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Old 11-25-2012, 08:46 PM   #126
Keith Larman
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Fortunately, Chris, you being convinced to your satisfaction via discussion in an on-line forum is not a requirement for something to be the case. I've seen a tremendous amount of explanation here in this thread and in others, but since it's apparently not enough for *your* satisfaction, well, I suppose you're destined to be frustrated.

So here's to wishing you the best of luck until you finally find a way to actually experience it. Since obviously none of us are up to the task of explaining it to your satisfaction. You rather obviously already have some serious opinions about what it's all about based on your other experiences. Must be nice to have such clarity -- I've been trying to find it myself for quite some time now. Unfortunately I've been the idiot who has taken the time to get on the mat with guys who challenged my understanding. I guess that's the secret -- stay behind a computer and demand explanation from those who've actually taken the time to find out for themselves. Then discount their prior experience, knowledge and direct hands-on experience through your filters of experiences (some probably quite good) and lack thereof of experience (of the actual people under discussion). That certainly makes life easier...

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Old 11-25-2012, 10:16 PM   #127
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
How can you possibly know if I am wrong? I don't care about being right, Lorel. But I don't understand how anyone can possible know what I know having never met me.

I am not sure what a circle jerk is but I know that I do like to discuss things about the Aikido I train in with other people. If that seems wrong to you you could stay off those threads.

A discussion is different from an argument.
I don't have 100 percent certainty that what you know is wrong. Besides, like I said, if you are satisfied with your training and your beliefs, go ahead and do it. But when people are suggesting to you that what you are doing is not Ueshiba's aikido (and there was a particular way that he did aikido), then it becomes an issue of truth, of right and wrong. But since you are not interested in "being right" (and this is not even about proving to others that you are right, but more about the pursuit of truth), then you should not care--as much as you dont care about being right--about being wrong or being told that you are wrong.

"If that seems wrong to you you could stay off those threads."

I do stay off those threads. I never commented once on threads where people discuss how they train. I dont even do aikido.

My suggestion will always be:

"It is simple.

If you feel you have the answers, ignore everyone else and train and do your own thing.

If you feel like there is a nagging thing that wants to make you pursue the truth and that what you are doing is true training, stop debating on the internet, and meet people. If you are not impressed or feel that you didn't encounter anything special, move on and resume the training that you were doing. If you felt there was something more superior and special, take on the new training.

Is it really that hard?"

I suggest you ignore other people if you feel they are burdening you with the feel to be right. Train and do your own thing and stop stressing yourself out over this, Mary. Like Dan says "its just budo!!!"

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:04 AM   #128
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I answered -on topic- in a lengthy post a ways back with no response
Dan,
I keep going through that post, but I can't find any answers, just statements. If you would, could you quote where the answer to:

"What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing"

In your post #94 you make more statements about how important duel opposing spirals are, but you don't say what they are, or what forces you are balancing. You say you've explained it before, but you don't explain.

Could you show me the quote where you answer the question? If you don't want to do that could you quickly tell us what a duel opposing spiral is, now?

You do state at length that I should know what you are talking about. But I don't. So I'm asking for clarification now. What do you mean by duel opposing spirals? What are they made up of? Is it an alignment or an energy? What forces are you balancing inside of yourself?

Further, I'm sorry if you feel I put any personal spin on my questions. I'm just trying to understand what it is that you are describing with the words you're using. Could you tell me?

Quote:
Your questioning me-after insisting you mastered what I do in a year-
Dan I have no idea what it is you do, that's what I'm asking. I have done Chinese internal, so if you're doing that, I'm familiar with it, but you use words in ways that I'm not familiar with. So I'm not sure what it is you are doing. This is why I'm asking for clarification.

Quote:
Why would you claim to be an internal practioner and then be asking other internal practioners these things, as if they are unrecognizable concepts AND terminology to you?
I claim to be an internal practitioner because I am. I've studied with a known lineage holder, author, translator and authority in Chinese internal martial arts. But you are correct I don't understand your terminology. You use words differently then I would, could you please explain what you mean by the words you use.

Quote:
I do share what I am doing, Chris.
Great. Could you please explain what makes up the duel opposing spirals? Is it an energy, or an alignment or something else? What is it that you have to balance inside of yourself?

Dan, you do post a lot, but after searching through your posts I only find statements, but no explanations. I'm sorry if you feel I've slighted you, but if you'd like to share what it is you are doing, here is your opportunity-

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Old 11-26-2012, 06:34 AM   #129
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aikido ... is blend, blending blending.
When you understand Aikido as blending: What is blended?
This is a basic exercise in our aikidō. Do you see blendig the way you understand it in this exercise?
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:35 AM   #130
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
There are existing vocabularies for describing "dual opposing spirals," etc. However, different arts may use the same terms to describe processes that aren't quite the same. Some may not be "internal" at all. Confusion ensues.

