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Old 11-27-2012, 07:28 PM   #201
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
There was one on one of the Chen;s on aikiweb maybe 5-7 years ago too, by someone from Stanford, I think. I remember the authors being puzzled how the guy was generating forces 14x his body weight.
Is that the same person who was not just Chen, but also Xingyi? I have a link to a video or two of him somewhere, Hunter. IIRC, it was mentioned that it was his Xingyi-trained fajin that was being observed in a Stanford study done by kinesiology grad students. One video measured power output, and in the other they were using motion-capture equipment to try to figure out what kinds of movements he was making when he emitted fajin.

The sensors were able to pick up only gross motor movement -- the external manifestations of his internal power actions. Since the students evidently weren't aware that he was doing something other than conventional athletics-type movement, they wouldn't have considered that they'd need sensors that could track movement in his dantien, mingmen, diaphragm/torso cavity, etc. (dunno if the technology can do that). So they were just as baffled at his power after the experiment as before.

Hidden in plain sight.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:54 PM   #202
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Found the study, still looking for the video clips. http://med.stanford.edu/mcr/2008/taichi-0507.html
Looks like it was "just" taiji, but I coulda sworn he also is a xingyi man. Brain must be getting fuzzy with age...

EDIT: Ah, here's one clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN88QIsMHqA

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-27-2012 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:25 PM   #203
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Found the study, still looking for the video clips. http://med.stanford.edu/mcr/2008/taichi-0507.html
Looks like it was "just" taiji, but I coulda sworn he also is a xingyi man. Brain must be getting fuzzy with age...

EDIT: Ah, here's one clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN88QIsMHqA
this him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3q9yCwU5zA that's not just taiji.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:41 PM   #204
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If you want to talk about personal, look at any post where Dan talks to me. You will see him several times in each post making little comments and quips about me.

Here is a quote where Dan says some stuff about my teacher, and my teachers teacher. It doesn't get much more personal then that. These are people I care about, and Dan makes totally unsubstantiated claims.

So Dan, which of my teachers teachers did you "bounce" around? What is his name? I am in his lineage, so I would like to know who it was. There is no need to keep his name secret, so who was it, I can ask him and learn what he has to say in the next few days.

You can't have it both ways. Either you want to have a real discussion here on the internet, which is where you spend lot's of your time. Which is what we are here to do. Or you can get out from behind your computer and meet with me in person.

It is personal, I am from a fighting lineage. I am expected by those who taught me to stand up for myself and my school. Dan, I say you make up stories and are to scared to come out from behind your computer and show me what you claim to know. If you have any martial ability at all this shouldn't bother you, you should be happy to show me my error. Publicly in front of anyone who is interested in seeing what "real IP" looks like.

I've had enough of this.
I see you talking alot about spirit and about your teacher and all this...do you think this is the best way for you to represent your teacher and to show people your claim that you are in touch with your spirituality?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:11 PM   #205
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
this him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3q9yCwU5zA that's not just taiji.
Yes, that is he. It looks like he started in Baji, but the lion's share of his training has been Taiji. One of his teachers trained with Chen FaKe.

I'm glad I dug up the study and clip again, because I'd forgotten the details. One other thing that's interesting is his ability to voluntarily control his peripheral vascular system -- "on command," he raised the skin temperature of his hands by 2 degrees F, then lowered the temperature by 6 degrees F. All this while surrounded by scientists and connected to data-recording equipment.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-27-2012 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:43 PM   #206
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
One other thing that's interesting is his ability to voluntarily control his peripheral vascular system -- "on command," he raised the skin temperature of his hands by 2 degrees F, then lowered the temperature by 6 degrees F. All this while surrounded by scientists and connected to data-recording equipment.
Most folks can learn to do that on a biofeedback machine although I admit I'm not sure how many degrees - I did some temperature shifting, yes demonstrated with a handheld thermometer, via visualization/somaticisation of moving ki specifically as part of migraine treatment (the idea being, in TCM, that there is a need to decrease blood flow/heat in the head and increase it in the hands when there is migraine present). I admit that I don't work on it that much since the migraine meds are so danged effective...but point holds, it isn't that hard to learn to effect your autonomic nervous system (which is what controls the peripheral vascular system)

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:40 PM   #207
Travers Hughes
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I'm glad as well. If you are interested in training with me, I will give you solid skills that you can count on and back up. As my teachers did for me.

If you want to tell stories and skirt the issues you should train with someone else.
Hi Chris, this post was under mine, so I'll assume you're addressing me. If not, apologies.
Maybe I'm mistaken but what stories do you think I am telling and what issues do you think I'm skirting?
(Feel free to drop me a PM if you like, as per Jun's note if it's personal and note relevant to the discussion).
Cheers
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:13 AM   #208
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I am trying to figure out whether you think this is something specific for Aikido or for a specific style of Aikido or for Endo shihan, ...
I have never experienced atari the way Endo sensei teaches it with a teacher not having a background in Endo's aikidō.

Quote:
... whether or not there is a difference for you between musubi and "blending".
For me there is a difference between blending and atari.

Quote:
The video itself does not help to clarify the counter argument. Perhaps you care to elaborate?
atari to me means more or less connecting via "opposing" forces. (see the example I tried to give Mary: Pressing one's palm against one's fist.) This for me comes near to what can be called clash.
Short spoken there are two general types of atari: atari initiated by tori like shown In the video. (-> Excersices where uke "stands still" first and tori "presses" against him.) Or atari the atari can be initiated by uke. (-> Excersices where tori "stands still" first and uke presses against him. This is a setting like in most ki-Tests I know.)

musubi to me means more or less connecting via "adjusting" forces. Bringing different forces together and creating one new out of different ones. This to me has more of blending, merging, or - to use the direct translation - to knot together of different forces.

Sorry for answering so late: I overlooked your posting.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:21 AM   #209
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Jaemin Yu wrote: View Post
Well.. IMHO I see slow but tremendous power is moving directly toward uke.
This is how it feels when this is done: Power coming toward me, being uke. Not being able to enter. tori. But interestingly he is entering me. Suddenly it is him who moves me. Most often I am not even able to withdraw myself.
Interesting enough this "slow but tremendous power" is not hurting, is not hard, is not fighting. Not at all. Becouse this power enters into uke and takes over the control of his movements.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 11-28-2012 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:42 AM   #210
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
He may have said that but it is not what I saw.
Well, Endo sensei uses words very thoughtfully. He is very carefull about what he says, because it is often connected to certain thoughts or texts with a daoist or buddhist background. And he is revising the texts - both: Japanese and English - of his videos.

As I said before: Even if colliding is the right word, feeling still is very soft and the experience of this "collision" is not hard or hurting in any way. So maybe it is this softness that you see.

When I am talking about clash or blending it is not about hard and soft or things like that. But it is only about technical aspects, about how a connection is made.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:34 AM   #211
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
this him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3q9yCwU5zA that's not just taiji.
Wow - very beautiful to watch - nice music too. Thanks for sharing that!
Tom
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:44 AM   #212
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Speaking of which, why is it that you never...ever...mention all those other people who have met me, Sam, Ark or Mike and what they have written?
Hello Dan

Just to clarify as a point of reference for those who (for whatever reason) can't get hold of you: Could you confirm that those named above, in your opinion, are "vetted" people who are working on the same kind of skills and in a similar league to how you are using them? Also, I can't tell for sure if you aren't saying you met these people in the above sentence. Did you?

Thanks for any response.

