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Old 12-08-2012, 09:22 AM   #26
chillzATL
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

When I read the OP and some of the follow-ups, the impression I got was that there was frustration with almost cult-like enthusiasm the people who are doing the IP training have for it and their willingness to beat you over the head with their opinions until you almost want to puke, without ever offering anything more than IHTBF. I get it, I really do. It's tiring to be told you're wrong and sometimes not just be told it, but to be beaten about the head and shoulders by it and not really be given anything in return other than "IHTBF" or "go see people". Especially when that sort of conversation is what dominates around here these days. All I can say is that it's probably just as frustrating to some of us who are doing the IP training to read those posts and never see anyone really attempt elucidate what they themselves are doing. Training is always going to be more important than talking, always, but talking and finding ways to verbalize what you're doing and how you're doing it is a pretty important part to actually understanding what you're doing..IMO.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:59 AM   #27
Howard Popkin
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

working it out, expecting august
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:38 PM   #28
Gary David
 
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

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Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
working it out, expecting august
Howard
Contact me and we can see what can be worked out for here around me......Orange County and other parts of So Cal......maybe combining or follow on.

Gary
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:17 PM   #29
Cady Goldfield
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
When I read the OP and some of the follow-ups, the impression I got was that there was frustration with almost cult-like enthusiasm the people who are doing the IP training have for it and their willingness to beat you over the head with their opinions until you almost want to puke, without ever offering anything more than IHTBF. I get it, I really do. It's tiring to be told you're wrong and sometimes not just be told it, but to be beaten about the head and shoulders by it and not really be given anything in return other than "IHTBF" or "go see people". Especially when that sort of conversation is what dominates around here these days. All I can say is that it's probably just as frustrating to some of us who are doing the IP training to read those posts and never see anyone really attempt elucidate what they themselves are doing. Training is always going to be more important than talking, always, but talking and finding ways to verbalize what you're doing and how you're doing it is a pretty important part to actually understanding what you're doing..IMO.
Considering the wealth of scholarship dwelling on AikiWeb alone -- Ellis Amdur, Dan Harden, Chris Li, Peter Goldsbury, just to name a tiny fraction --there is enough historical and tangible, physical evidence in place to be very certain that the methods for the unusual power that drove the skills demonstrated by S. Takeda, Y. Sagawa, K. Horikawa and M. Ueshiba are still very much alive and being practiced by contemporary martial artists, including some who post on and read AikiWeb. Again and again, the evidence, including invidivuals actually duplicating Ueshiba's internal skills and having them confirmed by PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY TRAINED WITH AND FELT UESHIBA, have been reported here, but summarily dismissed by some who seem to prefer that a mystery remain a mystery (even when the mystery has long since been solved)... to keep the mystique in their practice.

Be that as it may...

There are some good reasons why no one is trying to elucidate what they are doing, a key one being that when it was done in the past (and there has been some very detailed information provided, at length, on various forums over the years), the generosity was abused in very brazen ways. Once burned, twice shy. Or make that "many times burned, finally shy." Additionally, those who are training it regularly and deeply under others' tutelage, are not in a position, ethically, to give out what in some cases is proprietary information -- particularly involving personalized training methods; it's up to those from whom they are learning to initiate such discussions.

It's not that folks are all secret-y to be coy; there just isn't anything positive to be gained from openly handing out details that can be misunderstood, misused, abused, exploited or falsely claimed by others. Who knows who-all is reading these forums? The 'net is the best way to "share" information with a billion of your closest strangers...

So, I suspect that there will continue to be posts exhorting others to just go and feel it, meet the people. There are many private conversations, on private discussion boards, going on as a result, and you will not find very much offered in public Internet venues. I doubt much will change unless and until IP and aiki become more mainstream and thus more in the public domain and less proprietary so that it is discussed as openly and freely as conventional athletics. That could be a while, but it could happen.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-08-2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:50 PM   #30
gregstec
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Considering the wealth of scholarship dwelling on AikiWeb alone -- Ellis Amdur, Dan Harden, Chris Li, Peter Goldsbury, just to name a tiny fraction --there is enough historical and tangible, physical evidence in place to be very certain that the methods for the unusual power that drove the skills demonstrated by S. Takeda, Y. Sagawa, K. Horikawa and M. Ueshiba are still very much alive and being practiced by contemporary martial artists, including some who post on and read AikiWeb. Again and again, the evidence, including invidivuals actually duplicating Ueshiba's internal skills and having them confirmed by PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY TRAINED WITH AND FELT UESHIBA, have been reported here, but summarily dismissed by some who seem to prefer that a mystery remain a mystery (even when the mystery has long since been solved)... to keep the mystique in their practice.

