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Old 11-29-2012, 03:46 PM   #51
tanthalas
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

Quote:
Richard Stevens wrote: View Post
The Last Samurai was well done (disregarding the plethora of historical/technical inaccuracies) and I'm guessing Iaido/Kenjutsu schools didn't see a big influx of new interest. Honesty, I highly doubt that any well done film that features Aikido or any other traditional Japanese art in a significant way is going to spur an influx of new interest.

All you are going to see in big budget Hollywood movies that aren't period pieces are fight scenes that use the ever so popular Krav Maga/Silat/Kali/MMA fusion. The Chinese film industry can put out some great movies (Ip Man, Shaolin) and Indonesia recently had the Raid Redemption, but I'm doubting Japan is going to put out anything at that sort of level that is heavily features Aikido or Jujutsu.

In terms of big budget Hollywood films that feature traditional Japanese arts I'm guessing 47 Ronin is going to be the closest you are going to get for a long time. Who knows how those fight scenes are going to turn out? If Sanada wasn't one of the leads I'd be very worried.
I know a handful of folks who started doing Wing Chun because of Ip Man. (or as a friend of mine calls it, IP Man)

There was a fairly recent Chinese TV serial from Hong Kong called The Master of Tai Chi which undoubtedly drew a bunch of prospective students to the art as well (hell, half of the show's website was a marketing campaign for Tai Chi).

So maybe the American market doesn't have the attention span or interest for a good "realistic" Aikido film, but there are probably lots of opportunities elsewhere.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:02 PM   #52
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

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Calvin On wrote: View Post
I know a handful of folks who started doing Wing Chun because of Ip Man. (or as a friend of mine calls it, IP Man)...
That's probably because it's a very cool movie.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:16 PM   #53
tanthalas
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

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That's probably because it's a very cool movie.
FWIW I found the Chinese propaganda to be way overboard and dramatized for my taste, but yeah, the fight sequences were cool. Much closer to the stuff I grew up watching and not the slow-motion, artsy crouching tiger snoozing dragon bullcrap these days. (apologies to fans of said movie; it's just my opinion after all!)

Last edited by tanthalas : 11-30-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:30 PM   #54
camt
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

I think Aikido definitely loses prospective students to the martial arts that are deemed successful because of the UFC. Aikido hasn't been proven effective in the eyes of the public. However, its interesting to notice that Steven Seagal has made a pretty big presence working with some of UFCs top fighters (Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida). Unfortunately, he has that self-aggrandizing attitude that make him seem a joke to many in the sport.

I personally find him entertaining and obviously respect his aikido ability. Despite everything, I'm glad he's made a friend of Silva and train together. Whatever some may say in the UFC, Anderson obviously finds some value in having Seagal around.

For those who haven't seen this training clip with Seagal/Silva, have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jIlljXq2Y
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:49 PM   #55
Krystal Locke
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

What do you think would happen if Seagal returns to his roots, drops some of the odd stuff, and starts training in and teaching aikido again? I'd kinda like to see that, but I think he'd struggle to regain legitimacy as an aikido teacher.
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:52 PM   #56
Chris Li
 
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
What do you think would happen if Seagal returns to his roots, drops some of the odd stuff, and starts training in and teaching aikido again? I'd kinda like to see that, but I think he'd struggle to regain legitimacy as an aikido teacher.
Well, he doesn't train any less than a lot of 7th dans I see wandering around, and they don't seem to have legitimacy problems - he'd probably be fine.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-08-2012, 07:23 PM   #57
Krystal Locke
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

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Well, he doesn't train any less than a lot of 7th dans I see wandering around, and they don't seem to have legitimacy problems - he'd probably be fine.

Best,

Chris
Fair enough. From what I've seen of the films on youtube, he did have some pretty fine skills in the day. Very direct and strong, probably wouldn't be too popular with some of the folk. The little bit of stuff I've seen of him with Anderson Silva looks like he's not lost too much in the way of timing and technique, although he has concealed it under a few layers of cheeseburger, not to mention the odd stuff. I can't complain there either, I am trying to work off a decade of not being on the mat myself, and the ukemi is slow coming back.

Lots of folk rest on their laurels. I dont blame them, 7th dan is no small acheivement. Doesn't seem to be the case in my dojo in general, but there are a few folk who have reached middling dan ranks who have just kinda shuffled themselves off into stagnancy and irrelevancy. Hope I dont do that. Who am I kidding, me getting to a middling dan rank, right.........
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:34 PM   #58
Chris Li
 
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Fair enough. From what I've seen of the films on youtube, he did have some pretty fine skills in the day. Very direct and strong, probably wouldn't be too popular with some of the folk. The little bit of stuff I've seen of him with Anderson Silva looks like he's not lost too much in the way of timing and technique, although he has concealed it under a few layers of cheeseburger, not to mention the odd stuff. I can't complain there either, I am trying to work off a decade of not being on the mat myself, and the ukemi is slow coming back.

Lots of folk rest on their laurels. I dont blame them, 7th dan is no small acheivement. Doesn't seem to be the case in my dojo in general, but there are a few folk who have reached middling dan ranks who have just kinda shuffled themselves off into stagnancy and irrelevancy. Hope I dont do that. Who am I kidding, me getting to a middling dan rank, right.........
Mmmm....cheeseburgers....

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-08-2012, 08:34 PM   #59
camt
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

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I'd dearly love to get away from some of the recent fruitless meanderings about definitions and power and who has what and ask a question that has been in my mind a while.

Lots of our dojos are finding themselves struggling or topheavy or both. Sure, there is a poor economy, sure, our sensei are aging, as are we. You can hear crickets at the beginners class, not so many young bucks frustrating the crap out of everyone at the seminars, the dojocho is calling for dues a few days after the first of the month instead of a couple months down the line.

Do we need another Steven Seagal?

Movies are huge in poor economies. Despite all the rest of the oddness, Seagal brought a LOT of people in the door and some of them actually stuck.

Anyone want to take on that onus? Or should I call it giri?
To get a LOT of people interested in aikido, all you need is someone who can pull off a distinct aikido technique in the UFC. One kotegaeshi, nikyo, sankyo or whatever and you would hear Joe Rogan screaming AIKIDO!

Judo is still relatively rare in the UFC but guys/gals like Karo Parisyan and Ronda Rousey have made it work . I predict aikido will make an appearance one of these days. Just waiting for the "chosen" one...
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:30 PM   #60
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

I came to Aikido, directly because of Steven Seagal, I did a little research, then went and found a dojo, stayed ten years under the same teacher.
I had never heard of Aikido until I first watched Nico (in the US - Above The Law). So yeah maybe we do need another big star to give Aikido another boost.

Or maybe we just need better teachers from Japan, that have the same qualities in a technical sense and the big personality types that were around before I was born like Saito Sensei, Tohei Sensei, Kisshomaru Ueshiba Doshu, Tamura Sensei e.t.c

It would be nice to see some direct influence on the popularisation of Aikido from the top and not just individual organisations, dojo`s and sensei`s putting on a show. It needs a deliberate show of strength, enthusiasm and dare I say ambition to bring Aikido to the fore, as the number one non-competitive, self defensive martial art of Japan.

In Budo

Andy B
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:53 PM   #61
Walter Martindale
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

As well the shihan need to be able to communicate to the culture to which they're teaching. That means learning the language well enough to express all those arcane movement/IP or whatever concepts in the local language.
Something is ALWAYS lost in translation. That may be why Seagal could teach in the USA - he spoke both languages.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:42 PM   #62
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

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Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
To get a LOT of people interested in aikido, all you need is someone who can pull off a distinct aikido technique in the UFC. One kotegaeshi, nikyo, sankyo or whatever and you would hear Joe Rogan screaming AIKIDO!

Judo is still relatively rare in the UFC but guys/gals like Karo Parisyan and Ronda Rousey have made it work . I predict aikido will make an appearance one of these days. Just waiting for the "chosen" one...
The problem though is that small joint locks are illegal in MMA rules - so no wrist locks or finger locks. The taping of the wrist/hand inside the gloves also makes it extremely difficult to apply. I can see something like a variation of iriminage being used but it might be mistaken for Judo.

Even if Aikido were used in the UFC, it won't create a renaissance in Aikido because of Aikido's philosophy. MMA fans just wouldn't have the patience to practice it without hard sparring. Similarly there is very little obvious Aikido techniques that can be amalgamated into an MMA gym. Alot of people go straight into MMA without coming from a traditional martial art or single discipline background.

Judo is far easier to amalgamate into MMA because MMA has a strong grappling base in collegiate wrestling. Judo is effectively an alternative to wrestling.

I would love to see Seagal go back to his roots; out of interest which Seagal film do people think is best for Aikido?

Last edited by aiki-jujutsuka : 12-17-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:06 AM   #63
Richard Stevens
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
The problem though is that small joint locks are illegal in MMA rules - so no wrist locks or finger locks. The taping of the wrist/hand inside the gloves also makes it extremely difficult to apply. I can see something like a variation of iriminage being used but it might be mistaken for Judo.

Even if Aikido were used in the UFC, it won't create a renaissance in Aikido because of Aikido's philosophy. MMA fans just wouldn't have the patience to practice it without hard sparring. Similarly there is very little obvious Aikido techniques that can be amalgamated into an MMA gym. Alot of people go straight into MMA without coming from a traditional martial art or single discipline background.

Judo is far easier to amalgamate into MMA because MMA has a strong grappling base in collegiate wrestling. Judo is effectively an alternative to wrestling.

I would love to see Seagal go back to his roots; out of interest which Seagal film do people think is best for Aikido?
Actually wrist locks are legal, but few fighters have developed the ability to actually use them in competition while wearing those gloves and covered in sweat. If I recall correctly the closest I've seen to an Aikido "locking" technique in an MMA fight was via Shinya Aoki around the 2 minute mark in the following clip:

http://youtu.be/Q_718dOW09k

I know Henry Ellis's son is a very good Aikidoka and competes in MMA in the UK and has incorporated things so that may be the best source for opinions on the subject.

Finger locks may be legal as well. I know that you have to grab a minimum of three finger to peel a grab off, so maybe it's permitted to apply a lock to those fingers as well.

I seriously doubt we're ever going to see the introduction of non-sport martial arts into the MMA curriculum. A fighter simply doesn't have the time to train Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu and then add an art with a hefty learning curve to that.

You of course have guys from TMA backgrounds like Lyoto Machida and his family's version of Shotokan Karate. But he competed in tournaments so adapting it for MMA wasn't as complicated.

Also, you have to keep in mind that the person in the ring is competing against another highly trained fighter. Applying an Aikido/Jujutsu technique on a non-athlete is one thing, but trying it against an athlete that knows how to fight is something entirely different. Visit a BJJ school and train for an afternoon if you get the chance. It's a very enlightening experience.

Last edited by Richard Stevens : 12-18-2012 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #64
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

MMA like UFC has evolved over time and as with anything, you begin to realize efficiencies in strategies that are successful based on the parameters of the fight.

There are many folks in MMA with Aikido backgrounds, but you won't see them using stylistically what many would like to see in a fight because of the realized efficiencies.

Occasionally you will see some deviations and revolutions in fighting such as Machida. However, as time progresses and fighters learn more, these will become less and less. Go back and watch the early UFCs and how the fighters evolved and changed strategies based on rules and the fighting enviorns.

Heck, I don't even like to watch it much anymore since it has gotten so close in strategies and competitiveness. Although, one of my past training partners and fellow Army Ranger, Colton Smith won the Ultimate Fighter this week so I was excited to see that!

You don't see wrist locks in UFC cause they simply don't work in most cases. Most guys have figured out how to negate them, or there are things that you should do to win the fight that are easier and less risky to your strategy to do.

It would be the ultimate in stupidity to go into the ring with a strategy based around a style of martial art such as aikido and attempt to restrict yourself to only those things you are accustomed to in your dojo. They tried that in the first few UFCs and look at the results. Folks figured it out pretty quickly. There is a reason the call it MMA.

If Aikido methodology worked they way most are accustomed to training for UFC, then we'd already be seeing it used wholesale in MMA. Money is too good to not see it if it was of value. So no, it is not a matter of time before we see a large scale revolution in adoption of an aikido fight strategy in MMA IMO.

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Old 12-18-2012, 05:01 PM   #65
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

Ewen wrote:

Quote:
Judo is far easier to amalgamate into MMA because MMA has a strong grappling base in collegiate wrestling. Judo is effectively an alternative to wrestling.
Nitpicking, but I think there is a flaw in your logic. you see wrestling and grappling in MMA because it has proven to be a useful base in winning MMA. Judo is a form of grappling so therefore, it is easy to adapt those skill sets. It is not because MMA has a strong base in collegiate grappling. it is the inverse. wrestling did not inform or constrain MMA, it is simply that the rules of MMA are conducive to grapplers in general.

Nitpicking I know, and you probably actually meant to say what I said above. Sorry if so.

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Old 12-29-2012, 10:41 AM   #66
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Re: Do we need another Steven Seagal?

For anyone who hasn't seen the Voice vs Steven Seagal interview...

http://www.mmatko.com/the-voice-vers...complete-show/

B
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