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Old 12-05-2012, 10:07 AM   #326
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I left out another important part. At least then, Eric, you would get a chance to then accurately model what I am really doing. Even then it will not help anyone one single bit, in actually doing it, but you would know.
Dan
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:26 AM   #327
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Life and time are precious. There is no other endeavor.... BUT budo.....that doesn't require real results....... So two hundred pages of physics and mechanics that produces your average Nidan, or a collection of concepts and metaphors in real world training that produces world class power and aiki??
Tick toc
Tick toc
How about 200 pages of physics and mechanics AND a collection of concepts and metaphors AND real world training? Wouldn't that expand the student base? Why not nod at the base physical reality that is there, that can be researched and communicated?

Metaphor is useful but dangerous because it is not consistent between people. Clearly this is shown by the complete clusterfuck that happens here when someone tries to discuss anything more profound than what they had for dinner last night. We cannot communicate effectively about aiki because because we have not agreed on what aiki is. The neat thing about physics and mechanics is that the language used in science is pretty much fixed. Force is mass times acceleration. Mass is a measure of the amount of material in a body. Acceleration is the time based rate of change of the time based rate of change of position in a moving object. Because those terms are objectively defined, we can safely discuss forces, we can confidently make predictions about forces that are borne out in the real world, and we can design and build things that create or direct or withstand forces as they should.

I also find metaphor dangerous because it is very easy to stop thinking once someone "gets", or worse, thinks they "get" the metaphor, and they start to believe that the metaphor is the actual message. This is the foundation for religion and other forms of magical thinking. I want my budo to be strongly reality based and free of magical thought.

Mr Mead may be out there and mostly incorrect (as far as I can tell, and I am beginning to agree a bit with Mark Murray's assessment of Mead's hypotheses about the physics of IP as incorrect and not particularly useful) with what he is proposing as a scientific basis for IP, but if he is able to do functional, correct research, he can get to a real understanding of the physics behind IP. That would be a great boon to the practice and to humanity. He may or may not be able to embody his knowledge and practice what he preaches, but the preaching would not be incorrect. And it would be very useful to me, someone who finds value in precise, reliable, verifiable, repeatable explanation and instruction. While I am also physically (interesting word, that) experiencing and practicing what I am told will work in the real world.

It really is turtles all the way down, and the turtles are physics.

Dan, a rather superficial direct question for you. What is the best way to find your seminar schedule? Do you have a website that lists your calendar? I would love to put some of this argumentation to rest and be able to say that I have indeed felt you. My life requires great planning at the moment, and getting away for a seminar would take some advanced notice, like a month or so, and the seminar would have to fall at a fortuitous time. Do you know where you are going to be 3 months out, or is it catch as catch can?
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:32 AM   #328
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Sincere writers with the intent to truly inform, will write to the level of their audience. If they are missing that mark, the readers will provide feedback and the writer should adjust their writing accordingly. If this feedback is ignored and the writer continues with the same approach, it is very evident that the writer is not writing ‘to' their audience, but is writing ‘at' their audience with the simple intent to impress and not to inform; and the only thing being impressed is the writer's ego as his audience silently walks away with a sigh.
That is very true, and it goes both ways. Now, who is the audience for this discussion?
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:48 AM   #329
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
I also find metaphor dangerous because it is very easy to stop thinking once someone "gets", or worse, thinks they "get" the metaphor, and they start to believe that the metaphor is the actual message. This is the foundation for religion and other forms of magical thinking. I want my budo to be strongly reality based and free of magical thought.
problem is the eastern languages are full with metaphors. sort of like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58_xp8dGy5Q

asian are a bunch of dangerous buggers. can't trust 'em. one moment you ordered mu shu pork, the next moment to got mu gu gai pan or worst, poo poo plater! *urinating dog urinating dog*

Quote:
It really is turtles all the way down, and the turtles are physics.
turtles are not physics; elephants are.

*sorry for folks who aren't terry pratchett fan*

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:51 AM   #330
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
How about 200 pages of physics and mechanics AND a collection of concepts and metaphors AND real world training? Wouldn't that expand the student base? Why not nod at the base physical reality that is there, that can be researched and communicated?

Metaphor is useful but dangerous because it is not consistent between people. Clearly this is shown by the complete clusterfuck that happens here when someone tries to discuss anything more profound than what they had for dinner last night. We cannot communicate effectively about aiki because because we have not agreed on what aiki is. The neat thing about physics and mechanics is that the language used in science is pretty much fixed. Force is mass times acceleration. Mass is a measure of the amount of material in a body. Acceleration is the time based rate of change of the time based rate of change of position in a moving object. Because those terms are objectively defined, we can safely discuss forces, we can confidently make predictions about forces that are borne out in the real world, and we can design and build things that create or direct or withstand forces as they should.