Be that as it may...

There are some good reasons why no one is trying to elucidate what they are doing, a key one being that when it was done in the past (and there has been some very detailed information provided, at length, on various forums over the years), the generosity was abused in very brazen ways. Once burned, twice shy. Or make that "many times burned, finally shy." Additionally, those who are training it regularly and deeply under others' tutelage, are not in a position, ethically, to give out what in some cases is proprietary information -- particularly involving personalized training methods; it's up to those from whom they are learning to initiate such discussions.

It's not that folks are all secret-y to be coy; there just isn't anything positive to be gained from openly handing out details that can be misunderstood, misused, abused, exploited or falsely claimed by others. Who knows who-all is reading these forums? The 'net is the best way to "share" information with a billion of your closest strangers...

So, I suspect that there will continue to be posts exhorting others to just go and feel it, meet the people. There are many private conversations, on private discussion boards, going on as a result, and you will not find very much offered in public Internet venues. I doubt much will change unless and until IP and aiki become more mainstream and thus more in the public domain and less proprietary so that it is discussed as openly and freely as conventional athletics. That could be a while, but it could happen.
well said...
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:48 AM   #31
aristofanis
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Is there any IP in kendo?
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:11 AM   #32
MM
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Aristo Fanis wrote: View Post
Is there any IP in kendo?
So many answers. If you read all the posts about IP/aiki, you find that it isn't a simple matter of "Is there any IP in ...".

Liu Chengde, Chin, Akazawa, Okamoto, Shirata, etc, all had to learn it from somewhere. More important questions should be:

1. Who has IP/aiki?
1a. To what degree?

2. Can they teach it?
2a. Do their students have it in progressive levels?

How to judge answers?

1. He/She must absolutely, without question, stand out from all other martial artists. And also do so outside of any technique or waza. High ranking kendo people could not understand how Ueshiba was doing things.
1a. Train with a wide variety of people. Research for known, vetted people. Martial artists went to Ueshiba because he was well known and vetted as having extraordinary skills.

2. Train with them. If you haven't started standing out in 3-5 years, the answer is no.
2a. This also will give you the answer to 2. Not amount of knowledge of techniques or kata, but unusual abilities/power/strength within waza and more importantly outside of it.

Finally when looking, IP/aiki should be able to be used in any martial art because it changes the body, not amasses techniques. As Ueshiba said, paraphrasing, Aiki makes everything better.

Mark
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:30 AM   #33
lbb
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That was a great post Mary but I see things a little simpler than that.
IP people generally raise hackles because once they feel this they say this is Aikido.
it's my opinion that it has been a series of those in Aikido who choose to attack the IP people personally, describing them in every manner of derogatory commentary imaginable. I've seen it over and over, were I home at my computer I could prove it in about a half an hour: with articles from shihans and all manner of posts doing exactly as you described questioning motivations, practices, insinuating people are brainwashed, herd mentalities, con man, snake oil salesman.... the list goes on and on.
Opinion is not required.... I've saved many of the posts.
I'm sure you have saved many of the posts, and maybe you could prove it (although as yet you haven't, so although you say "opinion is not required", ironically that's exactly what you're offering at this point). I just don't think proving it is important. I think it's a waste of time and energy. Squabbling children concern themselves with who started it and who said the worst thing. Adults need to concern themselves with solutions rather than with blame.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The real dispute should be over whether this work is in fact the original work Ueshiba was doing and that it is in fact the very heart of Aikido. It is that one...singular....point, that has caused people in the community to react and respond defensively. Being told you're not doing something correct or that you haven't understood something you been doing for years, is challenging enough for anyone. now hearing it is being played out and proved to be true on a worldwide stage, is not welcomed news for all parties involved. All too often this has evoked an emotional response from those in the community
I have to tell you, Dan, that MY hackles ALWAYS raise when I'm told what the "real dispute should be". It sounds like you're telling me what I should be concerned with, what I should be thinking about and spending my time on. I have a way of resisting people who tell me what my priorities should be. Maybe I don't see any need for any dispute at all. Maybe I just don't think that anyone, in this day and age (and with the possible exception of the few still living who trained with him) is able to authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing. I say this simply as a matter of logic, because something is always lost in translation. Get six people together and play a game of telephone, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm just one of those who views WWUD as a vain exercise in trying to prove the unprovable. Whatever anyone is doing today should stand on its own merits, without this pseudo-religious appeal to a long-dead authority. In my opinion, such appeals to authority detract from one's position rather than lend it merit.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think we can all do better.
Dan
No doubt about that.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:32 AM   #34
lbb
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Sticks and stones.....just because someone does or says something that one does not like does that mean one has to retaliate in like kind? Big deal if someone has that opinion. Does that change who you are? Does that make you less? If you know who you are and what you are capable of why does it matter if someone else, a stranger on the internet no less, has some other opinion right or wrong? if a person listens great, and if they choose not to hear you... well that's their loss not yours. What does it really take away from you?
Who are you talking to, Cherie?