Even within the category of authetic internal training systems, terminology can be confusing if you try to cross-reference it to the different systems. I am familiar with at least two discrete, genuine internal training methodologies that utilize the same essential body processes for power and "aiki" but which use different training methods to inculcate them and different terminologies to describe them... and some of the terms within each system overlap into the other, but mean somewhat different things to and in those different systems. Again, confusion ensues.

That's one reason why it doesn't pay to talk too much about concepts here. As so many others have said, anyone who wants to understand what the "IP/Aiki" crowd is talking about, should bite the bullet, go out and get his or her hands on one of the known people who trains and teaches those skills. It doesn't matter which methodology you latch onto if it leads to the same summit.
All very true - a good example is the term "double weight" - if you do a little poking around the internet, you will come up with various explanations and some that are exactly opposite of each other - oh, and that opposite has nothing to do with those opposing spirals some are having a hard time understanding

Greg
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:52 AM   #131
phitruong
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
When you understand Aikido as blending: What is blended?
This is a basic exercise in our aikidō. Do you see blendig the way you understand it in this exercise?
hey, i remembered those. did those with Endo sensei along with the pushing his head thingy too. one thing that impressed me about Endo sensei, besides his aikido which is excellent, he would take ukemi for everyone. didn't normally see a japanese shihan did that sort of thing.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:45 AM   #132
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
....but you use words in ways that I'm not familiar with. So I'm not sure what it is you are doing. This is why I'm asking for clarification. I claim to be an internal practitioner because I am. I've studied with a known lineage holder, author, translator and authority in Chinese internal martial arts. But you are correct I don't understand your terminology. You use words differently then I would, could you please explain what you mean by the words you use.
If you want to come to an international board and tell the world that you learned internal power, the *jewel* of the internal arts, in a year from a western guy-that's your choice. There are many, many Chinese internal *martial art* masters, who are good athletes Chris. Some (and if you did juuuust a little research you would find out) were widely known as fighters, who were also widely known for not having internal power. And...they became teachers of westerners Chris. And those westerners became? Fighters.
Many who went to China were taught internal martial arts. Very few -almost no one, were taught internals. I have trained with men who were ICMA practioners who spent many years in China; some were clueless abut what I was doing. others knew precisely what I was teaching from what I wrote on the internet before they met me. One a Grand master, not a lineage holder stated that openly at seminars after following my writing on E-budo and Aikiweb. But you, are at a loss.

I met a fellow once. A very famous AIkido Teacher under Ueshiba. He *learned* Aikido and Mastered it as a bone breaking abuser and I watched him dislocate the elbow of a friend of mine.
I met another Fellow who trained under Ueshiba, He *learned* Aikido and Mastered it. He was soft and flowing and I don't think he was able to break an elbow if his life depended on it.
But here they were. Lineage holders. Certified Masters.
Which of them *Mastered* Aikido, Chris?
More importantly which *knew* Aikido, Chris?
Quote:
I'm sorry if you feel I've slighted you, but if you'd like to share what it is you are doing, here is your opportunity.
*This* is a set-up Chris. Not an opportunity. My opportunites to teach happen when I touch hands with people.
Your words and behavior toward me is spelled out in different forums. Your attitude toward all of us who practice this is known. So, what makes *telling you* what I do, an *opportunity* for me?
I made a lengthy post a ways back answering several questions in one long post. Figure that one out and in a few years you might be able to have a discussion of how to progress with it.

Quote:
What is it that you have to balance inside of yourself?
It is the basis for all ICMA. It is the very beginning of Ueshiba's aikido. He said so. Without it there is no Aikido. There is no internal..... only techniques and principles....you know...like athletic movement.
Any internal guy knows this. Those who only learned the outer forms and never really learned internal power, learned waza and athletics. Thus, they end up thinking that good athletes then know internals too.
What is heaven/earth/man? Six direction training? What is Ueshiba's rowing exercise for? What did he mean by dual opposing spirals?

So here you are. You learned internal power in a year from an expert and now you're an Aikido teacher...and you don't know what Ueshiba was talking about either?
Peace and a safe journey, Chris
Dan
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:26 AM   #133
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Here again, Chris. Somewhat edited

Aiki as a clash of forces
Ueshiba and generations of giants before him focused on power (soft power-not normal power) and solo training to achieve power...for a reason. It was the central pillar of how to make aiki happen. You need a profound "neutral" in order to demonstrate and manipulate force within you, in order to create change in the forces outside of you that are attempting to enter in. The more developed you are, the more those forces are never allowed to enter in and are dealt with by your making change in you on the supported surface. This occurs first by generating power from dantian in opposing forces, and then manipulating them. That is the floating bridge. If and when you encounter someone equal or superior, who might have the capacity to enter you, you then have management within and movement to deflect forces.

