Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-06-2012, 05:25 PM   #1
camt
Location: Victoria
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 23
Canada
Offline
Kotegaeshi, help please

In the dojo, kotegaeshi seems to be easily applied and very effective. However, I was trying to show my friend the other day and it was extremely difficult to bend his wrist. He was naturally tensed up and expecting pain but I didn't think it would be so easy to prevent application by merely flexing forearm strength. Any help/tips appreciated!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 06:19 PM   #2
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Well the issue there is that the wrist twist is actually a small part of what makes the technique work. The real trick is to get your uke in a position where you can settle your weight over a point where they can be unbalanced. The "lock" really just serves as a mechanism to maintain connection with uke's centre.

I think this picture illustrates my point:

http://members.aikidojournal.com/wp-...kotegaeshi.jpg
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 06:24 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,940
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

You don't have to bend the wrist at all, really...it's an unbalancing of the whole person, and is based on the actual energy of the attack (you can't really "do it" to somebody who is standing there staring at you)...and when you are first learning it, it "works" in the dojo because your partners are giving their centers to you on purpose so you can practice it, just like you have to practice speaking a foreign language or driving a car, errors and all, as a beginner.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 06:44 PM   #4
camt
Location: Victoria
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 23
Canada
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Well the issue there is that the wrist twist is actually a small part of what makes the technique work. The real trick is to get your uke in a position where you can settle your weight over a point where they can be unbalanced. The "lock" really just serves as a mechanism to maintain connection with uke's centre.

I think this picture illustrates my point:

http://members.aikidojournal.com/wp-...kotegaeshi.jpg
That's an awesome picture! Thanks for that.

It definitely unbalanced him when I applied it but it was difficult to get him to go to the ground with it. I see what you're saying, but it feels so unnatural when I couldn't get that bend that I'm used to. I'll keep practicing!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 08:22 PM   #5
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Cameron,

The next time you try kote gaeshi on your friend, don't say anything, just grab him off-hand and throw with kote gaeshi, and see what happens.

If you pay close attention to what was different and the possibilites as to why it was different, I think you will pick up on some "secrets" that will guide you in your training.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been training?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:23 PM   #6
camt
Location: Victoria
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 23
Canada
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

I've only been training since September. So yeah I need a lot more practice time and I'll be asking my sensei for some help with it.

Any suggestions are welcome: I'm really curious to hear what other peoples experiences have been when they encounter people with strong wrists that do not bend easily.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:24 PM   #7
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,632
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Aikido techniques flow one into the next. If someone knows an Aikido technique is coming, it will not be difficult for them to resist. However when you use the techniques together they will work nicely. A good technique to use along side kotegaeshi is rokyo. Here is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.aikidostudent.com/oldasc/content/?p=301

Hope this is useful.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:28 PM   #8
Mark Gibbons
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 177
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

From the aikido dark side.

Offer your victim something to take from your hand. Take their balance as they reach for the object. Kotegaesh follows fairly easily. I've heard it even works while sitting in an office chair on wheels.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 12:24 AM   #9
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Great video, Chris.

Time flies!

And...

Cameron,

You're only about three months in. I wouldn't worry too much about demostrating aikido waza to your friends right now.

As you improve you will develop the ability to "force" techniques on people, but Like Chris and others said, that's not really the goal, and in many respects is a very limited strategy.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 01:42 AM   #10
JJF
 
JJF's Avatar
Dojo: Vestfyn Aikikai Denmark
Location: Vissenbjerg
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 780
Denmark
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Cameron,

The next time you try kote gaeshi on your friend, don't say anything, just grab him off-hand and throw with kote gaeshi, and see what happens.

If you pay close attention to what was different and the possibilites as to why it was different, I think you will pick up on some "secrets" that will guide you in your training.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been training?
uhmm... I think I would refrain from forcing anybody who are not trained in ukemi to take a kotegashi fall. Especially if it's outside of the dojo. Quite a big risk of hurting them badly.

Apart from that I think Michael is right. The 'tensing up' that will follow from the expectation that something is about to happen that may include pain will ruin any aikido technique. The thing is - as I see it - aikido dosen't really work unless uke is comitted to the attack, and that situation is just impossible to reproduce outside of the dojo unless it is an actual fight. Disclaimer: I am NOT encouraging you to pick a fight with your friends ind order to demonstrate Aikido

Point is - it takes a long time of practicing with reduced power and speed and a lot of cooperation before aikido becomes fluent and effective. We learn to react to the locks and that is what makes it safe for us to practice on the mat at high pace. If applied full speed on an attacker that is comitted to attacking you will most likely result in serious damage to him (or you if you don't get out of the way).

