Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-19-2012, 11:49 AM   #1
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 387
United_States
Offline
Knocking off the rust

After a decade long break, I've had about 2 years back on the mat. My ukemi isn't coming back. Rolls still hurt, I cant seem to install better ukemi, and adjusting technique is difficult. Am I too well programmed? I wont roll unless I am actually thrown, I am stepping out and tapping out of techniques, and generally being a lame-assed wuss training partner.

Any words of wisdom, kicks in the pants, commiseration, training tips, etc.?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 02:53 PM   #2
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,778
United_States
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
After a decade long break, I've had about 2 years back on the mat. My ukemi isn't coming back. Rolls still hurt, I cant seem to install better ukemi, and adjusting technique is difficult. Am I too well programmed? I wont roll unless I am actually thrown, I am stepping out and tapping out of techniques, and generally being a lame-assed wuss training partner.

Any words of wisdom, kicks in the pants, commiseration, training tips, etc.?
i am willing to offer out my "kicks in the pants" service.

whether i roll or not, it depends on the situation. i don't normally roll unless i was thrown.

Don't know what your aikido practice is like so can't really comment. however (sort of a but, large one ) most aikido folks that i have seen tend to roll like a wheel. years ago, i attent an aikiweb friendship seminar taught by Dennis Hooker, Chuck Clark and Ellis Amdur (really really great seminar). Ellis taught a ukemi class and his talk of ukemi changed the way i do roll (except for egg rolls, spring rolls and so on). Ellis way of rolling is like a ball instead of a wheel, based on his observation of the monkey at the zoo. my mates and i, we called it monkemi (monkey ukemi). Ellis has a DVD. i would recommend it. i also worked with some systema folks for a period of time and their approach to ukemi is very similar to Ellis but with some differences (those systema buggers are crazy). things to consider. don't attack the mats like your enermy. make it your best friend and lover. caress it, feel it, flow with it, be gentle with it, play with it. watch this guy move http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duMScxR7LJ8 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXPkmwhp5SA i wouldn't try the park bench unless you are pretty relax and flow with it.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 05:22 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,933
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

I also recommend both the Ellis Amdur dvd and any Systema person you can work with.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2012, 06:20 AM   #4
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 560
United_States
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

I enjoy taking falls when the person I am working with is actually throwing me. That being said it depends on the level of partner I am working with as to whether or not I will fall. If I am working with a less experienced partner I am more likely to fall so that my partner is able to learn the movement. If it is a more advanced partner they better be taking my balance etc because they should know better. I think of it as a responsibility to make sure that the technique is "real," for the person executing it at the time, before I take the fall.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2012, 04:02 PM   #5
James Sawers
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
James Sawers's Avatar
Dojo: Oak Park Aikikai, IL
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
United_States
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
After a decade long break, I've had about 2 years back on the mat. My ukemi isn't coming back. Rolls still hurt, I cant seem to install better ukemi, and adjusting technique is difficult. Am I too well programmed? I wont roll unless I am actually thrown, I am stepping out and tapping out of techniques, and generally being a lame-assed wuss training partner.

Any words of wisdom, kicks in the pants, commiseration, training tips, etc.?
I try to look at ukemi as the final part of the technique that nage is executing. In other words, the ukemi is not someting that uke is doing in response to nage, but that the ukemi is the completion of nage's technique. The end result is less of a "clash" of two opposing bodies/forces. This also results in less of a clash with the mat. I like Phi's description of his love affair with the mat. Of course, this is all so much easier to describe than to actualize. Perhaps the approach to take is to consider taking ukemi like landing a airplane. As long as you can walk away from it, it is a good landing, so less of a focus on correct form and more what your body wants/needs to do to survive the ukemi. I have seen high-level shihan with this approach. Their ukemi is not very elegant, but it gets the job done, it works for their body, and they get back up.

Zazen emptiness
Sitting under the moon
Mosquitoes whine in glee
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2012, 05:48 PM   #6
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 528
Australia
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

I wish I could work with you on this because it is a bit of a pet topic of mine.

Firstly, not falling unless you are thrown is generally a good way to train because it makes your partner work to get the technique right, and it also allows you to feel a technique as it is done to you from start to finish. Unfortunately, it doesn't always give you the best opportunity to practice your ukemi, and if the technique is done well, you want to make sure your ukemi is good or you might get hurt.

One way that people with poor ukemi use to compensate for this is they disengage in order to protect themselves, which causes them not to give a proper attack. For example, I've had people attack me with grabs, and all I do is twitch a muscle or two and they let go. That doesn't let me practice my technique and it doesn't let them practice their ukemi either. I'm sure this isn't what you do, but it can happen. I'm going to guess that you are the sort that holds on without falling and potentially damages themselves. Am I right? If that is the case, it can make it difficult for tori because they don't want to hurt you and they know that you aren't comfortable receiving.

Anyway, my advice when training is to look after yourself first. Use all your training as a chance to practice your ukemi so that you are comfortable with it. Once you get comfortable, you can decide not to fall if you are not thrown.

Ukemi is also more than just the fall. For example, the ukemi for shihonage is particularly tricky because there is a whole lot of positioning that goes on before the fall to make sure that you release tension on your elbow and shoulder. I'm afraid I don't have a vid of this. It is something that my old teacher taught me, and it has proved extremely valuable.

When it comes to rolls and break falls, I find the methods in the following videos to be helpful. Firstly, try the rolling method in this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Tnv4-83HmgI

This is how I teach rolling these days, and I like to do it as slowly as possible, without kicking off. Just allow your weight to come forward until you go over naturally. Daniel demonstrates this well in the video. When you move on to standing, try to get the same feeling, so that you bend your legs to get close to the mat and don't kick off. Notice that you will roll at an angle, not straight ahead. Let this happen. It is more natural.

The next video is more to do with break falls than rolls, but I really like the approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMpBpM38TMg

Just make sure you don't try to do it all at once, and get comfortable with the early exercises before you move on. The first exercise where he rolls in a circle is very good for getting comfortable with touching the mat. Also, the exercise where he flips off someone's back is easier when you use a soft(ish) object like a big punching bag. My wife still doesn't have the courage to do a standing forward roll, but she is happy to do a flip off a punching bag. It is surprisingly easy.

Anyway, don't try to jump into it. Try to relax and get comfortable with touching the mat. Start low and slow and build up from there.

I hope this helps, and I really wish I could see you on the mat.

Robin
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2013, 06:08 AM   #7
amoeba
Dojo: Aikido Netzwerk
Location: Düsseldorf, NRW
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 80
Germany
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

Robin, we use to do the second one (or at least a very similar approach), especially in kids' class. Nice way to prepare for doing breakfalls!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2013, 10:40 AM   #8
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
Location: London, UK
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 232
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

A good method in my experience is to get people to do a backwards roll from sitting on the mat, and then to play with reversing the backwards roll at various points during it so that you ultimately becomes a forwards roll.

E.g. roll backwards half way and then forwards, repeat a few times. Roll backwards until your feet start to touch the mat, then forwards, repeat a few times. Finally roll backwards fully so that you are upright again (on your knees), and now reverse it into a forwards roll. This shows them how to get the shoulder down on to the mat.

Backwards rolls are very unthreatening!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2013, 02:34 PM   #9
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,933
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
Backwards rolls are very unthreatening!
Only to some. Definitely a YMMV issue...

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2013, 03:23 AM   #10
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
Location: London, UK
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 232
Offline
Re: Knocking off the rust

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Only to some. Definitely a YMMV issue...
OK, perhaps better stated as "backward rolls are typically much less threatening to people than forward rolls when they start"...
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:12 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate