Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-06-2012, 06:33 AM   #1
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,209
Offline
aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago.

He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine.

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.

When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 12-06-2012 at 06:40 AM. Reason: i forgot i which could be a good thing to forget myself. ;o)

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 07:15 AM   #2
Chris Knight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 138
England
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

very nice post

regards

chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 07:37 AM   #3
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,004
Japan
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

To Mary Eastland,

Hello,

I have kept out of all the public discussions, but I would like to respond to your post.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.
PAG. I also teach aikido and I believe that the things that are very real to you are also very real to me, though I would probably not express this in the same way.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago.

He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine.

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.
PAG. All this really goes over my head, or under my feet. I do not live in the US and I am pretty unlikely to train with any of the people you have mentioned. So I regard the discussions on AikiWeb as exercises in rhetoric, with all the problems that this entails.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.
PAG. I have never met Mr Gleason and cannot speak for him, but what I have read on Aikiweb suggests to me that he goes and trains with Mr Harden because of his previous training with Yamaguchi Seigo Shihan and that Mr Harden is helping him to explore and develop what he learned from Yamaguchi Shihan. I also studied with Yamaguchi Sensei and if I lived in the USA and was able to, I would almost certainly do the same. Now, I have to look hard at my present situation and balance what I would like to do with what I can actually do. I do encourage students however, to get out as much as they can and in Europe this includes training with Mr Akuzawa and Mr Harden if possible.

I understand your defensiveness in relation to the Aikikai, for I have first hand experience of this organization. However, like you I am relatively free in what I am able to do, but there is also an issue of commitment here. Nevertheless, I remember two memorable training sessions in Himeji, with participation from Aikikai (myself), Yoshinkan (Michael Stuempel) and Shodokan (Peter Rehse with Japanese colleagues from Shodokan Hombu). In Japan there are still dojos scattered around the country where what I would call old-style aikido is still practised. They never advertise and have to be searched for.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.
PAG. Yes, my sentiments, also.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 07:42 AM   #4
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.
Mary,

Your propensity for seemingly never getting what I say accurate is beyond the pale of reason. I have NEVER said that I was too busy to visit. I did say that I was very busy and that if I was able to be around that area, I would stop by. I currently run two businesses. That means six days a week of work with 12 hours days as the norm. My dojo is always open to for visitors and I would assume that yours is as well. If I am in the area, I would have no problem training with you and Ron.

At a minimum, I would greatly appreciate it if you would check with me your beliefs about what I say before trying to publicly state any alleged positions, statements, ideas, etc. of mine. I am frankly tired of this pattern of constant distortions.

I hope that This once again, clarifies things for you.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 09:51 AM   #5
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,084
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

How did this become an Aikikai issue? There are just as many (more) people outside the Aikikai training this as inside, from what I can tell...

Koichi Tohei, and I'll mention him since you're in a Tohei related lineage, went way outside of Aikido to develop what he's doing - that wasn't a problem for you?

Anyway, I'm not sure that you should judge what Dan is doing by George or Stan - no offense to either of them, that would go double in my case.

As for:

Quote:
The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me.
I really don't see how anything the IP crowd is doing conflicts with that at all. I've seen more humiliating in regular Aikido - even directly from Koichi Tohei - then I've even seen in that group.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:08 AM   #6
mrlizard123
Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 128
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP.
Hey! I'm not old and I'm... ok, the guy bit is fair enough

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.
I'm assuming you mean this discomfort purely in something like a social context? Do you train in such a way to advance yourself up to the limit of your comfort and beyond? Otherwise doesn't it make progress slower/harder/etc? I assume you don't mean you aim to remain within your comfort zone at all times?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.
I think this is great and I'd agree with it but I'm not sure your comments regarding sheep and herds are congruent with this vision of action at no one else's expense. I consider myself to be a person of reasonable intellect and intact faculties; I subscribe to the same idea or ideas as other people based upon the merits of experience and evidence, not to be part of a group. It seems to me you are implying that people who find merit in the IP/aiki field and want to participate in public discussion are somehow not free and capable individuals who happen to agree with a particular set of ideas and concepts through their experiences.

People can be enthusiastic and I understand that you might perceive this in the way you have but without knowing people personally I'd not be in such a hurry to brand them as you do with your statements regarding herds; from your continued expression of your perspective I could suggest you are a "blinkered horse" unable to see that which you have in front of you... I don't because I think it would be unfairly rude on my part; I have not met you and have no direct experience with what you're doing etc. It's also ok for each of us to disagree and believe that what we do is different/correct/better/whatever. Talking about our feelings in this regard is also ok, as is not participating where we don't feel like it's conducive to progress. I may agree or disagree with the manner in which you describe some things but that's by the by unless I know for sure that it's not simply a misunderstanding based on terminology.

For example you use the term inner strength and I could assume you mean this in some manner relating to the discussions about "IS" or "IP" or "aiki" as per many of the threads on here and then point out where I think that's not correct, but I'm not sure so won't make the assumption. If you mean it in terms of something like mental/psychological/spiritual fortitude then I would probably agree and think that this applies in many types of training paradigms including those espoused by proponents of the IP/aiki training methods; though think this is a different subject to the "internal" subjects that are often a staple for discussion/debate/argumentation i.e. "inner strength" != "internal power"/"internal strength"/"internal skills" (pick your poison).

Rich

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:11 AM   #7
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,950
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.
.
I find the times I learn and grow are when I am willing to be uncomfortable, which is part of why for over 15 years I have made it a point to visit all kinds of dojos and seminars within pretty limited budget and time constraints.
Not all end up offering something I want to pursue further, but I have never felt that I was in danger and I have never felt that it had been a waste of time. There is usually something that I can bring to my daily practice.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:31 AM   #8
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Yet, I could be wrong.
We have this in common.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:55 AM   #9
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Sounds like you are happy with your training, the people you train with and the culture your dojo has cultivated. Awesome. Really. That's pretty much all any of us are after.

Different people are after different things just as different people learn through different methods. Some people snowboard and some sick-backward-bottom-dwellers ski, it's all good.

(And just to be PERFECTLY clear, I mean my first paragraph whole heartedly, please don't put any sarcasm into it where none is intended. My jab at skiers is completely a joke, my daughters ski and I love them anyway...)

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #10
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 894
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago.

He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine.

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither.I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.

When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.
First, I think it is fair to say we all like our way better. I highlighted this comment because like and dislike have little to do with correct and incorrect. Eventually, if we hang around long enough, our aikido will fall under criticism. The rub is that it will either work or it will not. You get to say things like "my partner has bad energy", or "you're not sensitive," when you are white belt, maybe even black belt. But at some point your aikido will have to work, or you will be dismissed as one of the many people who are satisfied doing something with their time. I like my aikido; I understand that it has a ways to mature before it is correct.

Second, you don't have to buy into the concept of besting another. But you do have to buy into the concept of besting yourself. That's masakatsu agatsu. Showing up and doing what you like will get you so far. After that, it gets you a seat to the back row where people stop looking for advice. Again, I like the idea that I should leave class better than when I entered class.

Third, I do not like to be part of yet another thread intended to trash internal power. It works. If you do not like it, fine. But the herd mentality in aikido is of the majority suppressing the minority because the minority message rattles the foundation of aikido(TM). Internal Power just happens to be the flavor of the day (or days, as it turns out to be). Call BS, don't work with them. Eventually, you will be on the mat with one of these people and it will be plain who is better. This comparison will have nothing to do with what you like to do; it will have everything to do with who have been training aiki and who has been training aikido.

I appreciate the frustration with the Internal Power groups. I understand the close network of excellent individuals; the top of the mountain starts to get small and crowded. The problem is shouting them down only works if it is loud enough no one can hear them talk. The problem is people are listening. Save yourself aggravation. Block the posts, call their stuff BS and roll the dice.

The extend to my criticism goes as far as calling out the IP crowd. I have the same arguments with people to denigrate the MMA'ers, judo people and karateka who all want to help and learn about aikido. If you don't like it, fine. But right now it just seems like we're scared of them because they may actually know what they are doing...