I rarely demonstrate anything on non-aikido people anymore except from nikkyo and yonkyo. It is not techniques that by them selves really show the essence of Aikido, but they can be applied with moderation and proves some aspects of the effectiveness of aikido.

My advice: get your friend to come to the dojo for a few months and try it out.

Have a great day

JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 07:43 AM   #11
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Jørgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
uhmm... I think I would refrain from forcing anybody who are not trained in ukemi to take a kotegashi fall. Especially if it's outside of the dojo. Quite a big risk of hurting them badly.
I find that kotegaeshi is a technique that you can apply rather vigorously even on beginners if you dont focus on the wrist twisting. After all, the "fall" is only a balance break from standing and you can dampen the impact with the arm you are controlling.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 09:27 AM   #12
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,796
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

there should be new aikido student rule:

do not try what you learned in aikido on your friends, family, significant others, neighbors, pets, aliens from outer space, and/or others not listed here without your teacher(s) consent

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 09:35 AM   #13
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
there should be new aikido student rule:

do not try what you learned in aikido on your friends, family, significant others, neighbors, pets, aliens from outer space, and/or others not listed here without your teacher(s) consent
Phi:

I have officially hired you as the caretaker of the elephant in the room...... .

What he said..........

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 10:33 AM   #14
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
In the dojo, kotegaeshi seems to be easily applied and very effective. However, I was trying to show my friend the other day and it was extremely difficult to bend his wrist. He was naturally tensed up and expecting pain but I didn't think it would be so easy to prevent application by merely flexing forearm strength. Any help/tips appreciated!
Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 10:48 AM   #15
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Aikido people tend to translate kotegaeshi as "wrist twist."

A better translation would be "forearm turn".

The wrist itself has little to do with it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 11:59 AM   #16
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 252
Philippines
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Jørgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
The thing is - as I see it - aikido dosen't really work unless uke is comitted to the attack, and that situation is just impossible to reproduce outside of the dojo unless it is an actual fight.

JJ
I've got different view on this one. The thing is one of the most difficult goals in aikido IMO is to make aikido work even with a non-committed partner. Saying such, I only really know the tip of the iceberg of what aikido has to offer. The beauty with this art is that sometimes it borders on the magical. You just get surprised you suddenly can do neat tricks after a few decades practice without understanding why and how you can do this. IMHO, we should not limit ourselves only to what we think are the possibilities with this art but seek what the art to really has to offer even though we think it impossible at first.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 12:21 PM   #17
camt
Location: Victoria
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 23
Canada
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.
Kotegaeshi was not working well against his strength but I did get a sankyo from a collar grab that had him spinning like mad on the floor. He's a trained wrestler and has some BJJ training; he actually tried to spin in for an arm bar on me. We did this in my living room so there wasn't enough space to pin him properly but I think I had him; and he admitted that he liked sankyo.

Just a disclaimer: were two very old friends and have been doing this stuff (wresling/goofing around) for many many years. We both know the risks and were just having fun.

Interesting comments to all of the above: I've learned quite a bit, thank you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 12:26 PM   #18
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 252
Philippines
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

It's easy to do kotegaeshi for someone with a locked wrist.

3 principles you need to know

1. If you can't move a part (either uke's or your own, like being held), do not attempt to move that part. Move whatever part you can move and start from there.
In the case of a locked wrist in kotegaeshi (assuming the arm is in front of him since it's the strongest position), move/stretch his shoulder so that his arm is now to his side. The more that his arm is to the side of him, the weaker is his wrist. The more the arm is in front of uke, the stronger the wrist. Look again at osensei's picture. You can do this static with the slowest of motions. Interesting experiment.

2. Every joint is connected to another joint. If one joint is locked, do not attempt to do a technique on that joint ( unless you're uber advanced), attack the next or next 2 joints. In this case. you can attack the elbow or the shoulder as the pointer above.

3. Take uke's mind. When uke locks on a joint, his mind is focused on that joint. You need to briefly distract him to remove his focus on that joint. This can be done 3 ways.
a. A slap/atemi on the face b. attacking another joint c. unbalancing him, in this case his focused is shifted to regaining his balance of course. IMHO, this is more important as a prerequisite prior to doing the technique. If this doesn't exist, you can't do the technique properly.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 12-07-2012 at 12:29 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 12:29 PM   #19
camt
Location: Victoria
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 23
Canada
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

I assume people have seen the Anderson Silva training video with Steven Seagal. He gives Anderson a few kotegaeshis(plural form?) with ease; albeit Anderson isn't ready for it.

