the editor, harsh words, perhaps even a violent response.

In other circumstances, the offending individual may not even realize that he is creating offense as he is in an environment that he isn't familiar with and may meet with the same results.

There are other times when a quietly heroic person such as Ms. Yousufzai crosses a line knowingly for a noble cause and suffers tragically. Do I think her conduct was "regulated"? No, but there were certainly consequences. And before anyone asks, I am aghast as what happened to this young woman in this barbaric act.

I understand that you don't like the use of the word "regulate" to be used in the manner you described. Recognized and noted.

Michael
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:46 AM   #67
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
My point, made several times already, is that I dislike the use of the word "regulate" to refer to the capricious and sociopathic acts of a powerful person just as much as I dislike the use of the phrase "ethnic cleansing" to refer to genocide. Call a sociopath a sociopath and be done with it.
mary, you are just not up to speed with the modern day subtle psychological manipulation of the mass. take "ethnic cleansing" for example, "ethic" is a nice positive word that everyone can relate too. "cleansing" is another nice positive word that triggered happy mood to folks who enjoy good cleaning, long shower, with scented soap, and so on (ya, i like scented soap ok! you got problem with that!). so you put those two words together and you got a nice, warm and fuzzy phrase that folks just enjoyed hearing it, instead of the word "genocide" which brought up image of death camp, concentration camp, and so on; and really make you want to throw-up and outrage feeling swell up. so if you repeat the nice, warm and fuzzy phrase like "ethnic cleansing" long enough, folks actually start to like it, because it gives them the nice, warm and fuzzy feeling.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:07 AM   #68
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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mary, you are just not up to speed with the modern day subtle psychological manipulation of the mass. take "ethnic cleansing" for example, "ethic" is a nice positive word that everyone can relate too. "cleansing" is another nice positive word that triggered happy mood to folks who enjoy good cleaning, long shower, with scented soap, and so on (ya, i like scented soap ok! you got problem with that!). so you put those two words together and you got a nice, warm and fuzzy phrase that folks just enjoyed hearing it, instead of the word "genocide" which brought up image of death camp, concentration camp, and so on; and really make you want to throw-up and outrage feeling swell up. so if you repeat the nice, warm and fuzzy phrase like "ethnic cleansing" long enough, folks actually start to like it, because it gives them the nice, warm and fuzzy feeling.
Positive phrasing, positive spin....I find these to be offensive. Call it what it is. Society has become to sissified.

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Old 12-22-2012, 06:18 AM   #69
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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Thank you again Michael. The real or imagined - we mistakingly believe that we live in an homogeneous culture because we live in the same country, it's not. What you may not intend as offensive may be perceived as so. It doesn't make them less offended.
Ahh, but just becasue someone has offended me doesn't give me the right to "regulate" them.

Regulate, used as a verb: to control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc

I'm not saying a person doesn't have a right to defend him/herself. If I happen to be starring at a young man and he takes offense to it he still has no right to regulate my starring via physical force. Nor should he try to regulate my starring using aggressive language as this would only escalate the situation. Maybe I wan't starring, maybe I was just spaced out in thought. Perhaps I am starring but not at him but at the young lady that is in his general vicinity.

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Old 12-22-2012, 06:50 AM   #70
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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Ahh, but just becasue someone has offended me doesn't give me the right to "regulate" them.

Regulate, used as a verb: to control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc

I'm not saying a person doesn't have a right to defend him/herself. If I happen to be starring at a young man and he takes offense to it he still has no right to regulate my starring via physical force. Nor should he try to regulate my starring using aggressive language as this would only escalate the situation. Maybe I wan't starring, maybe I was just spaced out in thought. Perhaps I am starring but not at him but at the young lady that is in his general vicinity.
I like to be made aware if my mistakes so I have a chance to correct them. Hopefully it doesn't take a punch in the nose to clue me in. A lesson is a lesson though.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:39 PM   #71
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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I like to be made aware if my mistakes so I have a chance to correct them. Hopefully it doesn't take a punch in the nose to clue me in. A lesson is a lesson though.
I too like to know when I have made a mistake. I do not beleive for one moment that someone punching you in the nose because you were starring at him or chatting up his girlfriend would be acceptable to you. Are you saying if the fella comes up to you and punches you in the nose and says don't stare at me or don't talk to my girlfriend you are going to look at him and apologize for your behavior and walk away?