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 01:54 PM   #11
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
First, I think it is fair to say we all like our way better. I highlighted this comment because like and dislike have little to do with correct and incorrect
True enough, but sometimes 'like' encompasses more than a straightforward emotional reaction, as people very often use it as a way of saying that what they're doing helps them meet their own personal goals. I.e., as a way of saying 'I don't regret the choices I have made and am making, looking at the options I see around me I still make the same choices, and every other person is free to make their own choices as well, which may very well be different from mine.'

It's no different from anything else in life.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 02:17 PM   #12
stan baker
Location: east granby, ct
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 174
Wake Island
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Hi Mary
You did fine too like most aikido dojos I go to.
What Dan is teaching and actually doing is way
Beyond fine. Simple as that.

Stan
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 02:18 PM   #13
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better.
Hi Mary. With all due respect to all four of you, I think that it is a great disservice to yourself, Ron, George, and Marc to use them as the role model for IP/aiki at the time that you did. I would encourage you to revisit IP/aiki with Dan.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.
I'll let Dan speak for himself. He *sometimes* does so in an eloquent manner here on Aikiweb. (Yes, Mary, that was a dig at Dan. )

As for me, I've lost count of the times I've watched Dan work with someone new and he'll ask the other person, show me what you're doing. They do. Dan shows that person what he's doing. Then he lets them decide which way they think is better.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.
I can't say anything to you that will change your mind. How about, I just describe some of what I've experienced and you can take that, compare it to what you read here on Aikiweb, and ask yourself why those two are different for you?

Seminar example #1: As a beginner, I stood in a large room with no mats and probably 40 other people. Those people came from aikido, karate, taiji, etc. They all were curious about what was being said about IP/aiki. Working with them initially, I could see their doubts and reluctances to actually believe what was being said. I watched Dan work with each of them and watched as their doubts/reluctancy changed to hope, smiles, and laughter. I watched them trade back and forth on training their way and Dan's way. People were laughing then working up a sweat, then laughing, then working up a sweat. People from various martial arts were working together to train.

Seminar example #2: Repeat #1, this time with a couple of 6th dans in aikido. All of us having a blast at the seminar, laughing, then working, then laughing. Trading budo stories at dinner. Also, it wasn't just all men. There were women from various martial arts there, too.

Now, this continues through ... well, I lost track around 10. It's quite a sight to go to a seminar, look around at 4th, 5th, 6th degree black belts, koryu people, high ranking people from karate and taiji all working together, at times laughing until they are red in the face, then sweating buckets from training, then gladly swapping stories at dinner, trading contact info, looking to when the next time they can train together again.

I know that Aikiweb forums are tough to use to get a good feel for someone, or a group of people. I know that personally because reading Sigman's posts and then meeting him in person was like talking to two completely different people. After meeting him, I read his posts in a far different manner. All I'm saying is keep an open mind.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido).
Students are students. I would suggest withholding opinions about teachers until you meet them. Does Bill have very strong opinions? He does. Do I think he'd say something like that? Personally, I can't see him saying it, no. Could I see him talking about the differences between his training in Yamaguchi's dojos to Aikikai training in hombu and it being completely different? Yes. How students translate what he said ... could it have been misconstrued? Sure.

There have been times when I've gone back to Dan and asked to reiterate some point in training only to find that I'd misconstrued what he'd said. It happens.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.
I really don't think the end results we're looking towards are different.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 03:18 PM   #14
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
My jab at skiers is completely a joke, my daughters ski and I love them anyway...)
Whew! That was a close one! This skier was about to put the virtual smack down! Or at least to point out that we aren't afraid of gravity (we face it more head-on), unlike those sideways thinking boardheads...no disrespect...

Quote:
Mary wrote:
The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.
Despite the issues of remaining true to lineage, etc., we all practice our own Way; Aikido, to my mind, is about self-correction. That said, I am happy to be corrected by others, even when I think they're wrong...and when I'm not happy to be corrected by others I see it as a sign for me to pay closer attention. For me, everything is secondary to my personal path...and I'm often inclined to call a tomato a cat, but let's not call the whole thing off. We need exchanges with people who disagree with us and I would argue it's a better, more difficult practice than the alternative; one which is often underappreciated because of the unpleasant difficulties it often reveals.
The "IP crowd" tends to be very assertive. Ok, "take my wrist:" Maybe I am unable to make a beautiful form (like waza) from the interaction, but at least I can keep trying until I get a little better...and each time I can get a little better, and maybe eventually some crtical piece of info pops into place that makes things more meaningful on both ends of the exchange. The intent of my partner matters little where my self-corrective process is concerned. I can worry about their efforts to apply pressure or I can worry about how it's affecting me and address that part.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-06-2012 at 03:32 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 03:30 PM   #15
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 884
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

I don't really understand the reason for this thread. If you are not interested in what is being discussed just refrain from reading and joining in. Easy peasy. It really does not matter why. Your training your choice.

But honestly. If I held back from trying things that were outside of my comfort zone I would never have entered a dojo to begin with. As a student am glad I have teachers who are willing to give new ideas and different approaches a try. Their having done so has really given our dojo some amazing experiences and insights. Perhaps we might not carry it forward in our own training perhaps we may, but at least we had the choice.

I just don't understand why the need to be defensive and so loudly protest something which you are not forced to be a part of.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 04:22 PM   #16
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,811
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

i can't stand intolerance people! *sorry couldn't help meself*

i can see why don't care for the IP/IS folks. they are kinda in your face all the time with their IP/aiki is the true IP/aiki. they just get on your nerves. just this morning, one of those buggers was right in my face, staring down at me, snarling and making rude comments. then my wife walked in and said "why are you standing there holding the shaver and making strange noises?" i said "i can't decide if i should shave my goatee or not!" wife said "use the electric clipper!". i tell you that women just don't understand us men at all!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 09:56 PM   #17
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
.............

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.
I would offer that individuals like Dan......Ark and others...... are favoring your art. Maybe not directly, but it is happening. It is like only a few drops of chocolate in your milk ...it is not just milk anymore. It seems to me that the Dan's and Ark's openness and public instruction have allowed room...or space if you will.... have you seen some of younger Japanese instructors showing more of what would fall into the category of IP/IS? Sharing and exploring....

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.
Are you getting that he may be the "expert"?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.
You know Dan has stayed in our home twice during weekend workshops and Mark Murray has stayed once. I have been around both of them other times. They are both what an old friend would have called people who are first cabin. I have met many of the other that come to Dan's workshops who have been very friendly and helpful The azzhats just don't seem to come around. Dan's students Terri and Don....you couldn't ask for nicer people or ones that are more helpful.........so if you are not interested the this culture and not sure what road you are traveling on now.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.
Well I can understand that.....no wait.....I am 70 so I must be one of those old guys you are talking about.....

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.
In 1977 I went to my Aikido Instructor Harry Ishisaka Sensei and ask if it would be ok for me to train some Karate.....his response was do it. I had my taste while continuing my Aikido. Later I ask again and trained for a short time with Danny Inosanto's group in Torrance in 1978 (I still have the grey training shirt after all these...doesn't fit). All of this helped, was fun and added to my Aikido. Even today I am still exploring outside the art.....it is just needed.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.
Read your entries again out loud and see how they lay themselves out....then ask yourself how they sound if you spoke them..

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.
If this stands up for you then good for you....

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.
As I am likely considered one of the Danettes even an older one......not sure if this offer would still be out there....if we visit one of our friends on the East Coast (not Dan) I'll try to bring my old bones by and see if you let me in.......

Just go straight...

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 06:55 AM   #18
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Ok, here are my real thoughts about the herd thing. It often comes sideways so I will just say it here and be done with it.

Ron and I teach Aikido. (I will speak for myself here)...The philosophy is very real to me, along with the waza and Ki development.

Ron and I went to a seminar that George taught at Marc's to see what this aiki stuff was all about as George was presenting it. It was ok. We had fun. We like our way better. We invited both Marc and George to come and visit us. We were told they are both too busy. Fair enough.

Stan B. came to our dojo to a seminar not long ago.

He could see we are strong and our students are strong. Dora and Stan had an encounter and Dora was fine. Stan seemed fine.

Our ideas about Ki development are changing and growing. Reading here and other places stretches us and makes us think and do different things. All good.

We have invited Dan here several times. He lets the invites wither. I feel it is because it is an invite to explore together and not have him be the expert. Yet, I could be wrong.

I am not interested in going to his place and this is the real reason, so listen carefully. I am not interested in the culture that I see around the posts on AikiWeb from most of the people that train in IP that post on here.

In my dojo I know how what to expect. I see a lot of old guy network in the posts around IP. I am not interested in putting myself in a place where I am uncomfortable.

When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.

Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.

The philosophy of self-defense without hurting another, without humiliating someone...to truly take care of oneself at the expense of no one is really at core to me. It is what makes Aikido a practice of deep determination and commitment. One can find strong inner strength through this practice.

If you are interested come see us. We would love to train with you.
Mary
I have a number of PM's to you specifically stating I would come and train with you.
I have also remained complimentary of yours and Ron's efforts in spite of your repeated comments about me and those who train with me in an almost universally negative fashion. Ron has never expressed any interest in what I do.

I remain confused as to when these invitations took place and why they would ever have been extended in light of your rather consistently negative comments of me.

That said, again I think your training paradigm would only be enhanced by what I do. If you or Ron could do anything to move me or successfully blend with me using ki, aiki, or even martial arts.....I would be very intrigued.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 02:25 PM   #19
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,816
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
But honestly. If I held back from trying things that were outside of my comfort zone I would never have entered a dojo to begin with. As a student am glad I have teachers who are willing to give new ideas and different approaches a try. Their having done so has really given our dojo some amazing experiences and insights. Perhaps we might not carry it forward in our own training perhaps we may, but at least we had the choice.

I just don't understand why the need to be defensive and so loudly protest something which you are not forced to be a part of.
I think one problem is that some IP proponents have sometimes made statements about the motivation, mindset, commitment, what have you of those who don't train with them (and, to be sure, the reverse has happened as well). When someone has a position that doesn't seem to make sense, we could probably all stand to curtail the impulse to find a reason that's based on a flaw of some kind: this person fears change, this person lacks commitment, this person is afraid to move out of their comfort zone, this person is brainwashed, this person is afraid of new ideas, this person is too lazy to change their practice. Nobody likes being called fearful, lazy, stubborn, closeminded, defensive, etc. and why should they? And even if you're 100% right in your assessment of their character, what does your observation accomplish? It almost never causes people to be more open to your ideas -- if they do hear what you're saying, they do it despite the insults, not because of them.

The thing is, it's possible to have useful discussions about motivation, mindset, commitment and what have you. It's almost never possible to do so in the second or third person, though -- not unless you know someone very, very well. I can talk with at least some authority about my motivation, mindset, commitment, and what have you. You, really, cannot.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 03:15 PM   #20
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

That was a great post Mary but I see things a little simpler than that.
IP people generally raise hackles because once they feel this they say this is Aikido.
it's my opinion that it has been a series of those in Aikido who choose to attack the IP people personally, describing them in every manner of derogatory commentary imaginable. I've seen it over and over, were I home at my computer I could prove it in about a half an hour: with articles from shihans and all manner of posts doing exactly as you described questioning motivations, practices, insinuating people are brainwashed, herd mentalities, con man, snake oil salesman.... the list goes on and on.
Opinion is not required.... I've saved many of the posts.