Management of forces
Inside of you
Management first being inside yourself by standing. Learning to engage and manage opposing forces inside of yourself. Thus Ueshiba, when asked what is aiki getting down and drawing a circle and stating it was opposing forces inside a circle...inside of you. This goes from simple models to higher level models. All of which are hinged upon In/yo. Without a balance of forces you have athlectic frames and single force vectors; Jujutsu.

Outside effects
Deflection, projection, absorption

Deflection
Deflection to create aiki is not done the way people try to move naturally. Moving *away* from a force vector is just jujutsu. Anyone can do it. Moving in accordance with in/yo means you now have a supported neural tangent point that is supported from dantian -in itself that is created in a balanced state- that now allows you to create a disruption using a balance of in/yo in internal and surface movement, that is all but impossible for them to track. This leaves them continually reacting to your movement and trying to respond to a non sourced change they cannot apply force on. So, in/yo creates a state within you, that makes a continuous flow of tangents outside of you that never allows force on you. Thus your movements make "no force" possible. No internal management of in/yo inside of you, no aiki between you and someone else-just jujutsu movement.

Were one to understand Ueshiba's spiraling movement, one would then see the source of "elbow power" and why the forces from the hand are not the same as the forces from the elbow. This, in turn, also creates aiki and devastating punches-as one. Moreover, it creates aiki on any body surface that is touched without the practitioner changing his essential movement on contact. Of course he can change it at will, but it is important to realize that aiki is being created without his thought being attached to anyone or any force. There is no joining of center to center, or any time gap to make something happen by moving your insides as an after effect of joining. A process, is a process. After effect processes may be okay for dojo waza; they will get you nailed in a fight or killed with weapons. It is better to have a method of movement that is proactive all the time. When one thing moves, everything moves, and that "everything" is sophisticated, and automatic. This is why Ueshiba stated That with aiki, you exert your will on others and make them do what you want. It was never some course, bully boy pushing his weight around idea. It was a dominating, and then peaceful sort of *happening* to those who tried to put force into you. Sort of like being a benevelent 600 lb Gorilla in the room.

Projection
Add to this the ability for explosive force (force that need not cause any harm at all) and you have a nice package that is devastatingly effective. Projection first occurs once again from the management of opposing forces creating a state in your frame and structure. It may expand outward in 360 degrees with thejoining of expanding tissue and the use of bows- corkscrewing or it may be focused to a point, in conjunction with the use of the dantian/mingmen and kua, or it can be applied in a rotating tangent, or it can be applied expanding *around* a contacted point suppressing or dampening all vectored resistance. This gives the person a feeling of being smothered, and also of you supposedly "reading" their responses and being "ahead of them" even though you really haven't dedicated any energy or focus to that model. This can also be a non static ever fluid state. Once again this movement is best when generated first automatically and then with focus.

Absorption
This is the above in an opposite tract. It requires somewhat of a leading aspect toward you that is then deflected off as well. I am not a fane of leading in as much as deflecting off. Absorbing is a neat trick to show someone in a dojo, not a good idea with a high level person.

All of the above has many aspects of additional movement in opening and closing the body, spiral movement through dantian that brings the overall effect *off the charts* in trying to track the many different "aiki's" that are possible in using the body in a myriad of ways to manage force. This is too complicated to cover in written form.

Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me
Aiki and yin/yang. Where is yin and yang?
This missing requirement of in/yo inside of you first, was the source of the damning comment of a Taiji grandmaster who taught for 11 years in Japan (he taught two of Sagawas people) who stated...
"All this talk of aiki. Where is Yin? Where is Yang? How then is there ai-ki? You cannot pretend Dantian. You will be found out!"
Notice his critique was that you must first demonstrate yin and yang in you, and his instant correlation of that to the dantain. Where all is joined and balanced. Oddly, his admonition matches Ueshiba who continually answered question on aiki by first and foremost discussing a balance of forces within himself.
The balance of force cannot be just a circle. That can make you stable and strong, but it is -in a way- a lower aspect of high level work. Since it created power and deflection people can play with it for decades and stop there, and get the job done. But *one point* is really only a beginner step.
A fluid balance of force in spiral energy is far more sophisticated, damaging and deflecting at any point in the body. This is why Ueshiba said the mysteries of aiki are revealed in them.

Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners never address that because they just don't get it, get him, get the history and pedagogy of what their own founder was discussing, all while claiming higher knowledge that is actually nothing more jujutsu principles. So, when you begin a discussion with someone and they have no understanding of what Ueshiba talked about; Six direction forces, aiki being opposing forces within yourself, heaven/earth/man, the mysteries of which are displayed in dual opposing spirals that give birth to Yin and yang, No idea of his exercises such as rowing, and twirling his stick in the air, and what they meant, no idea of what Dantian is, and how to develop it...where do you begin?

Beyond the physical
What is fascinating as well is how this work creates the very foundational spiritual challenge Aikido should be known for. The agonizing amount of solo work involved "eating bitter before you can taste the sweet" becomes a familiar and intimate partner. The grueling crucible of harnessing power, and being able to deliver it, while choosing to hold back is the foundation for spiritual growth in withholding and controlling that power against an opponent.

So first we have mind/body in solo training discipline, then we have it in active involvement with others we can harm.
This is yet another aspect of Aikido that I greatly...greatly...admire. It is hard to withhold your hand from an adversary, but harder still from a junior or someone challenging your skill. Connect with someone you can easily dominate, but holding back while delivering governed force levels either with aiki or with power, to match their level. This requires strictly monitored self-control. That control, changes you.
I now have met so many capable men and women who were drawing to the art for this reason as well. It gives us a lifetime to experience that forging of spirit/mind/body.

Where is power...aiki?
I had a recent encounter with a 90 year old who trained with Tohei and Ueshiba who had strong opinions on aikido's founder having and displaying *POWER* repeatedly but the modern art being absent of it. He was delighted to once again feel Ueshiba's power being taught in the art once again, commensurate with solo training, and using the *power* to make aiki. Power must exist as a support or everything else fails and you cannot manage a balance of force within, or sustained contact points without, in order to create aiki.

That said, it was never the peacnick model of avoiding power and running away from force that was Ueshiba's aiki. His constant admonitions were of possessing power as a killing force and then having to forge ones soul to manage it's use and that practice and hone that control. An old saying goes "If I raise my hand. I withdraw my temper. If i raise my temper, I withdraw my hand."
There is a conundrum to Aikido and really many high level arts, that can feed us for the rest of our lives.

What is happening right now is an evolutionary step that is being forced on the Asian arts. The teachers are going to have to step up and demonstrate skills and then actually teach, or we are going to go somewhere else. No one is going to abandon the Asian teachers though. Just about every martial artist I know will pick an Asian face and established art, nine out of ten times. What we are going to force teachers to do is to start demonstrating a higher level of skill. As the recent Daito ryu shihan stated in his Aikido Journal article "most of the Shihan in the arts are simply not capable of aiki." Of those who are out teaching publicly, they are going to be facing a growing student base that they cannot handle so easily. Eventually the art is going to be known for people practicing with real power and aiki, the Ueshiba way, and those who can't handle them.
I would be happy to revisit that statement ten years from now. I believe we are about to create a whole different landscape.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-26-2012 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:25 AM   #134
Tom Verhoeven
Dojo: Aikido Auvergne Kumano dojo
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
When you understand Aikido as blending: What is blended?
This is a basic exercise in our aikidō. Do you see blendig the way you understand it in this exercise?
Carsten,

Thank you for the link.

Beautiful example of musubi !

If you do not call this blending, than what do you call it?

Clashing?

Tom
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #135
RonRagusa
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
This is a basic exercise in our aikidō. Do you see blendig the way you understand it in this exercise?
Yes.

Ron

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Old 11-26-2012, 09:58 AM   #136
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Here again, Chris. Somewhat edited

Aiki as a clash of forces
Ueshiba and generations of giants before him focused on power (soft power-not normal power) and solo training to achieve power...for a reason. It was the central pillar of how to make aiki happen. You need a profound "neutral" in order to demonstrate and manipulate force within you, in order to create change in the forces outside of you that are attempting to enter in. The more developed you are, the more those forces are never allowed to enter in and are dealt with by your making change in you on the supported surface. This occurs first by generating power from dantian in opposing forces, and then manipulating them. That is the floating bridge. If and when you encounter someone equal or superior, who might have the capacity to enter you, you then have management within and movement to deflect forces.

Management of forces
Inside of you
Management first being inside yourself by standing. Learning to engage and manage opposing forces inside of yourself. Thus Ueshiba, when asked what is aiki getting down and drawing a circle and stating it was opposing forces inside a circle...inside of you. This goes from simple models to higher level models. All of which are hinged upon In/yo. Without a balance of forces you have athlectic frames and single force vectors; Jujutsu.

Outside effects
Deflection, projection, absorption

Deflection
Deflection to create aiki is not done the way people try to move naturally. Moving *away* from a force vector is just jujutsu. Anyone can do it. Moving in accordance with in/yo means you now have a supported neural tangent point that is supported from dantian -in itself that is created in a balanced state- that now allows you to create a disruption using a balance of in/yo in internal and surface movement, that is all but impossible for them to track. This leaves them continually reacting to your movement and trying to respond to a non sourced change they cannot apply force on. So, in/yo creates a state within you, that makes a continuous flow of tangents outside of you that never allows force on you. Thus your movements make "no force" possible. No internal management of in/yo inside of you, no aiki between you and someone else-just jujutsu movement.

Were one to understand Ueshiba's spiraling movement, one would then see the source of "elbow power" and why the forces from the hand are not the same as the forces from the elbow. This, in turn, also creates aiki and devastating punches-as one. Moreover, it creates aiki on any body surface that is touched without the practitioner changing his essential movement on contact. Of course he can change it at will, but it is important to realize that aiki is being created without his thought being attached to anyone or any force. There is no joining of center to center, or any time gap to make something happen by moving your insides as an after effect of joining. A process, is a process. After effect processes may be okay for dojo waza; they will get you nailed in a fight or killed with weapons. It is better to have a method of movement that is proactive all the time. When one thing moves, everything moves, and that "everything" is sophisticated, and automatic. This is why Ueshiba stated That with aiki, you exert your will on others and make them do what you want. It was never some course, bully boy pushing his weight around idea. It was a dominating, and then peaceful sort of *happening* to those who tried to put force into you. Sort of like being a benevelent 600 lb Gorilla in the room.

Projection
Add to this the ability for explosive force (force that need not cause any harm at all) and you have a nice package that is devastatingly effective. Projection first occurs once again from the management of opposing forces creating a state in your frame and structure. It may expand outward in 360 degrees with thejoining of expanding tissue and the use of bows- corkscrewing or it may be focused to a point, in conjunction with the use of the dantian/mingmen and kua, or it can be applied in a rotating tangent, or it can be applied expanding *around* a contacted point suppressing or dampening all vectored resistance. This gives the person a feeling of being smothered, and also of you supposedly "reading" their responses and being "ahead of them" even though you really haven't dedicated any energy or focus to that model. This can also be a non static ever fluid state. Once again this movement is best when generated first automatically and then with focus.

Absorption
This is the above in an opposite tract. It requires somewhat of a leading aspect toward you that is then deflected off as well. I am not a fane of leading in as much as deflecting off. Absorbing is a neat trick to show someone in a dojo, not a good idea with a high level person.

All of the above has many aspects of additional movement in opening and closing the body, spiral movement through dantian that brings the overall effect *off the charts* in trying to track the many different "aiki's" that are possible in using the body in a myriad of ways to manage force. This is too complicated to cover in written form.

Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me
Aiki and yin/yang. Where is yin and yang?
This missing requirement of in/yo inside of you first, was the source of the damning comment of a Taiji grandmaster who taught for 11 years in Japan (he taught two of Sagawas people) who stated...
"All this talk of aiki. Where is Yin? Where is Yang? How then is there ai-ki? You cannot pretend Dantian. You will be found out!"
Notice his critique was that you must first demonstrate yin and yang in you, and his instant correlation of that to the dantain. Where all is joined and balanced. Oddly, his admonition matches Ueshiba who continually answered question on aiki by first and foremost discussing a balance of forces within himself.
The balance of force cannot be just a circle. That can make you stable and strong, but it is -in a way- a lower aspect of high level work. Since it created power and deflection people can play with it for decades and stop there, and get the job done. But *one point* is really only a beginner step.
A fluid balance of force in spiral energy is far more sophisticated, damaging and deflecting at any point in the body. This is why Ueshiba said the mysteries of aiki are revealed in them.

Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners never address that because they just don't get it, get him, get the history and pedagogy of what their own founder was discussing, all while claiming higher knowledge that is actually nothing more jujutsu principles. So, when you begin a discussion with someone and they have no understanding of what Ueshiba talked about; Six direction forces, aiki being opposing forces within yourself, heaven/earth/man, the mysteries of which are displayed in dual opposing spirals that give birth to Yin and yang, No idea of his exercises such as rowing, and twirling his stick in the air, and what they meant, no idea of what Dantian is, and how to develop it...where do you begin?

Beyond the physical
What is fascinating as well is how this work creates the very foundational spiritual challenge Aikido should be known for. The agonizing amount of solo work involved "eating bitter before you can taste the sweet" becomes a familiar and intimate partner. The grueling crucible of harnessing power, and being able to deliver it, while choosing to hold back is the foundation for spiritual growth in withholding and controlling that power against an opponent.

So first we have mind/body in solo training discipline, then we have it in active involvement with others we can harm.
This is yet another aspect of Aikido that I greatly...greatly...admire. It is hard to withhold your hand from an adversary, but harder still from a junior or someone challenging your skill. Connect with someone you can easily dominate, but holding back while delivering governed force levels either with aiki or with power, to match their level. This requires strictly monitored self-control. That control, changes you.
I now have met so many capable men and women who were drawing to the art for this reason as well. It gives us a lifetime to experience that forging of spirit/mind/body.

Where is power...aiki?
I had a recent encounter with a 90 year old who trained with Tohei and Ueshiba who had strong opinions on aikido's founder having and displaying *POWER* repeatedly but the modern art being absent of it. He was delighted to once again feel Ueshiba's power being taught in the art once again, commensurate with solo training, and using the *power* to make aiki. Power must exist as a support or everything else fails and you cannot manage a balance of force within, or sustained contact points without, in order to create aiki.

That said, it was never the peacnick model of avoiding power and running away from force that was Ueshiba's aiki. His constant admonitions were of possessing power as a killing force and then having to forge ones soul to manage it's use and that practice and hone that control. An old saying goes "If I raise my hand. I withdraw my temper. If i raise my temper, I withdraw my hand."
There is a conundrum to Aikido and really many high level arts, that can feed us for the rest of our lives.

What is happening right now is an evolutionary step that is being forced on the Asian arts. The teachers are going to have to step up and demonstrate skills and then actually teach, or we are going to go somewhere else. No one is going to abandon the Asian teachers though. Just about every martial artist I know will pick an Asian face and established art, nine out of ten times. What we are going to force teachers to do is to start demonstrating a higher level of skill. As the recent Daito ryu shihan stated in his Aikido Journal article "most of the Shihan in the arts are simply not capable of aiki." Of those who are out teaching publicly, they are going to be facing a growing student base that they cannot handle so easily. Eventually the art is going to be known for people practicing with real power and aiki, the Ueshiba way, and those who can't handle them.
I would be happy to revisit that statement ten years from now. I believe we are about to create a whole different landscape.
Dan
Absolutely great stuff that really lays out a good outline of what you are doing. Personally, I think this summary outline is more important to those already training this stuff because they are familiar with the terms you are using - however, I am afraid it will just lead to more questions from those without a true foot in the door with this stuff - but be that as it may, it should still serve as a good introduction for those that have a sincere interest in knowing more and motivating them to go out and get some hands on time for the answers to their questions.

Greg
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:57 AM   #137
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Here again, Chris. Somewhat edited

Dan
hey, dan can be taught! the copy-n-paste worked good, right? you got to move with the technology. now if i can figure out how to outsmart my smart phone, then it would be great!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:44 PM   #138
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Personally, I think this post is going to be way to long, but I see no way around it.

Here is what you said Dan.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Here again, Chris. Somewhat edited

Aiki as a clash of forces
Ueshiba and generations of giants before him focused on power (soft power-not normal power) and solo training to achieve power...for a reason. It was the central pillar of how to make aiki happen. You need a profound "neutral" in order to demonstrate and manipulate force within you, in order to create change in the forces outside of you that are attempting to enter in.
Here we have an opening statement. from it we learn that you believe Ueshiba was focused on power. We also know that you believe it to be a "soft-not normal" power. We also know that you believe much of this power is derived from solo training and that this power is a "central pillar" to the "aiki" phenomenon. In order to access this power, you say there must be a "neutral".

This is the opening statement, so this is sort of the place for talk like this. However it begs us to ask these questions:

1. What kind of power is it that you believe Ueshiba was focused on? What is "soft-not normal" about this power.

2. What kind of "solo training" are you speaking of, and why is it important?

3. What is this "neutral that you're talking about?

Quote:
The more developed you are, the more those forces are never allowed to enter in and are dealt with by your making change in you on the supported surface. This occurs first by generating power from dantian in opposing forces, and then manipulating them. That is the floating bridge. If and when you encounter someone equal or superior, who might have the capacity to enter you, you then have management within and movement to deflect forces.
I'm not sure, but I believe you are finishing up your opening statement here. Here you tell us that you believe the more developed you are the more some kind of force cannot "enter in" because you change your "supported surface". You go on to say that change in your "supported surface" is done by generating power from your "dantian", this force comes in the form of "opposing forces".

This makes one ask:

1.What kind of force is going to "enter in", and where is the force "entering"?

2. What do you mean by supported surface, and what does "changing" that surface mean?

3. What do you mean when you use the word "dantian"?

4. What do you mean by "opposing forces"?

Quote:
Management of forces
Inside of you
Management first being inside yourself by standing. Learning to engage and manage opposing forces inside of yourself. Thus Ueshiba, when asked what is aiki getting down and drawing a circle and stating it was opposing forces inside a circle...inside of you. This goes from simple models to higher level models. All of which are hinged upon In/yo. Without a balance of forces you have athlectic frames and single force vectors; Jujutsu.

Outside effects
Deflection, projection, absorption
Here is where the form of writing you choose suggests you are making an explanation. You state that you must "stand" and learn how to "manage opposing forces inside of yourself". Then you use Ueshiba's name, and say that he drew a circle and said that was opposing forces. Then you say that there are different models of this all relating to In/yo. With out balance of force you have athletics and "single force vectors" and "Jujutsu".

This is just another statement and still makes one ask the questions:

1. What are teh forces you are managing "inside yourself"?

2. What are these other models that you speak of, how do they relate to "In/yo"?

3. What "forces" are you "balancing" and why does lack of ability to "balance" them create athletics and Jujitsu?

Quote:
Deflection
Deflection to create aiki is not done the way people try to move naturally. Moving *away* from a force vector is just jujutsu. Anyone can do it. Moving in accordance with in/yo means you now have a supported neural tangent point that is supported from dantian -in itself that is created in a balanced state- that now allows you to create a disruption using a balance of in/yo in internal and surface movement, that is all but impossible for them to track. This leaves them continually reacting to your movement and trying to respond to a non sourced change they cannot apply force on. So, in/yo creates a state within you, that makes a continuous flow of tangents outside of you that never allows force on you. Thus your movements make "no force" possible. No internal management of in/yo inside of you, no aiki between you and someone else-just jujutsu movement.
Here you say that "deflection" can create "aiki", but cannot be done with natural movement. The un-natural movement you suggest is done by creating a "supported neural tangent point" that is supported by the "dantian". This creates a balanced state. You state that "in/yo" creates a state within you that makes a "continuous flow of tangents outside of you, that never allows force on you." Then you say without internal management of "in/yo" inside of you there is no "aiki".

This is just a very long an deceptive statement. I use the word deceptive because the allusion you are using with your chose of writing form suggests explanation, yet there is none. Simply more statements that leave us asking basically the same questions we've had since to opening statement.

We still don't-
1. Know what you mean by force.

2. Know what you mean by "dantian".

You've also given us some new questions to ask here:

1. What is "supported neural tangent point"?

2. What do you mean by, "continuous flow of tangents outside of you" and how does that, "never allows force on you." and what kind of "force" isn't it allowing?

Quote:
Were one to understand Ueshiba's spiraling movement, one would then see the source of "elbow power" and why the forces from the hand are not the same as the forces from the elbow. This, in turn, also creates aiki and devastating punches-as one. Moreover, it creates aiki on any body surface that is touched without the practitioner changing his essential movement on contact. Of course he can change it at will, but it is important to realize that aiki is being created without his thought being attached to anyone or any force. There is no joining of center to center, or any time gap to make something happen by moving your insides as an after effect of joining. A process, is a process. After effect processes may be okay for dojo waza; they will get you nailed in a fight or killed with weapons. It is better to have a method of movement that is proactive all the time. When one thing moves, everything moves, and that "everything" is sophisticated, and automatic. This is why Ueshiba stated That with aiki, you exert your will on others and make them do what you want. It was never some course, bully boy pushing his weight around idea. It was a dominating, and then peaceful sort of *happening* to those who tried to put force into you. Sort of like being a benevelent 600 lb Gorilla in the room.
I'm not going to attempt a summery here, because this is simply one large statement. You are mostly expressing that you feel the kind of power you get from what you're doing is very "devastating" and that it makes you like a "benevolent 600 lb Gorilla".

Quote:
Projection
Add to this the ability for explosive force (force that need not cause any harm at all) and you have a nice package that is devastatingly effective. Projection first occurs once again from the management of opposing forces creating a state in your frame and structure. It may expand outward in 360 degrees with thejoining of expanding tissue and the use of bows- corkscrewing or it may be focused to a point, in conjunction with the use of the dantian/mingmen and kua, or it can be applied in a rotating tangent, or it can be applied expanding *around* a contacted point suppressing or dampening all vectored resistance. This gives the person a feeling of being smothered, and also of you supposedly "reading" their responses and being "ahead of them" even though you really haven't dedicated any energy or focus to that model. This can also be a non static ever fluid state. Once again this movement is best when generated first automatically and then with focus.
Here again, you make a several statements. Not answering any of our previous questions. You do use some new terms, making us wonder:

1. What do you mean when you say "expanding tissure"?

2. What do you mean when you use the words "dantian/mingmen", and "kua", applied in a "rotating tangent"?

Quote:
Absorption
This is the above in an opposite tract. It requires somewhat of a leading aspect toward you that is then deflected off as well. I am not a fane of leading in as much as deflecting off. Absorbing is a neat trick to show someone in a dojo, not a good idea with a high level person.

