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Old 12-03-2012, 09:56 AM   #26
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 387
United_States
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Re: For those who wonder how to use aikido against fast punching

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
yes i did not propose a double end bag because that's not geared to condition for evasion and for dancing around but for hitting which aikidokas don't need and arguably don't even want to do
Those bags are standard in boxing but are used to condition you to HIT a mobile target not really to evade it besides with double end bags you can evade straight punches but you will never dodge to evade hooks

The best would be a short bag like here at 00.48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUDogb3zO0U
but do not just evade also dance around abundantly for in a real situation you will need to take away the distance frequently unless you're fighting inside a phone boot lol

Most scenarios won't have much space but will have some although in a bar you may trip on stuff fallen around when people panic and begin leaving the place in a disordered rush as you're left there to mind business alone and security may take a while at times to take over
I've found the double end bag very useful for evasion. Hang it a little high (which is a good idea anyway, condition yourself to punch up), put enough tension on it so that it bounces around quickly, but not so much that it doesn't have a couple feet travel if properly smacked, get in close and give it a stiff jab. Just use weight transfer and upper body evasion to avoid getting hit by the return.

But, fights dont always go down like you describe, and we cant train for every situation. It isn't punching, squaring off and floating like a butterfly that wears someone out in a fight. It is fear, having to maintain a heightened sense of awareness, and having to deal with a ginormous adrenaline dump. The only fight I was actually in (meaning that the attacker had engaged me directly rather than me intervening in other folks fights) doing security lasted about 45 seconds, did not involve me moving anything but taking one step into a hanmi and flapping my jaw as I talked the guy down, ended perfectly well, and left my entire body sore for three days.

I think it is better to work on psychological self control and dealing with physiological fear responses than dealing with overly specific defense techniques. If self-defense is what we're training for (and it is fine with me if it isn't) than we would do well to work on the non-physical as much if not more than on the physical. That training has been lacking, at least on an upfront, explicit level in every dojo I've trained in.

To tie it back into aikido, if only loosely, take an On Guard class from Kevin Blok sensei if you get a chance. He will at some point in the class talk about the mindset most likely to get a person home for dinner. Comes across like pirates and ninjas and zombies and Neil DeGrasse Tyson and everything cool and worth watching doing the St Crispin's Day speech from Henry V. You KNOW he's been there, done that, got the tshirt, and is telling you your real business.

The other side of the real fight training question is this... If aikido is a budo of love and harmony, how many dojos provide training in mediation, de-escalation, and communication? Mine doesn't, and I wish it did.

This is a bit more of what it looks like, in my experience. Rambling, skill-less, back and forth, lots of useless folks getting in the way and making things worse, jawingjawingjawing, most likely drunk....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frMg7...3&feature=plcp
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:26 PM   #27
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
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Re: For those who wonder how to use aikido against fast punching

yes but you know you are right your points make sense

I do not train routinely with that ball in my first video but actually with this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnbGQas8n4g
however proposing this last video would have made no sense and this is why I didn't because this type of training is for a boxer and my intention is not that of transforming an aikidoka into a boxer
Besides the type of exertion that in this video is required is fourfold the one needed in the first I proposed

However I post it so that you may know that I appreciate your consideration and that I totally concur with you in fact it has always been included in my routines
But an aikidoka won't need that much you see

My point is for those who may be interested in taking conditioning a few steps further because a fistfight may impose upon them demands that are totally unexpected so condition yourself a bit for that scenario

Seasoned black belts know this but I have seen countless junior black belts in aikido who seem totally unaware of how demanding a serious fist fight could be

In order for an aikidoka to condition for that 30 mins of workout like in my first video may suffice I would never suggest to any aikidoka to train like in this second video for an aikidoka has a need to evade but not to strike although you evade a bit too in the second video

Thank you for the video you proposed about an average fight indeed they look like that one I could not agree more

But I hope you can see my concern namely were an average aikidoka to meet a decently conditioned fighter he won't last 30 seconds as Michael said and this not because he is stupid but because he is not properly conditioned to dance with the fighter in order eventually to manage grab an arm

A fist fight with a fair fighter won't be like randori you won't iriminage a dude like that he will impose on you a heavy rhythm
So (if you want) be prepared so not to be stunned and to this purpose my first video for an aikidoka may be enough

thank you to you all for your attention and intelligent contributions

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 12-03-2012 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:44 PM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
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Re: For those who wonder how to use aikido against fast punching

Conditioning is an obvious factor and something we should all do to the best of our ability. However, it is not everything and in "real fighting" it is not the highest priority. Fight Management is what is paramount to everything. That is, knowing how to manage yourself efficiently in the high stress environment.

I have trained highly conditioned Special Operators that have gassed out rapidly in like 30 seconds because of poor fight management skills. The problem is fights tend to be highly anaerobic versus aerobic. The problem with anaerobic is that it is hard to create a sustainable threshold so an decently conditioned person is not that far from a world class conditioned person in the 30 to 60 seconds that a fight will most likely last.

That is not to say that conditioning is not important at all cause it is important for many other reasons, however when you start talking about a fight where in a matter of a few seconds adrenalin, fear, and energy expended can rapidly deplete your ability to fight...having the skills to actually manage the fight under extreme pressure is much more important.

I personally don't put a high priority on learning to fight like a boxer which is a different management strategy for conditioning and skill.