Check out the vid if you haven't the first one is at 3:40ish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jIlljXq2Y
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 02:11 PM   #20
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,632
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

I think if you and your friend are able people and understand the natural risks of rough housing, it's great to try Aikido technique outside of the Dojo. I learned lot's and lots from doing this, I've also never broken anyones anything outside of the Dojo. Be smart, and figure out how your techniques work.

Aikido doesn't need anything extra to work, that you're not going to learn from 90% of the Aikido teachers out there. However you do need to take the time and figure out how you can use your techniques, that requires trying them, a lot, on lots of different people. Before you know it Aikido will seem simple and effective!

Good luck!!

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 04:35 PM   #21
Conrad Gus
 
Conrad Gus's Avatar
Dojo: Victoria Family Aikido
Location: Victoria, BC
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 243
Canada
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Cameron,

You train at UVic right? Ask Jason about different ways to do Kotegaeshi against resistance. He can show you first hand what you are looking for.

Cheers,

Conrad
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 08:27 PM   #22
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Cameron Tarr wrote: View Post
I assume people have seen the Anderson Silva training video with Steven Seagal. He gives Anderson a few kotegaeshis(plural form?) with ease; albeit Anderson isn't ready for it.

Check out the vid if you haven't the first one is at 3:40ish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jIlljXq2Y
Notice the angle on the kotegaeshi at 3:40. It is behind Silva, not in front of him.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 12:33 PM   #23
camt
Location: Victoria
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 23
Canada
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Cameron,

You train at UVic right? Ask Jason about different ways to do Kotegaeshi against resistance. He can show you first hand what you are looking for.

Cheers,

Conrad
Yes indeed, and will do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2012, 02:37 AM   #24
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Unfortunately, you just discovered one of the major shortcomings of Modern Aikido training: The "ukemi" model. You are trained to give up your center and fall in a specific manner. So, everything is going to work fairly well in the dojo. Everyone gets trained to do this.

If anyone disagrees, then try this and report back:

1. Get a teen wrestler with no aikido experience and try kotegaeshi, allowing the teen to use wrestling experience.

2. Get a BJJ practitioner and do the same.

3. Get a Judo practitioner and do the same.

4. Get a Karate/TKD practitioner and do the same.

5. Get an average Joe/Jane off the street and tell them to try not to comply and try it.

6. Get a Boxer and do the same.

Did any of them fall like a "normal" aikido practitioner? Or did a lot of other things happen?

Now, before you start in on all the rationalizations and excuses and explanations, answer the question on why Ueshiba could get 1-6 to work just fine, why everyone who trained with Ueshiba had to learn their own way of "ukemi" to protect themselves (they weren't taught by Ueshiba to roll and fall), and why this was also the case from the mid-late 1920s on ...

The modern "ukemi" model in Modern Aikido is a big problem.
1 - 6? No problem. I could kote gaeshi people from any of those groups.

I've done aikido for a long time. I've gotten good at what I do.

Did any of those people fall like someone trained in aikido? Do I care? Or could I effect the technique? What are you even asking?

Could Ueshiba really? Have you seen it?

Did taekwondo even exist? I know BJJ didn't, so it's safe to say Ueshiba never applied anything on any BJJ practioner!

How do you know Ueshiba didn't teach ukemi? What is your direct experience with that?

Are you aware of the fact that martial arts like wrestling, judo, BJJ, and MMA used something like the nage-uke model to teach techniques? You must be, right?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 03:29 PM   #25
Bill Danosky
 
Bill Danosky's Avatar
Dojo: BN Yoshinkan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Can't say for all styles, but in Yoshinkan it's hard to get Kote Gaeshi unless you can get uke to take at least one step. There is a noteable exception, because Kote Gaeshi is one of the few techniques we have that can be applied from the inside. That works at contact distance, but it's a harsh one to practice.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist? Hanna B Techniques 32 09-29-2011 09:54 PM
Manage Kotegaeshi srdjan General 5 01-05-2009 07:26 AM
different ways of applying kotegaeshi Mike Hamer Techniques 47 01-09-2007 10:45 AM
Kotegaeshi as an expression of love dps General 28 08-30-2006 08:14 PM
Tsuki kotegaeshi (Fulcrum leverage) Benjie Lu Techniques 6 03-28-2004 08:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:53 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate