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Old 12-19-2012, 03:56 PM   #26
gregstec
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post

Yes, we can say that his son simplified Aikido in order to popularize the art, he created a curriculum of techniques that made it more comprehensible to teach and to learn, he took out much of the Shinto references and kotodama exercises. But we should credit the nidai doshu for all his work, for it is not likely that any of us would be practicing Aikido, thinking about its philosophy or have talks on the subject like on this forum if it were not for him (and a number of students of O Sensei).

Tom
Actually, I think it was Tohei that created the waza curriculum for modern Aikido (sans Iwama) and the only thing Kisshomaru did was drop the word ki from the explanations after the split.

Greg
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:04 PM   #27
hughrbeyer
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

@Mark, huh. If no one else wants to offer you a game, I will.

O-Sensei talked a lot in his later years about Aikido as a "way of harmony". CF interviews on Stan Pranin's DVD series; cf "Hidden in Plain Sight" where Amdur speculates that O-Sensei saw himself as a divinity driven by his student's practice of Aikido--which implies he wanted to promote the art; cf the story that the only complement Kisshomaru ever got from his father was on opening the Tokyo dojo.

As for Kisshomaru creating modern Aikido, I think you can make a good argument that he changed the engine and imposed a lot of standardization, but not that he changed the external form. The '35 Asahi News video shows something that's clearly recognizable to a modern Aikidoka. Daito-ryu demos, on the other hand, are clearly a different art in emphasis and goals. Already in '35 O-Sensei had clearly taken his art in his own direction.

It's also worth pointing out that none of the first-generation students of O-Sensei went back to being Daito-Ryu teachers. Instead, they all created schools which teach variants of the founder's Aikido. How would that be the case, if the Founder's art was 99% Daito-Ryu?

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:20 PM   #28
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Quote:
Most books came from ... ?
Ueshiba's actual translated words appear ... ?
Research indicates that Ueshiba said ... ?
I am not sure what you are saying here. I only said that the general image of Aikido as published in most books, websites, blogs, magazines is very much in concurrence with Ewen's words.

Quote:
Unfortunately, my research indicates that most people are wrong, which is why I asked for clarification and research to support these notions. Do you have it?
You mean the general image of Aikido is according to you incorrect. You have perhaps a different image of Aikido. That is fine.

Quote:
Cited references?
Well, you did not give me any cited references for your research?
I have been writing a few things about Omoto kyo on my weblog http://aikido-auvergne-kumano.blogsp...filosofie.html
and will be writing some more soon. The influence of Deguchi on O Sensei is quite clear - although not everything in the article relates directly to the discussion at hand.

Nice introduction into the ideas of Omoto kyo; Frederick Franck " an encounter with Oomoto kyo "the great origin" (interestingly Frederick Franck compares the ideas of Nao Deguchi with Teilhard de Chardin - another great christian thinker who also had a vision for mankind)

Quote:
Quote:
So, we agree that Kisshomaru changed a lot and created what most of us consider Modern Aikido. Now, what changes were made? What did Ueshiba actually teach/espouse? Cited references? I think this is an area where everyone should be looking for truth. Just taking the normal, "that's what most people think" approach hasn't gotten us anywhere in 40 + years. Taking the research what Ueshiba actually said/did approach has given us major leaps and advances in IP/aiki.

That's not saying that Modern Aikido is good/bad or right/wrong. Just that there are major differences between Modern Aikido and Ueshiba's IP/aiki.
As far as I am concerned there is only Aikido - just like there is only music. You may prefer a certain kind of music, you may feel that this singer is much better then the other, but in the end it is all music. And that has value in itself. Instead of judging this kind of music or that kind it is often best to just sit back and enjoy.
Tom
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:29 PM   #29
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Actually, I think it was Tohei that created the waza curriculum for modern Aikido (sans Iwama) and the only thing Kisshomaru did was drop the word ki from the explanations after the split.

Greg
If we are talking about Aikido as practiced nowadays I would say it looks more like the way nidai doshu and sandai doshu move. If you go through the books on Aikido published by them over the decades, you can see the changes that they have made. Many of these changes were made long after Tohei had left hombu dojo.

Tom
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:36 PM   #30
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
@Mark, huh. If no one else wants to offer you a game, I will.

O-Sensei talked a lot in his later years about Aikido as a "way of harmony". CF interviews on Stan Pranin's DVD series; cf "Hidden in Plain Sight" where Amdur speculates that O-Sensei saw himself as a divinity driven by his student's practice of Aikido--which implies he wanted to promote the art; cf the story that the only complement Kisshomaru ever got from his father was on opening the Tokyo dojo.

As for Kisshomaru creating modern Aikido, I think you can make a good argument that he changed the engine and imposed a lot of standardization, but not that he changed the external form. The '35 Asahi News video shows something that's clearly recognizable to a modern Aikidoka. Daito-ryu demos, on the other hand, are clearly a different art in emphasis and goals. Already in '35 O-Sensei had clearly taken his art in his own direction.

It's also worth pointing out that none of the first-generation students of O-Sensei went back to being Daito-Ryu teachers. Instead, they all created schools which teach variants of the founder's Aikido. How would that be the case, if the Founder's art was 99% Daito-Ryu?
I agree - just to add to this; Aikido is not a mish-mash of random techniques from other schools and neither is it 99% Daito ryu. The influence of Takeda is there, just like the influence of Deguchi is there. But Aikido is of itself a completely authentique art.

Tom
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:38 PM   #31
gregstec
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
If we are talking about Aikido as practiced nowadays I would say it looks more like the way nidai doshu and sandai doshu move. If you go through the books on Aikido published by them over the decades, you can see the changes that they have made. Many of these changes were made long after Tohei had left hombu dojo.

Tom
Disagree to a degree - if you go back to before the split, you will see Tohei and NiDai Doshu doing the same thing - as things progressed, each Doshu may have added their own flair to their Aikido - but my point was that Tohei was the first one to develop a waza curriculum back in the 50s and not Kisshomaru.

Greg
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:48 PM   #32
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I agree - just to add to this; Aikido is not a mish-mash of random techniques from other schools and neither is it 99% Daito ryu. The influence of Takeda is there, just like the influence of Deguchi is there. But Aikido is of itself a completely authentique art.

Tom
Interesting discussion of that here...

I suppose that it depends upon what you mean by "authentique", and where you think that things diverge.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-19-2012, 05:20 PM   #33
Cliff Judge
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

Some of the waza in Aikido are really ur-techniques that can be seen in various koryu jujutsu schools. Kotegaeshi and shihonage are two examples of this.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:30 PM   #34
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Some of the waza in Aikido are really ur-techniques that can be seen in various koryu jujutsu schools. Kotegaeshi and shihonage are two examples of this.
Both of which are found in Daito-ryu, executed in essentially the same manner that they are in Aikido - no real reason to go further for a source.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-19-2012, 08:29 PM   #35
Cliff Judge
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Both of which are found in Daito-ryu, executed in essentially the same manner that they are in Aikido - no real reason to go further for a source.

Best,

Chris
You seem to be implying that Ueshiba must have or could only have learned those techniques from Daito ryu? That would be "going further" than me, I think.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:58 PM   #36
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Aikido Isn't Bullshit

If you debate the differneces in techniques in your search to find out what Aikido is then you are barking up the wrong tree; Aikido is not in the techniques. Aikido is the Way of Aiki, and if you grasp that, it doesn't really matter what the technique is or how it is done in a particular school or who modified it to be this or that. And to latch onto another thread, nor is aiki to be found in ukemi practice for ukemi's sake. Uke does ukemi because tori 'causes' him do it. Notice I didn't say - 'make'.
Just my 2c

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