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
You have no idea of just what I can or cannot do. I did not speak about your motivation, mindset commitment other than to follow the thought you yourself posted about not being willing to step outside of your comfort zone and to be grateful that I have teachers who are not afraid to do so since it has benefited me. I am sorry that you are unable to do the same.
Who on EARTH are you talking to, Cherie?
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:43 AM   #35
Howard Prior
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
...Liu Chengde, Chin, Akazawa, Okamoto, Shirata, etc...
Chin?
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:49 AM   #36
Gary David
 
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Howard Prior wrote: View Post
Chin?
Howard
A line from an old old song....."When they were giving out chins, I thought they said 'gin' and I ordered a double"

Seeing you like the ocean......

"If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck
I'd dive to the bottom to get one sweet suck
But the ocean ain't whiskey and I ain't a duck
So we'll round up the cattle and then we'll get drunk"
Tex Ritter



Gary

Last edited by Gary David : 12-09-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:55 AM   #37
MM
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

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Howard Prior wrote: View Post
Chin?
Sam Chin of I Liq Chuan.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:10 AM   #38
MM
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Maybe I just don't think that anyone, in this day and age (and with the possible exception of the few still living who trained with him) is able to authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing. I say this simply as a matter of logic, because something is always lost in translation. Get six people together and play a game of telephone, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I would be hesitant to rely upon those theories. Since most of us haven't trained directly with Ueshiba, lets instead look at how many of us have trained with students who were there when Ueshiba taught.

How many would have you trained with?

On our end, that would be quite a lot. No, probably more than a lot.

As for something lost in translation? It's funny in a not so funny manner that I trained with some one who was there when Ueshiba was teaching and quite a few of the exercises that Dan learned down through a Daito Ryu heritage were nearly exact to what Ueshiba taught. IP/aiki has specific training. It was passed along, it didn't get mistranslated, but all of it wasn't taught to everyone.

If you're keen on putting us in a "herd", then by the very nature of our training, we are the "herd" closest to how Ueshiba trained. No, I wouldn't really use those theories at all.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:49 PM   #39
Howard Prior
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Gentlemen, thanks.

Mark - as I was turning to aikiweb a few minutes ago it suddenly hit me who you were talking about. Had I been thinking clearer earlier I might have gotten it then.

Gary - a double entendre? I do like the ocean...

Howard
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:02 PM   #40
Basia Halliop
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

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Whatever anyone is doing today should stand on its own merits, without this pseudo-religious appeal to a long-dead authority. In my opinion, such appeals to authority detract from one's position rather than lend it merit.
Nicely put!
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:37 PM   #41
lbb
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I would be hesitant to rely upon those theories.
I haven't stated any theories.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Since most of us haven't trained directly with Ueshiba, lets instead look at how many of us have trained with students who were there when Ueshiba taught.

How many would have you trained with?
I'm not sure how to parse that sentence.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If you're keen on putting us in a "herd", then by the very nature of our training, we are the "herd" closest to how Ueshiba trained. No, I wouldn't really use those theories at all.
"Herd"? Who used that word?