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
This is how it feels when this is done: Power coming toward me, being uke. Not being able to enter. tori. But interestingly he is entering me. Suddenly it is him who moves me. Most often I am not even able to withdraw myself.
Interesting enough this "slow but tremendous power" is not hurting, is not hard, is not fighting. Not at all. Becouse this power enters into uke and takes over the control of his movements.
Dear Carsten

Since there is a particular definition of "Aiki" being used here with regards to the question of forces clashing, would you say Endo Shihan has it? Do you think what he does is comparable to Dan Harden, Akuzawa Sensei, Mike Sigman et al?

Regards

Carl
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:24 AM   #213
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello Dan

Just to clarify as a point of reference for those who (for whatever reason) can't get hold of you: Could you confirm that those named above, in your opinion, are "vetted" people who are working on the same kind of skills and in a similar league to how you are using them? Also, I can't tell for sure if you aren't saying you met these people in the above sentence. Did you?

Thanks for any response.
Regards
Carl
Carl
Various people have ranges of skill when it comes to this work. I would say that any of those you mention are working on their versions of internal power, but they are different. There are others as well. The best thing for people to do is to go and feel, see who or what you like and go train with them. I would also say it is VERY wise to go train with a series of people who supposedly have something different. Some people have more tissue recruitment than others and this can be tested and felt. They will have more "whole body movement from Dantian" than others. People accent and work on power differently. If you get out there with hands on unusual people you will see what I mean. So the best way for anyone to make a decision that benefits themselves is to go test and feel.

Dan
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:20 PM   #214
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Carl
Various people have ranges of skill when it comes to this work. I would say that any of those you mention are working on their versions of internal power, but they are different. There are others as well. The best thing for people to do is to go and feel, see who or what you like and go train with them. I would also say it is VERY wise to go train with a series of people who supposedly have something different. Some people have more tissue recruitment than others and this can be tested and felt. They will have more "whole body movement from Dantian" than others. People accent and work on power differently. If you get out there with hands on unusual people you will see what I mean. So the best way for anyone to make a decision that benefits themselves is to go test and feel.

Dan
Thank you.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:43 PM   #215
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Well, Endo sensei uses words very thoughtfully. He is very carefull about what he says, because it is often connected to certain thoughts or texts with a daoist or buddhist background. And he is revising the texts - both: Japanese and English - of his videos.

As I said before: Even if colliding is the right word, feeling still is very soft and the experience of this "collision" is not hard or hurting in any way. So maybe it is this softness that you see.

When I am talking about clash or blending it is not about hard and soft or things like that. But it is only about technical aspects, about how a connection is made.
The blades of scissors are opposing forces that clash, and collide in a sense, but if they actually impact one another they jam and are obviously working wrong. They have a still point of connection where one is fixed and the other in rotation -- and a moving point of connection that advances on a line. Their action is soft, connected, meshing, blended and they do not harm one another at all, --- but they destroy anything that comes between them.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:06 PM   #216
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The blades of scissors are opposing forces that clash, and collide in a sense, but if they actually impact one another they jam and are obviously working wrong. They have a still point of connection where one is fixed and the other in rotation -- and a moving point of connection that advances on a line. Their action is soft, connected, meshing, blended and they do not harm one another at all, --- but they destroy anything that comes between them.
As a physical interaction they describe perfectly what NOT to do to make aiki. On contact; it's tenkan or irimi, not aiki.
Dan
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:39 PM   #217
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The blades of scissors are opposing forces that clash, and collide in a sense, but if they actually impact one another they jam and are obviously working wrong. They have a still point of connection where one is fixed and the other in rotation -- and a moving point of connection that advances on a line. Their action is soft, connected, meshing, blended and they do not harm one another at all, --- but they destroy anything that comes between them.
What a profound description. Thank you.

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Old 11-28-2012, 05:08 PM   #218
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Now, if you can use physics to validate the walk-run cycle or use physics for animated human movement, or use physics in robotics, then you've just earned a nobel prize for doing something other physicists can't explain.
...
I disagree. Reference the above walk-run cycle above. There is no basic physics involved in that.
Actually -- there is. Humans are a multiple inverted pendulum -- and you stabilize a multiple inverted pendulum by bouncing it vertically from the support at a certain range of frequencies of simple harmonic oscillation (can we spell -- "furitama"?). See here for a triple- pendulum, stably inverted -- stability of this system requires no feedback control whatsoever -- just the pure physics of motion. The stability parameters (frequency range etc.) are given by a diffy-q Mathieu function.

Walking is just moving the pendulum from one support to the other in an alternating series (a second oscillation -- at right angles to the first) -- which now makes it complex harmonic oscillation -- and thus a potentially chaotic system -- in the technical sense.

The existence of this basic oscillatory stability regime and mechanism was demonstrated empirically in 1908, though the dynamics -- even of the simple pendulum -- were not successfully analyzed until the 1950's. Chaos as a fundamental principle arrived in the 1970's, but the chaotic aspects of this kind of stability were only grasped beginning in the 1990's. But I doubt any prizes are being handed out at this point. Although some kinks remain.

Walk/run transition is simply a change of the frequency range of the system's oscillation and which also drives a change in the series structure of the number of alternating supports (a bifurcation point -- in chaos terms), The number series of supports changes from the walk series (1,2,1,2,1, ...), to the jog series (1,1,1,1,1... ) to the run series (1,0,1,0,1, ...) -- but we'll leave those three loops of the resulting chaotic attractor (and their additional lateral sway components - forming a third oscillation) for another day, shall we?

All the neuro-muscular stuff is involved in slewing any disturbance outside the stability range back within the broad limits of the stability regime. All props to the IS/IP crowd for what they work on doing within it -- this is the sandbox of stability that they play in. The physics says so.

The oscillatory component dynamic or (what is missed by those who resist the physics on this point) its physical equivalent in potentials -- formed by poising moments within the body ) -- is the inherent basis for aiki manipulation of stability. The physics AND Ueshiba said so -- and showed so ...the spirit of bees and of the demon snake, the red and the white tidal gems, in-yo ho, and the chinkon-kishin (furitama, funetori, udefuri, tekubi-furi, ibuki kokyu, etc. etc. etc.)

Last edited by Erick Mead : 11-28-2012 at 05:11 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:18 PM   #219
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The blades of scissors are opposing forces that clash, and collide in a sense, but if they actually impact one another they jam and are obviously working wrong. They have a still point of connection where one is fixed and the other in rotation -- and a moving point of connection that advances on a line. Their action is soft, connected, meshing, blended and they do not harm one another at all, --- but they destroy anything that comes between them.
As a physical interaction they describe perfectly what NOT to do to make aiki. On contact; it's tenkan or irimi, not aiki.
Dan
Considering all of the above I find that interesting in view of the following:
Quote:
Moving in accordance with in/yo means you now have a supported neural tangent point that is supported from dantian -in itself that is created in a balanced state ... a continuous flow of tangents outside of you that never allows force on you
Now I was giving an example of a simple system that met the otherwise paradoxical-seeming description of Endo Sensei on the point of atari rather than aiki as such. But this statement is worth exploring also -- since I did not attempt to apply any direct correspondence to anything else in terms of aiki -- but you seem to have done so implicitly albeit as opposites. The theologians call that via negativa -- the negative way.

So how would you describe more explicitly the negative of the definition of aiki that you see in the components of the scissors image in your terms ? I have some observations from what you have said that you might comment on in that regard or others I may have mentioned:

Quote:
Moving in accordance with in/yo means you now have a supported neural tangent point that is supported from dantian -in itself that is created in a balanced state- that now allows you to create a disruption using a balance of in/yo in internal and surface movement,
This comment seems to be relatable to the fixed point of rotation and support of the advancing point of contact in the cut and the tangent nature of the blades' action...