The real dispute should be over whether this work is in fact the original work Ueshiba was doing and that it is in fact the very heart of Aikido. It is that one...singular....point, that has caused people in the community to react and respond defensively. Being told you're not doing something correct or that you haven't understood something you been doing for years, is challenging enough for anyone. now hearing it is being played out and proved to be true on a worldwide stage, is not welcomed news for all parties involved. All too often this has evoked an emotional response from those in the community

I think we can all do better.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-07-2012 at 03:30 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 08:41 PM   #21
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 884
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think one problem is that some IP proponents have sometimes made statements about the motivation, mindset, commitment, what have you of those who don't train with them (and, to be sure, the reverse has happened as well). When someone has a position that doesn't seem to make sense, we could probably all stand to curtail the impulse to find a reason that's based on a flaw of some kind: this person fears change, this person lacks commitment, this person is afraid to move out of their comfort zone, this person is brainwashed, this person is afraid of new ideas, this person is too lazy to change their practice. Nobody likes being called fearful, lazy, stubborn, closeminded, defensive, etc. and why should they? And even if you're 100% right in your assessment of their character, what does your observation accomplish? It almost never causes people to be more open to your ideas -- if they do hear what you're saying, they do it despite the insults, not because of them.
Sticks and stones.....just because someone does or says something that one does not like does that mean one has to retaliate in like kind? Big deal if someone has that opinion. Does that change who you are? Does that make you less? If you know who you are and what you are capable of why does it matter if someone else, a stranger on the internet no less, has some other opinion right or wrong? if a person listens great, and if they choose not to hear you... well that's their loss not yours. What does it really take away from you?

Quote:
I can talk with at least some authority about my motivation, mindset, commitment, and what have you. You, really, cannot.
You have no idea of just what I can or cannot do. I did not speak about your motivation, mindset commitment other than to follow the thought you yourself posted about not being willing to step outside of your comfort zone and to be grateful that I have teachers who are not afraid to do so since it has benefited me. I am sorry that you are unable to do the same.

Quote:
Before you get defensive or sarcastic ...try reading this again. I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. I am just talking about what I see and feel.
Ditto.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 12-07-2012 at 08:44 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 08:01 AM   #22
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
When Bill Gleason's name comes I feel defensive because of some students that told us that they were not to train with us because we were not the real thing (Aikikai Aikido). Now Bill seems to be going outside Aikido to find Ki. You can do aiki in Aikido.You don't have to buy in to the Western philosophy of besting another.
Ummm... wow. I don't speak for Gleason Sensei, but I train with him and I can tell you this sounds nothing like anything he'd ever say. The idea that he'd hold the Aikikai up as the only "real thing" is... out of character. He's not anybody's idea of an organization man. And he has stood on the mat and told us to go out and train with everyone we can find, and see what we can pick up. Doesn't mean he has a high opinion of everything out there. But he encourages us to go see.

As for going outside of Aikido to find ki, PAG has it exactly right. Sensei says Harden's stuff is helping him to understand things Yamaguchi did and said, and that when he goes back and looks at Yamaguchi's videos that he now sees things he didn't see before. The whole point for him, and me, and a bunch of us is that we're finding Dan's stuff makes our Aikido better.

As for the "Western philosophy of besting another" -- Western? Really? O-Sensei never talked about the people he had bested? He never held those successes up as a reason for believing in his aiki? Guess he didn't. Glad to be set straight.

Sorry to bomb in on the thread and respond to one point without reading the whole thing, but I'm having a hard time keeping up with Aikiweb these days. In fact, I'm at a seminar with Sensei and the Devil Incarnate this weekend, but took out time for this. Happy training!

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 08:44 AM   #23
Howard Popkin
Dojo: Popkin-Brogna 大東流合気柔術銀柔会
Location: Long Island, NY
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 644
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Ummm... wow. I don't speak for Gleason Sensei, but I train with him and I can tell you this sounds nothing like anything he'd ever say. The idea that he'd hold the Aikikai up as the only "real thing" is... out of character. He's not anybody's idea of an organization man. And he has stood on the mat and told us to go out and train with everyone we can find, and see what we can pick up. Doesn't mean he has a high opinion of everything out there. But he encourages us to go see.

As for going outside of Aikido to find ki, PAG has it exactly right. Sensei says Harden's stuff is helping him to understand things Yamaguchi did and said, and that when he goes back and looks at Yamaguchi's videos that he now sees things he didn't see before. The whole point for him, and me, and a bunch of us is that we're finding Dan's stuff makes our Aikido better.

As for the "Western philosophy of besting another" -- Western? Really? O-Sensei never talked about the people he had bested? He never held those successes up as a reason for believing in his aiki? Guess he didn't. Glad to be set straight.

Sorry to bomb in on the thread and respond to one point without reading the whole thing, but I'm having a hard time keeping up with Aikiweb these days. In fact, I'm at a seminar with Sensei and the Devil Incarnate this weekend, but took out time for this. Happy training!
Say hi to Sensei and the Devil for me, I'm out sick this weekend Have fun !
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 09:20 AM   #24
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,559
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

I've known Dan quite some time due to my professional world of swords. The dude has never been shy to share his opinions (although that reminds me -- he posed a question once years ago about a sword smith yaki-ire secret that he never answered -- gonna have to try to pin him down on that). Anyway, after a couple seminars with Dan (and Mike S and Toby and...) I will say I just see my Aikido differently now. I have lost count of the number of things I've realized that I missed in the past. Things that now go through different filters and help me see them in different ways. Does it make anything "wrong"? Nah, I don't think of it that way. I see it as people trying to communicate stuff that is by its very nature difficult to communicate. And ironically as someone teaching myself I see the same "how do I explain this?" conundrum in everything I do as well. I get a lot from every training session no matter who it is I'm training with. Heck, Jun held a Aikiweb seminar years ago that had Threadgil, Ledyard, and Aaron Clark. I got a ton from all three men. Heck, I learned a lot watching one of Aaron's students, a lovely woman who it turns out was a musician. I saw things in her movement that caused lightbulbs to turn on in my head with respect to stuff I had learned that were in some senses totally unrelated. I love that stuff.

I love to learn. I love to stretch my brain. I truly dislike feeling comfortable in what I do as it makes me wonder if I've become complacent.

So y'all do whatever it is that floats your boat. And pardon my enthusiasm if I get a bit excited about something new I've learned even if it is just from watching a video of Ark hitting someone. Or realizing some deeper significance of something Toby mentioned in passing. Or having some epiphany about how I should be doing my Aikitaiso simply because of an exercise Dan taught me.

I really don't see a problem. And comments about herd mentality, "drinking the koolaid", that kind of stuff simply don't help. I see posts from some trying to "defend the honor" of Aikido as it is currently practiced. Fine, whatever, but it is a waste of air IMHO. Frankly I don't think it needs defending -- good god, how many 10's of thousands practice Aikido? Hundreds of thousands? Pffft. Ignore the rest of us if it isn't what you like. If we're wrong we'll fade away over time. Time and experience has a habit of helping vacuous trends to vanish.

Train. Train hard. Train well. Keep an open mind. And if you're the type that doesn't like disagreement or discussion, well, don't discuss. These are just pixels on a screen, devoid of power, devoid of any significance to the overwhelming majority of people. And Aikido will go where it goes no matter what any of us do.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 09:26 AM   #25
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,559
United_States
Offline
Re: aiki, aikido, tomato, tomahto

Now... To get Howard Popkin out to So Cal for an intro to Daito Ryu... Context, more context, I need more context. Give me more, more, MORE!!!!!

Come on folks, grin some. And let it go, life's too damned short. Let's all grab a beer and tell bad stories. Heck, the best part of any seminar with someone like Toby is hearing the stories about what was really going on with various martial arts histories... I sometimes think I learn more about how things came about after the seminars after some beer waza...

And fwiw... All these folks are just people. Regular folk wandering along their own path.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 02-01-2014 12:35 AM
Defining the word "Aiki" and looking at the phenomenon it describes. ChrisHein Language 80 11-08-2012 03:45 PM
Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations Allen Beebe Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 74 09-05-2012 10:44 AM
Ki Aikido - quote from Gleason Sensei Jon Marshall General 121 06-30-2010 07:08 AM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 09:31 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:40 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate