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Old 11-27-2012, 11:52 AM   #176
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

For those that really want to see and feel what Dan is doing and how it relates to Aikido, the best person to go see is Bill Gleason - I believe he will be on the west coast soon - so for those that have a hard time getting away from their keyboards and videos, get off your @ss and take a laptop with you

Greg
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:04 PM   #177
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

To have a stab...

Aiki is a unification of center; a grafting of a dominated center onto a dominating center. I am not sure I would use the term "clash" because that implies there is a period of oppositional struggle. There is not. I believe Takeda sensei used to refer to this unification as defeating your opponent in an instant [by glancing at him]. I also believe Ueshiba sensei used a similar reference.

Atari is the point at which centers meet, a confrontation. I like this term better because it leaves out an implied action to follow. This is an older term and I think Endo sensei uses it well; to be fair, several of his students use it also with clarity too, Gleason sensei comes to mind (I think he talks about this topic in one of his books).

So yes, for me aiki has confrontation. Of confronted centers, one will become dominant and others will be dominated. For me, this is what I call kihon - the root of anything we will do in aikido must first begin by unifying and dominating my partner's center. The trick to it is making your center dominate without resorting to "doing" something to your partner.

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Old 11-27-2012, 12:14 PM   #178
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
As this debate has gone on, I have gotten a lot of emails. Emails from people like me, who said you did the same thing to them, you made outrageous claims, then wouldn't let them come to your seminars.

I claim that all the "work" you have done is for not.
wow, all this "work" is for not... why? There is another thread talking about Dan being the best martial artist, but it wasn't just based on skill, the other reasons given were the heart and spirit he has and his desire to teach and show.

Many of us don't have this IP/IS thing. So let's just say you're as good an athlete as Dan and can do what he does and you do have it. So now what? What other values are you portraying that would make people want to learn from you? If it is just good athletics then many of us want to learn it... therefore it isn't for naught. So who should we seek out? The difference maker is that there are a growing number of people who like Dan, Sam and Ark. The want to teach this stuff and are great at it and they're great people.

You come across as an angry child cause people aren't playing in your sandbox..

Ryan Schoelerman

I Liq Chuan Seattle
https://www.facebook.com/SeattleILC
Do not think or judge. Just observe and feel the way things are.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:28 PM   #179
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
So why is it that you won't meet me in person????
I would love to see what ALWAYS happens. Yet when you find someone like me, who openly states that what you are saying doesn't add up, you stay behind your computer instead of meeting with me publicly so you can show what you claim.
As this debate has gone on, I have gotten a lot of emails. Emails from people like me, who said you did the same thing to them, you made outrageous claims, then wouldn't let them come to your seminars.

If you don't want to meet me at a seminar, I would be happy to meet with you anytime you're in California. I would love to "touch hands" with you. As a professional martial artist shouldn't you be interested in making that happen?? I claim that all the "work" you have done is for not. I guess you could simply "sit behind your computer" and argue with me. Or you could show me, but you'd have to leave the keyboard to do that, Dan...
Chris
If you personalize everything to.....you...it makes it hard to have a meaningful conversation. Come on, man.
A few posts back you stated If I want to validate what I am saying here's my chance...by meeting you. Isn't that overly self-inflated as a value? Is that really an intelligent or fair response?
I have met 1,500 People who were both polite and professional over meeting you. I will also take the 17 Shihan and 6 6th dans and 52 go dans, Daito ryu Kyoju Dairi, Bjj regional and National champs Established fighters and Judo people...on an on. Shouldn't you mention that. I know you know that. Aren't you interested in open and fair discourse?
I don't need your approval for what I and hundreds of others are testifying to and writing about. Sorry, but your opinion has what kind of value in comparison to them? Speaking of which, why is it that you never...ever...mention all those other people who have met me, Sam, Ark or Mike and what they have written?
Do you think so little of them that their opinions have no value to you? For that reason alone I would walk away from meeting you. I met various teachers *precisely* because others were talking about them. I figured, they must know something I didn't.

Try to be fair. Say this to yourself.
I and a few others have made Dan angry or not trust us, so he won't meet us. But he has met over 1,500 people world wide, so I guess he is open.
That's more fair and accurate Chris.
Then, go meet other internal guys. Try to find someone who can actually use it though.
Good luck in your training
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-27-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:42 PM   #180
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Just a suggestion: the fact that you are making this personal is why Dan probably doesn't want to see you. Why does it have to be about Dan? To be fair, he has pointed to the work and that it is not him, but to the work he is pointing to. There are other guys that are doing this besides him. Sam Chin was out there in Oakland I believe in October..you can probably catch him there again. I think some California peeps are trying to get Ark to do a seminar out there. The point is to touch hands with people like this, and to get out there, not make it frigging personal, and avoid making conclusions on the intr4w3b.

Also, Dan, when the heck did you become a professional martial artist?? I didn tknow he was a professional martial artist.
Thank you
All I seem to do...IS TO POINT TO OTHERS, AND TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT THIS WORK IS OLD.
It was the work that produced giants age after age, culture to culture. It is NOT and never WAS about individuals. That is the mistake budo people keep making. Look at the individual and kiss the ring, and not look at the work that MADE them. Sigh!

I was supported by some famous people who agreed to meet me BECAUSE they read aikiweb and e-budo and saw that I ....REFUSED to point to myself, and I acknowledge that this work is old and produced many other peoplewith these skills. So, I am not too worried that a dozen or so readers out of thousands simply cannot process.
Dan
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:54 PM   #181
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

If you want to talk about personal, look at any post where Dan talks to me. You will see him several times in each post making little comments and quips about me.

Here is a quote where Dan says some stuff about my teacher, and my teachers teacher. It doesn't get much more personal then that. These are people I care about, and Dan makes totally unsubstantiated claims.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is in Taiji and Bagua. You keep telling us you learned *internals* from an expert. I had a physical discussion with three experts in their field who knew this. And FWIW, your teacher's teacher (his expert) bounced his own self off of me in an open room in front of his students when he tried to throw me using waza-I felt no internal power.
So Dan, which of my teachers teachers did you "bounce" around? What is his name? I am in his lineage, so I would like to know who it was. There is no need to keep his name secret, so who was it, I can ask him and learn what he has to say in the next few days.

You can't have it both ways. Either you want to have a real discussion here on the internet, which is where you spend lot's of your time. Which is what we are here to do. Or you can get out from behind your computer and meet with me in person.

It is personal, I am from a fighting lineage. I am expected by those who taught me to stand up for myself and my school. Dan, I say you make up stories and are to scared to come out from behind your computer and show me what you claim to know. If you have any martial ability at all this shouldn't bother you, you should be happy to show me my error. Publicly in front of anyone who is interested in seeing what "real IP" looks like.

I've had enough of this.

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Old 11-27-2012, 01:55 PM   #182
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
To have a stab...

Aiki is a unification of center; a grafting of a dominated center onto a dominating center. I am not sure I would use the term "clash" because that implies there is a period of oppositional struggle. There is not. I believe Takeda sensei used to refer to this unification as defeating your opponent in an instant [by glancing at him]. I also believe Ueshiba sensei used a similar reference.

Atari is the point at which centers meet, a confrontation. I like this term better because it leaves out an implied action to follow. This is an older term and I think Endo sensei uses it well; to be fair, several of his students use it also with clarity too, Gleason sensei comes to mind (I think he talks about this topic in one of his books).

So yes, for me aiki has confrontation. Of confronted centers, one will become dominant and others will be dominated. For me, this is what I call kihon - the root of anything we will do in aikido must first begin by unifying and dominating my partner's center. The trick to it is making your center dominate without resorting to "doing" something to your partner.
That part I still disagree on. I get it, I can do it...I don't want it. It makes good "Martial arts" but it's a disaster in a fight.
I aint ever, going to connect to your center. And you're never going to find mine if I can help it.

As I say to people who keep yaking about this "make connect" "center to center" make a fourlegged animal" idea.
"Okay, we are going to make an experiment. You are going to fight.
Lets pretend that the outcome is that if you lose the fight, you lose everythng you own.
Here is Morihei Ueshiba
Your mission is to "Make connect" to his center.

I'm going to go stand in the corner.
So, how's that working out for ya?

Personally I love it that ya''l keep thinking that connecting, center to center is a good thing.
You couldn't convince me to move that way for anything. And honestly once you experience the other way to move, I doubt you would EVER go back.

Aiki and clashing
You may not have to clash doing "Martial arts" You are going to clash when you fight. Anyone who doesn't think so has never been in a fight with someone who actually knows how to fight.
The contact point or points, will be the meeting place.
1. There are reasons that dantian is present at that point.
2. Because it is present the point is supported without localized muscle firing ans weakness
3. Because it is supported aiki can be created with In/yo which can be basic to sophisticated

Now, even if you somewhat suck
There are things you can even do without a developed dantian to pull off aiki to a degree.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-27-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:59 PM   #183
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Waiting...

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Old 11-27-2012, 02:25 PM   #184
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Chris
What in the world are you doing?
This can be handled better.
This is not what Aikiweb is about.
Take this off line, as it is off topic.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-27-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:35 PM   #185
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

It was perfectly on topic when you wanted to bring up the supposed fact that you "bounced" one of my teachers teachers around. Who was he, what what his name. I am from his lineage, I would like to substantiate your claim.

So either you do want to meet with me, to show me my error or not. No more skirting around the issue.

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Old 11-27-2012, 02:48 PM   #186
Krystal Locke
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

A relevant and humorous link...
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/comput...and_magic.html

Yes, the science matters to me, it helps me understand how to do something, much like feeling it helps me understand how to do something. I am looking to bring all my tools to the project. Science is a great and useful tool for me. If someone else cannot put the lesson into scientific terms, I hope they dont mind me doing so myself while I feel what they have...
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:54 PM   #187
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
A relevant and humorous link...
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/comput...and_magic.html

Yes, the science matters to me, it helps me understand how to do something, much like feeling it helps me understand how to do something. I am looking to bring all my tools to the project. Science is a great and useful tool for me. If someone else cannot put the lesson into scientific terms, I hope they dont mind me doing so myself while I feel what they have...
Of those I know, everyone who teaches this hands-on, teaches it logically using mechanics and "feel." That's why no one debates it who has felt it and goes to actually learn it. It's logical, sometimes obvious, but the way your mind controls your body, your movement is different.
Dan
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:03 PM   #188
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

No answer Dan.

Okay, I think we can now all clearly see what your claims amount too.

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Old 11-27-2012, 03:25 PM   #189
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Yes, you're absolutely right, we can "all see clearly now."
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:28 PM   #190
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
It was perfectly on topic when you wanted to bring up the supposed fact that you "bounced" one of my teachers teachers around. Who was he, what what his name. I am from his lineage, I would like to substantiate your claim.

So either you do want to meet with me, to show me my error or not. No more skirting around the issue.
Chris
I have met you teacher, really nice guy and a gentleman.......is a public challenge what he would want you to undertake? The risk to reputations goes many ways. Take this offline and work it......
Gary
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:29 PM   #191
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Good for you, Chris. Now *everyone* knows!
I hope you feel better.
Anything actually on-topic to say?
I'll have about 7,800 opportunities next year to meet people-including many hundreds from here- make friends, train, and...well...be nice.
Good luck in your training.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-27-2012 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:36 PM   #192
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Dan, if my question is off topic, why is it that you brought up my teachers teacher? You chose to do that, what was your point? Who was this man? This was something you said Dan, not me. I just quoted you and asked who it was that you "bounced" around?

I can see you've already gone to work on your spin, I'm sure it's comfortable from behind your keyboard to tell stories. But when questioned, you can't come up with any names or facts. It's all very strange isn't it?

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Old 11-27-2012, 03:47 PM   #193
Travers Hughes
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I love reading threads like this. This thread is all on public record, and a great information source for any poential new student wanting to do a little research on potential training places and teachers / training partners. Based on the "conduct" and communication type in this thread, I found at least one more person I have no desire to train with.
As a wise man once said, good luck in your training.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:50 PM   #194
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I'm glad as well. If you are interested in training with me, I will give you solid skills that you can count on and back up. As my teachers did for me.

If you want to tell stories and skirt the issues you should train with someone else.

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Old 11-27-2012, 03:58 PM   #195
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Folks,

Watch your tone. It's getting rather personal here on both sides of the discussion. I don't want this website being used for personal attacks, so stop it now.

-- Jun

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Old 11-27-2012, 04:06 PM   #196
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Jon Reading wrote:
To have a stab
Aiki is a unification of center; a grafting of a dominated center onto a dominating center. I am not sure I would use the term "clash" because that implies there is a period of oppositional struggle. There is not. I believe Takeda sensei used to refer to this unification as defeating your opponent in an instant [by glancing at him]. I also believe Ueshiba sensei used a similar reference.

Atari is the point at which centers meet, a confrontation. I like this term better because it leaves out an implied action to follow. This is an older term and I think Endo sensei uses it well; to be fair, several of his students use it also with clarity too, Gleason sensei comes to mind (I think he talks about this topic in one of his books).

So yes, for me aiki has confrontation. Of confronted centers, one will become dominant and others will be dominated. For me, this is what I call kihon - the root of anything we will do in aikido must first begin by unifying and dominating my partner's center. The trick to it is making your center dominate without resorting to "doing" something to your partner.

Dan wrote:

That part I still disagree on. I get it, I can do it...I don't want it. It makes good "Martial arts" but it's a disaster in a fight.
I aint ever, going to connect to your center. And you're never going to find mine if I can help it.

As I say to people who keep yaking about this "make connect" "center to center" make a fourlegged animal" idea.
"Okay, we are going to make an experiment. You are going to fight.
Lets pretend that the outcome is that if you lose the fight, you lose everything you own.
Here is Morihei Ueshiba
Your mission is to "Make connect" to his center.

I'm going to go stand in the corner.
So, how's that working out for ya?

Personally I love it that ya''l keep thinking that connecting, center to center is a good thing.
You couldn't convince me to move that way for anything. And honestly once you experience the other way to move, I doubt you would EVER go back.

Aiki and clashing
You may not have to clash doing "Martial arts" You are going to clash when you fight. Anyone who doesn't think so has never been in a fight with someone who actually knows how to fight.
The contact point or points, will be the meeting place.
1. There are reasons that dantian is present at that point.
2. Because it is present the point is supported without localized muscle firing and weakness
3. Because it is supported aiki can be created with In/yo which can be basic to sophisticated

Now, even if you somewhat suck
There are things you can even do without a developed dantian to pull off aiki to a degree.
Dan

**********************************************************

Ah, finally. I've been following this debate with interest, but was sometimes (!) unclear as to what was actually being said. However, the above dialogue with Jon and Dan made it much clearer, for me. Thanks.

What Jon describes is what we (well, me, anyway) try to achieve in Aikido. I understand this. Dan says he means something else. I think I get a faint glimmer of what he means; but, I guess I will have to seek out a qualified IP person to check it out personally. This I will do.

Thanks.....

Last edited by akiy : 11-27-2012 at 04:31 PM. Reason: Removed extraneous quote tag
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:11 PM   #197
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That part I still disagree on. I get it, I can do it...I don't want it. It makes good "Martial arts" but it's a disaster in a fight.
I aint ever, going to connect to your center. And you're never going to find mine if I can help it.

As I say to people who keep yaking about this "make connect" "center to center" make a fourlegged animal" idea.
"Okay, we are going to make an experiment. You are going to fight.
Lets pretend that the outcome is that if you lose the fight, you lose everythng you own.
Here is Morihei Ueshiba
Your mission is to "Make connect" to his center.

I'm going to go stand in the corner.
So, how's that working out for ya?

Personally I love it that ya''l keep thinking that connecting, center to center is a good thing.
You couldn't convince me to move that way for anything. And honestly once you experience the other way to move, I doubt you would EVER go back.

Aiki and clashing
You may not have to clash doing "Martial arts" You are going to clash when you fight. Anyone who doesn't think so has never been in a fight with someone who actually knows how to fight.
The contact point or points, will be the meeting place.
1. There are reasons that dantian is present at that point.
2. Because it is present the point is supported without localized muscle firing ans weakness
3. Because it is supported aiki can be created with In/yo which can be basic to sophisticated

Now, even if you somewhat suck
There are things you can even do without a developed dantian to pull off aiki to a degree.
Dan
You just went above my paygrade. Yes, essentially the guys I am after can simply prevent the connection and we just stand there while I look somewhat stupid. I am in the process of changing my thinking from the "doing to" mentality now that I have felt several people who can just prevent me from affecting them. It's a depressing feeling when you realize your waza is now useless.

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Old 11-27-2012, 04:17 PM   #198
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Sorry. I could not get the multi-quote thing to work for me - like some of my waza........
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:35 PM   #199
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

You have insulted my teacher and my dojo, now you must pay!!?#@?%$

No seriously Chris,
Before we do bad Saturday afternoon kung-fu movie, I am approaching 50 fast and have played every sport under the sun(not professionally of course) but consider myself "athletic" . Considering, I can run circles in the dojo around people half my age. Dont think I can "run" a mile anymore as I have not trained that way in quite a while. So sport specific is important. And besides all the normal physical maladies a 50yo "athlete" can acquire, there is more that I will not acknowledge here. So, my question is....

What do you think 80+ Ueshiba was doing out there on the mat? Just curious, since he couldn't possibly be "athletic" as you mentioned. Were "all" his students being nice and just falling down for the old man?
Were they just fearful of the once legendary power? How was an 83 yo carried on the mat like a saggy old man and transformed into a "ball of iron". Or did the old man know the secrets of the NFL combine before there was a combine?

And the BTW , I just drove for a total of 7 hours to see Dan for 3, so besides no "official martial arts" credits to speak of , I think that gives me some hardcore "belief capital" to spend on this thread. So I would appreciate for you to get out from behind your keyboard and seek out ... probably someone else mentioned like Ark or Sam, because publicly bating Dan is bad idea. Also, I hope you dont think you are attracting quality people to your cause

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:42 PM   #200
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
You just went above my paygrade. Yes, essentially the guys I am after can simply prevent the connection and we just stand there while I look somewhat stupid. I am in the process of changing my thinking from the "doing to" mentality now that I have felt several people who can just prevent me from affecting them. It's a depressing feeling when you realize your waza is now useless.
This is the hardest part to get down because from early on all interaction was from an external perspective to do something to the attacker - with the internal stuff, all your focus is on you, and once that is accomplished, the external to the attacker is taken care of by it self in any numbers of ways -

Greg
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