These descriptions seem also to find some relation in the scissors figures-- even if only negatively -- but perhaps usefully...
Quote:
Projection first occurs once again from the management of opposing forces creating a state in your frame and structure. This can expand outward or contract inward.
The focussed point of the scissor cut projects from the opposing forces driving the structures in a rotating tangent. While the scissors advances the point of cut outward -- similar mechanisms are used as a linear sliding cam action to contract or draw a point of attachment inward toward the center of rotation -- or to project a component away from it. Suriage, and kiriotoshi use this manner of action in something close to two axes (like scissors), but suri-otoshi uses it in three axes.

Quote:
It may expand outward in 360 degrees. it may be focused to a point, or it can be applied in a rotating tangent, or it can be applied expanding *around* a contacted point supressing or dampening all vectored resistance.
.. You can make two spherical spirals mesh just like scissors -- they can do this either in placing two spirals turning through one another (gearlike) on different axes, passing linearly through one another on the same axis, (turning like a screw or simply passing though both with a moving point of action -- like the scissor cut) or even collapsing and expanding in opposition to one another on the same axis and with the similar points of contact action.

The simplicity of ordinary scissors is the linear equivalent. It is less complicated to visualize the immediate action. The sphere spirals and rotations is what Ueshiba spoke of -- but they are not as different as they seem from the simple scissors. Rotations -- even potentials bring up another related point:

Quote:
This leaves them continually reacting to your movement and trying to respond to a non sourced change they cannot apply force on.
... "non-sourced change" ... a valid way of describing a coupled action that lies 90 degrees out of phase to the actuating change -- that kind of thing can be felt in a gyroscopic system -- and also in coupled pendulums or their static potential equivalents of poised moments. FWIW.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 11-28-2012 at 06:21 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:23 PM   #220
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Most folks can learn to do that on a biofeedback machine although I admit I'm not sure how many degrees - I did some temperature shifting, yes demonstrated with a handheld thermometer, via visualization/somaticisation of moving ki specifically as part of migraine treatment (the idea being, in TCM, that there is a need to decrease blood flow/heat in the head and increase it in the hands when there is migraine present). I admit that I don't work on it that much since the migraine meds are so danged effective...but point holds, it isn't that hard to learn to effect your autonomic nervous system (which is what controls the peripheral vascular system)
I remember reading something about that in an article on biofeedback, years ago.
I wonder whether there's a point in here... that once you know the components of the "what" and the "how," it "isn't that hard to learn..." Sokaku Takeda said something along those lines with aiki - that it's too easy to learn, so don't tell any foreign folk how to do it.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-28-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:38 PM   #221
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Okay, WHAT????
Besides the MIT like explanation. Comparing scissors to the movement of the human body is a poor comparison indeed(one joint compared to many) and a linear 2 dimension movement to spherical 3 dimensional movement for starters. Last time I checked linear and spherical were two distinct concepts, granted they can be combined when talking about a three dimensional being such as ourselves, but good luck trying to get people to follow that one. I think I went blind in my left eye trying to reread that .

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:13 PM   #222
phitruong
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Walking is just moving the pendulum from one support to the other in an alternating series (a second oscillation -- at right angles to the first) -- which now makes it complex harmonic oscillation -- and thus a potentially chaotic system -- in the technical sense.
"potentially chaotic system" - you meant exploding? so your walking model would potentially causing a person to explode as he/she/it takes the first step? would that not be messy to clean-up? wouldn't their internal be external?

Last edited by phitruong : 11-28-2012 at 07:27 PM.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:37 AM   #223
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Considering all of the above I find that interesting in view of the following:
Now I was giving an example of a simple system that met the otherwise paradoxical-seeming description of Endo Sensei on the point of atari rather than aiki as such. But this statement is worth exploring also -- since I did not attempt to apply any direct correspondence to anything else in terms of aiki -- but you seem to have done so implicitly albeit as opposites. The theologians call that via negativa -- the negative way.