Do not put words into my mouth.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:34 PM   #42
Cady Goldfield
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
As for something lost in translation? It's funny in a not so funny manner that I trained with some one who was there when Ueshiba was teaching and quite a few of the exercises that Dan learned down through a Daito Ryu heritage were nearly exact to what Ueshiba taught. IP/aiki has specific training. It was passed along, it didn't get mistranslated, but all of it wasn't taught to everyone.
Funny how ages-old disciplines and skills, such as musical-instrument playing, blacksmithing and swordsmithing, etc. can be handed down generation after generation with their integrity and specific "recipes" intact, yet when it comes to IP/Aiki people are willing to put blinders on their common sense and deny that these skills, too, have been handed down intact along the generations. In any discipline there may be creative tweaks to individual artistic expression, but the essential integrity remains because the basic methods and principles have not been messed with.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:44 PM   #43
MM
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I haven't stated any theories.

I'm not sure how to parse that sentence.

"Herd"? Who used that word?

Do not put words into my mouth.
Sorry, Mary, should have made it clearer that I was using your post as a springboard and "you" was plural.

So, the theory is that no one can "authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing". I think that's fairly easy to disprove once the research is done.

The parsing was supposed to be, "How many have you trained with?". Again, "you" being plural and addressing the readers.

The "herd" was from Mary Eastland, but she merely voiced the term. Others thought it, perhaps not in that exact word, but the notion was the same. How many times have people been exasperated because "we" "hijacked" a thread? The funny thing is that I did an analysis (several times) of the total threads within a certain period of time and how many of those threads had IP/aiki interjected. The percentage was small. Still, it's the perception that counts when the truth is hard to accept.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:22 PM   #44
Tengu859
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

To The IP/AIKI Gang,

Just one question...why are "ewe" guys and gals always hijacking, train wrecking, and otherwise causing trouble...here on Aikiweb?!?!?!? :0)

ChrisW

Last edited by Tengu859 : 12-09-2012 at 08:25 PM. Reason: Forgot to add my smiley face ;0)
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:11 PM   #45
stan baker
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Hi Chris
Trying to bring out what has been hidden
Stan
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:03 AM   #46
Tengu859
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Stan,

Cool. I've got "HIP" issues as well. That's why I'm goingback to basics...being in "harmony" with the universe!!! I gotta get of my high horse and get on that floating bridge!!! :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:44 AM   #47
phitruong
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Chris Western wrote: View Post
To The IP/AIKI Gang,

Just one question...why are "ewe" guys and gals always hijacking, train wrecking, and otherwise causing trouble...here on Aikiweb?!?!?!? :0)

ChrisW
because we have imagination? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VONqUbx3r8

* yes, i got kids and they have such wonderful imagination. *

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:16 AM   #48
HL1978
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Aristo Fanis wrote: View Post
Is there any IP in kendo?
It is by and large completely gone, the same is true in ZNKR iaido, though perhaps the previous generation had it, such as Iwata sensei, or Mori Mochida (you can find videos of both on youtube). Artifacts are still there (like in judo), but the knowledge of what it is and how to develop it is mostly gone, or if present, kept only to a few people.

That doesn't mean individual people aren't working on it (like me), but I have been to seminars with kendo hachidan, and iaido hachidan, including members of the ZNKR iaido committee. They know how to use their hips, and will give exercises for how to do that, but they don't move like someone with IP knowledge.

I've had various kodansha level people tell me that I move incorrectly, and that we don't need that kind of power anymore in kendo and iaido.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:26 AM   #49
lbb
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Sorry, Mary, should have made it clearer that I was using your post as a springboard and "you" was plural.
Fair enough, thanks for the explanation. For what it's worth, I think the dialogue is slowly improving. We'll get there eventually.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:59 AM   #50
Basia Halliop
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Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
So, the theory is that no one can "authoritatively state what Ueshiba was doing". I think that's fairly easy to disprove once the research is done
For me, this isn't really the important question. As someone pointed out, it's still just an appeal to authority, which to me isn't really much of an argument for something - it kind of feels like changing the subject (I know it isn't intended that way). It simply doesn't really do much to help me figure out if something is going to be important or useful to me in my own life. It's like trying to sell a product by telling me that a lot of really cool people use it -- I've never found those kinds of ads to be particularly relevant to me, or even to particularly pique my interest. Fundamentally if something's interesting it's because it's interesting itself.

In the end, for me whether something interests me enough to make an effort to learn more about it or not is going to come down to the actual content. Unfortunately this can be a barrier in this particular case since the things being spoken of are kinesthetic and it seems to be pretty difficult to have a verbal discussion about them, particularly without prior knowledge. So I guess I do see why discussions often just devolve into appeals to authority... But sadly the result is that the discussions can be kind of boring and off-putting to someone who isn't already fascinated by the subject.
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