I also find metaphor dangerous because it is very easy to stop thinking once someone "gets", or worse, thinks they "get" the metaphor, and they start to believe that the metaphor is the actual message. This is the foundation for religion and other forms of magical thinking. I want my budo to be strongly reality based and free of magical thought.

Mr Mead may be out there and mostly incorrect (as far as I can tell, and I am beginning to agree a bit with Mark Murray's assessment of Mead's hypotheses about the physics of IP as incorrect and not particularly useful) with what he is proposing as a scientific basis for IP, but if he is able to do functional, correct research, he can get to a real understanding of the physics behind IP. That would be a great boon to the practice and to humanity. He may or may not be able to embody his knowledge and practice what he preaches, but the preaching would not be incorrect. And it would be very useful to me, someone who finds value in precise, reliable, verifiable, repeatable explanation and instruction. While I am also physically (interesting word, that) experiencing and practicing what I am told will work in the real world.

It really is turtles all the way down, and the turtles are physics.

Dan, a rather superficial direct question for you. What is the best way to find your seminar schedule? Do you have a website that lists your calendar? I would love to put some of this argumentation to rest and be able to say that I have indeed felt you. My life requires great planning at the moment, and getting away for a seminar would take some advanced notice, like a month or so, and the seminar would have to fall at a fortuitous time. Do you know where you are going to be 3 months out, or is it catch as catch can?
You want your budo to be "reality-based"? It's simple. You have theories (or rather your own metaphors--nobody mistakes metaphors as reality themselves, but as pictures of reality--I am sure you have your own "pictures" or metaphors with martial movement) or your own preconceptions about budo. The only way you can know if it is "reality-based" is to test them in ...you know..the real world. I don't think it is metaphor is not the dangerous thing--it is the unwillingness to not test your metaphors or your mathematical formulas against brutal reality that is dangerous.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #331
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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That is very true, and it goes both ways. Now, who is the audience for this discussion?
Which discussion? - there are about five or so different discussions weaving their way through this thread

Greg
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:34 AM   #332
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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problem is the eastern languages are full with metaphors. sort of like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58_xp8dGy5Q

asian are a bunch of dangerous buggers. can't trust 'em. one moment you ordered mu shu pork, the next moment to got mu gu gai pan or worst, poo poo plater! *urinating dog urinating dog*

turtles are not physics; elephants are.

*sorry for folks who aren't terry pratchett fan*
As we can see in the STNG ep, metaphorical communication is very inefficient, requires an initially concrete, descriptive, objective vocabulary, and demands rather tightly shared experience. Not good for transmitting new information.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:36 AM   #333
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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The thing is: That's just what Dan is doing. He's talking about these things in a way that even me, a simple guy without your academic background or any medical expertise, can understand. ... Dan also provides the methods you need to "get this" from the start.

FWIW - there is nothing wrong with the terminology and methods Dan provides. The challenge lies in the willingness to put in the time and effort required to turn theory into practice.

Now, what was the original question again?
I understand and question none of that -- save one thing only: "Theory into practice." Practice requires no theory. None.

Theory, on the other hand, objectively worked out, tends to expand the realm of possibilities for refining existing practices and even new practical applications never before developed. That is the history of the West. Japan learned our lessons well. China is coming along. India likewise. Why should these matters be any different?

It is said , "In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they are not." That is because good theory, well conceived, always points beyond any practice of the moment. Where it points may have little immediate application to existing practice -- if all that concerns you is improving one's own grasp of existing practice.

We have different aims. It is the "what" of the thing not the "how" of the thing that I am aiming at on this topic. People who are practical-minded may view the "what" with disinterest relative to the "how" -- but it interests me. The "what" is not captured by the traditional training terminologies -- not in Western terms -- That terminology was never concerned with the "what" -- it was concerned with "how-to."

If our technical development had ignored theory in favor of existing practice, then we would all have DC elcectrical appliances -- and have to pay for fueling and maintaining household generators. As it is, we have large-scale generation and AC transmission -- which, in theory, was more efficient. But AC has all kinds of complicated practical concerns that DC lacks -- like cyclic phases -- which are not even problems encountered with DC circuits. But that theory changed the existing practice, resulting in cheap electrical power wherever a wire can run.

I find correspondence in much of what he describes -- as I would expect to if his practical methods work and if my conceptual work is at least in the neighborhood of reality, even if it still has rough patches. There are many of the "how-to's" --better or worse as understood or applied -- and I'll freely accept the testimony of all concerned that his is among the better. That is not and never was the issue. I am not concerned with promoting any methods, be it my own (I have none) or any others, and to presume such is to utterly miss the point.

Quote:
Budo as a science seminar!!
Since I have no "methods" to compare -- and I think the traditional ones work just fine, properly understood (and which seems to be a point of general agreement) -- what is the point of a meeting to compare? "What" or "How"? What would be compared -- apples and pineapples? I am not saying no, just asking what the purpose to be accomplished would be.

This came later:
Quote:
At least then, Eric, you would get a chance to then accurately model what I am really doing.
True. There is no substitute for observation and experience -- My point is that what I think I experienced and what actually happened may diverge when the causes, effects and perceptions are -- physiologically speaking -- out of sync and the sequence of events and perceptions is not reliable subjectively, which is a critical part of what I am looking at as part of the mechanism. As much or more than "feeling" it for myself would be to watch others feeling it too -- because watching it objectively, the sequence remains intact, and undisturbed by the internal delay/disconnects built in to our different perception and action pathways.

Some of this eagerness to meet on the one side versus reticence on the other gets routinely misinterpreted -- it is largely a matter of personality -- extroverts versus introverts. Extroverts love company; introverts, not so much. I look for more intensive contact on ideas and things of particular personal importance -- not for contest, nor for fests of general convivial presentations. I got into law so I could avoid unending business meetings and constantly competitive goal-setting -- not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'd rather take apart a brief and build a better line of thought, and argue the point. From a standpoint of budo, while contingency rules-- if find I have contest on my hands-- then something was wrong with my strategy. If it is premised as a contest -- I have zero interest. I have oodles of conflict everyday in my profession -- which oddly, I do enjoy -- but certainly have no desire to go looking for more of it. And beer waza would need to be mandatory.

Somebody asked or suggested Fresno, at some point I think. I lived in California for almost seven years and I never went to Fresno -- not that there's anything wrong with Fresno.... I did try in good faith to arrange something down here a few years back. It got quite unnecessarily tangled up. As a result, there is little interest amongst anyone else here who has to be consulted. I would not go far out of my way , here or elsewhere, despite the invitation. Fact is that I have not taken a vacation in five years, and if I did -- my wife has dibs on any significant travel -- and would kill me to take one solely for this purpose. Something in Atlanta might be doable -- Jon Reading and Mike Magno are at Emory, someone might inquire if they have any interest, perhaps, and ask if they would want to host or coordinate. My wife likes the Scott's Antique Market, and that will keep her occupied for a goodly part of a weekend. So for my druthers it would be one of those weekends, (January 10-13 • February 7-10, March 7-10 • April 11-14) but not January or February for me, as I have major hearings to prepare that would conflict.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:43 AM   #334
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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for this purpose. Something in Atlanta might be doable -- Jon Reading and Mike Magno are at Emory, someone might inquire if they have any interest, perhaps, and ask if they would want to host or coordinate. My wife likes the Scott's Antique Market, and that will keep her occupied for a goodly part of a weekend. So for my druthers it would be one of those weekends, (January 10-13 • February 7-10, March 7-10 • April 11-14) but not January or February for me, as I have major hearings to prepare that would conflict.
There have been talks about Atlanta in January already, so nudge away in that direction.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:44 AM   #335
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Which discussion? - there are about five or so different discussions weaving their way through this thread
ONLY five ...?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:13 PM   #336
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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I understand and question none of that -- save one thing only: "Theory into practice." Practice requires no theory. None.
Well - my point was that the real work is in taking what you are told in words and by example - and turning it into something physical / mental that you actually do to improve your skills - and not just discuss online

Yours friendly,

K. Sandven

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Old 12-05-2012, 12:39 PM   #337
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Something in Atlanta might be doable -- Jon Reading and Mike Magno are at Emory, someone might inquire if they have any interest, perhaps, and ask if they would want to host or coordinate. My wife likes the Scott's Antique Market, and that will keep her occupied for a goodly part of a weekend. So for my druthers it would be one of those weekends, (January 10-13 • February 7-10, March 7-10 • April 11-14) but not January or February for me, as I have major hearings to prepare that would conflict.
We can make something happen. We are off campus now and in our own place. Just had our first seminar with Steve Fasen and it was great (if I do say so myself). Nudge away...

To be fair, Shindai dojo in Orlando is having some real heavyweight aiki do people next year. Steve ran down the list and staggered me... Ledyard, Messisco, Gleason, to name a few. I will be there for at least a few, if not several...

George Sensei mentioned some issues with the communication language and after reading more posts about Internal power I'd agree - I think we need to let the IP lead that dance and give us the language. If we want to try our own translation after we see what they are doing, fine. But, I think we owe it to see what they are doing before we pass judgment.

As I see it, the future of aikido in the US could be great. We have some excellent aikido people here. I think that does place some pressure on the elite groups to migrate the Eastern curriculum into the West and establish a Western transmission process. So while I appreciate the specificity to comprehend the Eastern delivery methodology, I am looking forward to these guys once they make the transmission change.

I think these forums are advantageous to help the community more concisely define and clearly illustrate aikido, yet we tend to not consolidate our lexicon. I guess its individual choice, but the IP guys are trying to tell us how they do things and we are saying, but we "do it this way". So?

When I first started playing golf, my coach looked at my swing and gave me a golf ball to keep in my pocket. No science (I was 13), but that ball changed the way I swung. Right now, I am damned if I can do it. Once I do, then I'll try to explain it.

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Old 12-05-2012, 12:42 PM   #338
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I mean Dan H and Mike Sigman don't agree on much of anything in this universe, maybe even multi dimensionally, but they can actually talk to each other and argue using a common language which both understand.
Ledyard Sensei,

I have a question about this. Just because Dan H and Mike Sigman have a common language doesn't mean that they are using the terms to refer to the same things.

Would you say they share a common underlying model and methodology, despite their disagreements? If so, and if they both are at a high level (as some people claim), it seems odd to me that they don't recognize each other's abilities and understanding.

What do you think?

Just curious,

Conrad
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:00 PM   #339
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
You can certainly have a "clash" of forces within ones self. For example pushing with the shoulder dillutes any power generated below it, as pushing with the shoulder pushes back into ones self and negates some of the power generated elsewhere.

I'm not so sure this applies to the balloon model, as local muscle usage is reduced, thus the "dillution" discussed above does not happen to the same degree.
Thanks for the reply, Hunter! I can definately see clashing in my own body: in trying to "push" from some given area I find other areas tightening up which then seems to limit my range as well as my ability to approach that range (and thus, I assume, my overall power potential)...nevermind subtler aspects of moving that I'm not cued in to yet.
I forget what prompted the balloon analogy, but I remember a physics class showing vectors going in opposite directions. In a sense they're clashing (i.e. opposite directions), but they also create a more or less balanced interior pressure which when combined with the elasticity of the balloon, makes for interesting load tranfers (pushing into one point will apply pressure throughout). If we can control the elasticity at will, I would think we could diffuse incoming pressures and shape their direction. If we picture a balloon sitting more or less on top of the hips with a pole running vertically, with limbs and whatnot, you have roughly where my mind is at with trying to apply "internals" concepts to strengthening and balancing my structure. This balloon idea is basically where my mind goes when I try to consider a union of opposites; as I twist my torso, for example, I can feel the "balloon" develop stretches and they're never as symmetrical as I'd like them to be (i.e. opposites not unionized...er...something like that).
Does that more or less fit with your understanding?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
turtles are not physics; elephants are.

*sorry for folks who aren't terry pratchett fan*
I'm hoping to round out my Discworld Doctrine this Christmas; I find it's good for the soul...or least one of them occupying at least one of the myriad foamy universes.
I'd also just like to say thanks to Krystal for speaking with a clarity I've regularly failed at in these conversations. It's been a pleasure to read.
Take care, y'all!
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-05-2012 at 01:04 PM.

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Old 12-05-2012, 01:03 PM   #340
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Ledyard Sensei,

I have a question about this. Just because Dan H and Mike Sigman have a common language doesn't mean that they are using the terms to refer to the same things.

Would you say they share a common underlying model and methodology, despite their disagreements? If so, and if they both are at a high level (as some people claim), it seems odd to me that they don't recognize each other's abilities and understanding.

What do you think?

Just curious,

Conrad
Mike doesn't move anything like me. And from what I hear, we don't teach the same stuff either.
Train with Mike, train with Ark, train With Sam...just go train, listen and feel.
Dan
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:21 PM   #341
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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As we can see in the STNG ep, metaphorical communication is very inefficient, requires an initially concrete, descriptive, objective vocabulary, and demands rather tightly shared experience. Not good for transmitting new information.
and the situation here is different how? IP/IS folks said hand-on time for shared experience. other folks said we should be able explain it in words. IP/IS folks = tamarian, other folks = federation. in the STNG ep, the tamarian capt came up with a good solution. and yes, no knowledge/understanding without sacrifice. sacrifice in this case = get off your butts and get some hand-on time, then come back and let us know if you can describe it in technical terms. and if you don't get off your butts, then "when the wall fell".

if you do get your hand on dan or one of the IP/IS folks, ask them to do a zero-inch punch, then see if you can explain that in term of F=ma. the m is easy to explain. the "a" is a bit harder since it's "m/s/s and m(distance)=0". try to figure out how to make "a" non-zero is quite interesting.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:31 PM   #342
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I have a question about this. Just because Dan H and Mike Sigman have a common language doesn't mean that they are using the terms to refer to the same things.
haven't meet dan, but i believed they have more in common than they argued about. but then again, i don't know if we want them both in the same room. it's kind of like matter meets anti-matter. personally, i am willing to be uke in that case. i can take them!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:33 PM   #343
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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if you do get your hand on dan or one of the IP/IS folks, ask them to do a zero-inch punch, then see if you can explain that in term of F=ma. the m is easy to explain. the "a" is a bit harder since it's "m/s/s and m(distance)=0". try to figure out how to make "a" non-zero is quite interesting.
How far does that zero-inch fist travel into the target? Wouldn't that make a non-zero "a" easy?

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Old 12-05-2012, 01:43 PM   #344
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
How far does that zero-inch fist travel into the target? Wouldn't that make a non-zero "a" easy?
F1=m1a1 (nage - one who did the punch)
F2=m2a2 (uke - one who got launch)
F1 = F2
a1 is the one that's interesting. zero-inch punch = nage fist flat against uke body, no draw back any part of the body. this is one of the teacher tests, i believed.

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Old 12-05-2012, 02:14 PM   #345
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
F1=m1a1 (nage - one who did the punch)
F2=m2a2 (uke - one who got launch)
F1 = F2
a1 is the one that's interesting. zero-inch punch = nage fist flat against uke body, no draw back any part of the body. this is one of the teacher tests, i believed.
I get there's no draw back or chambering, but there is still movement at the point where the strike begins (regardless of how much windup), right? In other words, there is still an accelleration of mass into the target mass, even though it starts from contact, right?
<sigh> I need to relearn physics. Why must we lose it if we don't use it? I was hoping my knowledge would age like wine, but each time I go back to retrieve a bottle it's missing. There seems to be some entity sucking it all up...and I hate to think of what it's been replaced with.
Mr. N. Tropy what have you done with my fine spirits?!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:36 PM   #346
phitruong
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I get there's no draw back or chambering, but there is still movement at the point where the strike begins (regardless of how much windup), right? In other words, there is still an accelleration of mass into the target mass, even though it starts from contact, right?
everything accelerates forward. i can tell you from uke point of view, since it was done on me. the pressure of nage fist on my skin/body contact point didn't change, then boom me flew into the wall a few feets away and i meant flew as in my feet off the floor kind of flew. the question is how did nage accelerate his mass, without drawing back or chambering of anykind, through a zero distance? took me awhile, as in years, to figure out and have been working on it with some modest success where i can launch myself across the kitchen and grab some coffee.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:40 PM   #347
Howard Popkin
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Phi,

I love you man
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:42 PM   #348
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Phi
Everything is mass and acceleration. The differences are how much mass and the levels of acceleration we use that most of you are simply not capable of doing. And we....are going to get better as we age (to a certain point). Tissue recruitment is a starting point for a hands on discussion since it can be shown that normal people are greatly deficient. I have never run into an argument on this point in person. The models I use are fairly self explanatory and the manner in which people fail are rather obvious. This flies in the face of the "athletes" who think they go it down and they actually sometimes the worst ones in the room as their tight bodies cannot generate force in a whole body move the same way.

They argue and debate their high level sport science western modes of movement studies....then fail over and over. Then ask me how to do what I am doing.
Dan
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:06 PM   #349
Mert Gambito
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Sigh. This thread is the poster child for why this stuff was developed and survived . . . in Asia vs. the west.

Mert
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:10 PM   #350
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Sigh. This thread is the poster child for why this stuff was developed and survived . . . in Asia vs. the west.

Mert
Hey! I resemble that round-eyed remark.... The good news is that there is an ever-growing body of westerners who are working on this stuff (and SLOWLY getting better). I think that the larger issue is the difficulty in letting go of what we think that we know and being open to experiencing something different.

Regards,

marc abrams
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