So how would you describe more explicitly the negative of the definition of aiki that you see in the components of the scissors image in your terms ? I have some observations from what you have said that you might comment on in that regard or others I may have mentioned:

This comment seems to be relatable to the fixed point of rotation and support of the advancing point of contact in the cut and the tangent nature of the blades' action...

These descriptions seem also to find some relation in the scissors figures-- even if only negatively -- but perhaps usefully...

The focussed point of the scissor cut projects from the opposing forces driving the structures in a rotating tangent. While the scissors advances the point of cut outward -- similar mechanisms are used as a linear sliding cam action to contract or draw a point of attachment inward toward the center of rotation -- or to project a component away from it. Suriage, and kiriotoshi use this manner of action in something close to two axes (like scissors), but suri-otoshi uses it in three axes.

.. You can make two spherical spirals mesh just like scissors -- they can do this either in placing two spirals turning through one another (gearlike) on different axes, passing linearly through one another on the same axis, (turning like a screw or simply passing though both with a moving point of action -- like the scissor cut) or even collapsing and expanding in opposition to one another on the same axis and with the similar points of contact action.

The simplicity of ordinary scissors is the linear equivalent. It is less complicated to visualize the immediate action. The sphere spirals and rotations is what Ueshiba spoke of -- but they are not as different as they seem from the simple scissors. Rotations -- even potentials bring up another related point:

... "non-sourced change" ... a valid way of describing a coupled action that lies 90 degrees out of phase to the actuating change -- that kind of thing can be felt in a gyroscopic system -- and also in coupled pendulums or their static potential equivalents of poised moments. FWIW.
Now we're talking.... Can you two PLEASE keep this part of the thread going? I can see the potential mechanics of dual opposing spiral movement much more clearly having considered and expanded the scissors model, and the model strongly reminds me of shearing movements I can use directly and immediately in my aikido, but I still dont know what it is that is moving in the dual opposing spirals in IP. Is it my limbs, a sequence of internal muscles/physical structures contracting/activating, or is it something else?
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:41 AM   #224
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
"potentially chaotic system" - you meant exploding? so your walking model would potentially causing a person to explode as he/she/it takes the first step? would that not be messy to clean-up? wouldn't their internal be external?
I think it is more like dancing to dubstep than actually going asplode. Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO-jKksQkM

Interesting movement qualities, especially in light of recent questions about motion capture vs reality, physics vs biology, and damn, he can freaking move.... What would aikido/life be like if I had that much awareness and control over where my body was in space?

Last edited by Krystal Locke : 11-29-2012 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:54 AM   #225
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Now we're talking.... Can you two PLEASE keep this part of the thread going? I can see the potential mechanics of dual opposing spiral movement much more clearly having considered and expanded the scissors model, and the model strongly reminds me of shearing movements I can use directly and immediately in my aikido, but I still dont know what it is that is moving in the dual opposing spirals in IP. Is it my limbs, a sequence of internal muscles/physical structures contracting/activating, or is it something else?
I laid out my ideas a few pages back. Neither I or anyone who has trained with me, Ark, or Mike, recognizes anything that Eric talks about. He uses different parts and pieces that work in opposition to his own other pieces to make theories that contradict themselves and cancel each other out in whole body movement.
But we could "talk about it" for years. Are you really interested in something that works? Really?
Want to get past talking about it?

Lets host a joint seminar.
Eric's Scientific model of aiki
Dan's Model of aiki
Why?

The bottom line is simple. Beyond all debate and lengthy and discussion:
1. The results of his theories (of what Ueshiba was doing) produced him, right?
2. The results of my theories (of what Ueshiba was doing) produced me, right?

Let's find out which model produced results that were amazing, exceptional, unusual or different.
You could even scan the internet and find out who has met us both and what they had to say. You know, sort of like buying car. Consumer reports and all that. Maybe that might help you decide.

Do you want unusually powerful skills? Who feels like what?
Dan
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