Your better off gassing yourself out rapidly over and over again doing sprawls and burpees that work the large muscle groups vice spending anytime on punching bag. Your better off spending time in SPEAR suits with someone overwhelming you with punches and kicks while you learn how to manage the fight while trying not to throw up.

If you are going to do conditioning for fights it is all about developing a strong anaerobic capacity. However, even then in real fights it is the guy who gets the jump who usually wins or the guy whose buddy shows up next that determines the winner.

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Old 12-03-2012, 10:45 PM   #29
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,133
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Re: For those who wonder how to use aikido against fast punching

Kettlebell swings, just good old kettlebell swings.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:47 AM   #30
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
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Re: For those who wonder how to use aikido against fast punching

Quote:
Nobody wants to be in a fight
I think this is pretty obviously untrue. For one thing, to be pedantic, if one person is trying to get away (i.e., doesn't want to be there), that's not normally called a 'fight', it's an attack, which isn't the same thing (and would require different strategies as well).

In any case, if nobody really wanted to be in a fight, there wouldn't be so many fights. This is especially true when people start talking about 'street fights' and 'bar fights', which seem to be pretty much entirely avoidable, and easily so, with very few exceptions.

Personally, I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out how to win a 'bar fight'. Don't go to places there are likely to be bar fights, don't stay in a place where there are people who seem 'off' in any way, and don't get in arguments with crazy people. Voila, problem solved.

Muggings and the like are a far more interesting problem.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:29 AM   #31
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
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Re: For those who wonder how to use aikido against fast punching

Quote:
Don't go to places there are likely to be bar fights, don't stay in a place where there are people who seem 'off' in any way, and don't get in arguments with crazy people. Voila, problem solved.
Naturally the above doesn't apply if you're a bouncer or police officer; of course if you are you'll have different concerns and priorities than I do.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:28 PM   #32
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 387
United_States
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Re: For those who wonder how to use aikido against fast punching

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I think this is pretty obviously untrue. For one thing, to be pedantic, if one person is trying to get away (i.e., doesn't want to be there), that's not normally called a 'fight', it's an attack, which isn't the same thing (and would require different strategies as well).

In any case, if nobody really wanted to be in a fight, there wouldn't be so many fights. This is especially true when people start talking about 'street fights' and 'bar fights', which seem to be pretty much entirely avoidable, and easily so, with very few exceptions.

Personally, I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out how to win a 'bar fight'. Don't go to places there are likely to be bar fights, don't stay in a place where there are people who seem 'off' in any way, and don't get in arguments with crazy people. Voila, problem solved.

Muggings and the like are a far more interesting problem.
This raises a good point that I have been thinking about a lot lately. I am a bouncer. I am NOT paid to fight. I would be fired if I fought with someone. I am paid to stop other people fighting and i am paid to stop people who are attacking other people. It can be a fine distinction, but it is often an important one. In my opinion, a fight is two people agreeing in the moment to try to injure each other for whatever dumbassed reason, mutual combat. An attack is one person trying to injure another person without the attackee's consent. Different scenarios, different responses from me.

I have found that there are often three phases in a fight. I call them fussin', fightin', and fuckin'. I have the best shot of surviving stopping that fight if I intervene in either the fussin' or the fuckin' phases. In fussin', folks are working out a contract to fight. If I interrupt that negotiation, I can remind them about jail, the shame of getting pwned by an old fat lady, the loss of the price of admission, etc. It can work. But if I am late or unsuccessful, they start fightin'. I dont want any part of that shit, flying fists, beer bottles, possible weapons, screw that. Time to call my coworkers over. Because after a few seconds of fists, they clinch and start rolling around on the ground fuckin'. Fun to watch, but now is the safe time to get these people out of the venue. They are way too interested in the other man on top of them to pay much attention to the crew coming up to choke, I mean Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (That's Cop-ese for hadakajime which is Japanese for would you like to take a nap now thanks) them right out, cuff them, and haul them out of the building. That's why there are so many youtube videos about "Why dont the fat donut eating cop wannabe's DO something!?!?!?!?!!?" Both people want to duke it out, they wont be talked down, they haven't done anything actionable yet, oh wait now they have and I am NOT getting in the middle of those two dogs fornicating. Wait, wait, now. Find the safe place, let the technique develop. Good aikido.

I dont like dealing with attacks as much. Attacks are not mutual, unpredictable, and someone is getting screwed without their consent. Pisses me off, and I dont do good aikido when I am pissed off. Attacks usually call for more immediate action, I am usually alone of with one other person, and attackers are usually more motivated to do real harm than mutual combatants. They have a purpose, and it is bad. If someone is being attacked, I am scared, but I feel an ethical imperative to intervene as best as I can. Get backup now, get the victim out of there, incapacitate the attacker and get them into the hands of the police ASAP.

I dont fight. It is stupid. I am ocassionally attacked, only once seriously (the weapon's presence made the attack serious more than the wielder's intent), and I had the space to deal verbally with that one. The attacks require swift response. If the attack is serious and I have no space, my response will be complete survival. Fuck them, fuck ethics, fuck aikido, fuck their TAPOUT tshirt, fuck common courtesy, I'm going to bite their esophagus out.

"Your Honor, I was afraid for my life, I had no idea what my attacker wanted, knew, or was carrying. I was just afraid for my life. I responded out of pure fear."
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