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Old 12-22-2012, 03:48 PM   #72
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I too like to know when I have made a mistake. I do not beleive for one moment that someone punching you in the nose because you were starring at him or chatting up his girlfriend would be acceptable to you. Are you saying if the fella comes up to you and punches you in the nose and says don't stare at me or don't talk to my girlfriend you are going to look at him and apologize for your behavior and walk away?
No, when I needed the lesson I fought him. I learned the lesson though. Getting drunk and chatting up someone's girl friend is a bad idea. Luckily I don't need to learn that lesson anymore
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:03 PM   #73
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

Hi there,

I just wrote about this violence in the "off-the-matt" section, so Iīll spare you the duplicity, but about the reality of violence nowadays and contrary to many opinions here, I would have to say that itīs getting more and more real. Even worse... itīs getting into a whole new level of violence.

I was raised in a culture of respect not only for our parents, but generally to elder people. It was still unthinkable to be disrespectful to a teacher and, as a boy, I was supposed to "look after" the girls. No matter which ones! It it was a girl, it was to be respected by everyone around. This obviously brought some scenes of fist fighting, but that was that. Broken noses, bruised stomachs and so on... but we could call it as fair! Nobody was in a hurry to get into a fight, but if the other guy still insisted, nobody was backing down.
Then I moved from Portugal to Switzerland... nothing happened nowhere!
Then to Boston, where I used to hear about violence, but I never saw much of it and came out "clean" back to Portugal again.
Years later I was getting my first degree in violence in Luanda, Angola, a place where everything happens... and it can happen very fast. A funny thing about it is that they HATE robbers, and if one is caught by civilians...letīs say that itīs unlikely to make it to court. Guns were common, but big knifes were like a "trend" and the "free usage" of them made me re-think the possible solutions for a confrontation. The old-school fist fight was no longer available...

After gettting married I moved to the Czech Republic where apart from quite a few drunks and some really discrete vietnamese cartels, nothing really relevant happens. I could walk home with my wife after the theater without having to look over my shoulder (that is a precious thing to have).

Now weīre in Brasil... and itīs like Texas in the 1800īs! Shoot first, ask later (hell...just shoot, donīt bother asking). There are guns everyhere, carjackings daily, whole buildings robbed in a flash, kidnapps...and shooting. All the time shooting. There is almost absolutely no chances of getting into a clean and fair fight.

Every now and then I have the chance to visit my home country, but I see the headlines getting more and more violent. Kids in the streets are all a "bad boy wanna be" and thereīs clearly a complete disrespect not only for the institutions, but for the family values (any values apart from "whatīs in it for me?" ) And most parents have completely transfered the education role to schools... isnīt it a clear evidence?

Weīre counting the days to return to the Czech Republic... and walk home. Just walk.

Cheers,
Messias.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:30 PM   #74
Messias
Location: Praha
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 17
Portugal
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

My point with all this "bla,bla,bla" is that weīre mainly discussing "violence" as we know it from our civilized, organized, supervized with police and courts... the places where we usually carry on with our lives. We have jobs, food on the table, kids in private schools and itīs even enough to pay for hobbys and vacations, but that is NOT the reality of the vast majority of the rest of the world. New and unknown levels of violence are just arround the corner and one is most likely not to be prepared for it when leaving our comfort zone.

Cheers,
Messias.
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:24 PM   #75
Dan Richards
 
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Dojo: Aiki Research
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 311
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Re: Just how real is violence? And where does Aikido stands in all of this?

Quote:
Filipe Messias wrote: View Post
Just walk.
Messias, I've been reading your posts. (also the other long one, and others.) I see a beautiful theme developing here. Just walk. Just train. Same thing. : )
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