All of the above has many aspects of additional movement in opening and closing the body, spiral movement through dantian that brings the overall effect *off the charts* in trying to track the many different "aiki's" that are possible in using the body in a myriad of ways to manage force. This is too complicated to cover in written form.
Again more statements.

Quote:
Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me
Aiki and yin/yang. Where is yin and yang?
This missing requirement of in/yo inside of you first, was the source of the damning comment of a Taiji grandmaster who taught for 11 years in Japan (he taught two of Sagawas people) who stated...
"All this talk of aiki. Where is Yin? Where is Yang? How then is there ai-ki? You cannot pretend Dantian. You will be found out!"
Notice his critique was that you must first demonstrate yin and yang in you, and his instant correlation of that to the dantain. Where all is joined and balanced. Oddly, his admonition matches Ueshiba who continually answered question on aiki by first and foremost discussing a balance of forces within himself.
Here is what I assume is an unsighted quote. And some more statements.

We still don't know what the duel opposing spirals are. What they are made of. Where or what they are spiraling on/in/around. What forces it is that you are balancing "inside of yourself".

Quote:
The balance of force cannot be just a circle. That can make you stable and strong, but it is -in a way- a lower aspect of high level work.

Since it created power and deflection people can play with it for decades and stop there, and get the job done. But *one point* is really only a beginner step.
A fluid balance of force in spiral energy is far more sophisticated, damaging and deflecting at any point in the body. This is why Ueshiba said the mysteries of aiki are revealed in them.
More statements, and more aggrandizement.

Quote:
Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners never address that because they just don't get it, get him, get the history and pedagogy of what their own founder was discussing, all while claiming higher knowledge that is actually nothing more jujutsu principles. So, when you begin a discussion with someone and they have no understanding of what Ueshiba talked about; Six direction forces, aiki being opposing forces within yourself, heaven/earth/man, the mysteries of which are displayed in dual opposing spirals that give birth to Yin and yang, No idea of his exercises such as rowing, and twirling his stick in the air, and what they meant, no idea of what Dantian is, and how to develop it...where do you begin?
More statements, aggrandizement and more words used that we don't share common understanding of.

Quote:

Beyond the physical
What is fascinating as well is how this work creates the very foundational spiritual challenge Aikido should be known for. The agonizing amount of solo work involved "eating bitter before you can taste the sweet" becomes a familiar and intimate partner. The grueling crucible of harnessing power, and being able to deliver it, while choosing to hold back is the foundation for spiritual growth in withholding and controlling that power against an opponent.
Aggrandizement.

Quote:
So first we have mind/body in solo training discipline, then we have it in active involvement with others we can harm.
This is yet another aspect of Aikido that I greatly...greatly...admire. It is hard to withhold your hand from an adversary, but harder still from a junior or someone challenging your skill. Connect with someone you can easily dominate, but holding back while delivering governed force levels either with aiki or with power, to match their level. This requires strictly monitored self-control. That control, changes you.
I now have met so many capable men and women who were drawing to the art for this reason as well. It gives us a lifetime to experience that forging of spirit/mind/body.

Where is power...aiki?
I had a recent encounter with a 90 year old who trained with Tohei and Ueshiba who had strong opinions on aikido's founder having and displaying *POWER* repeatedly but the modern art being absent of it. He was delighted to once again feel Ueshiba's power being taught in the art once again, commensurate with solo training, and using the *power* to make aiki. Power must exist as a support or everything else fails and you cannot manage a balance of force within, or sustained contact points without, in order to create aiki.

That said, it was never the peacnick model of avoiding power and running away from force that was Ueshiba's aiki. His constant admonitions were of possessing power as a killing force and then having to forge ones soul to manage it's use and that practice and hone that control. An old saying goes "If I raise my hand. I withdraw my temper. If i raise my temper, I withdraw my hand."
There is a conundrum to Aikido and really many high level arts, that can feed us for the rest of our lives.

What is happening right now is an evolutionary step that is being forced on the Asian arts. The teachers are going to have to step up and demonstrate skills and then actually teach, or we are going to go somewhere else. No one is going to abandon the Asian teachers though. Just about every martial artist I know will pick an Asian face and established art, nine out of ten times. What we are going to force teachers to do is to start demonstrating a higher level of skill. As the recent Daito ryu shihan stated in his Aikido Journal article "most of the Shihan in the arts are simply not capable of aiki." Of those who are out teaching publicly, they are going to be facing a growing student base that they cannot handle so easily. Eventually the art is going to be known for people practicing with real power and aiki, the Ueshiba way, and those who can't handle them.
I would be happy to revisit that statement ten years from now. I believe we are about to create a whole different landscape.
Dan
I can't really break this one up very well. It's more statements and aggrandizement. There are also several allusions to a self-belief that you know what Ueshiba and other great martial artists were saying.

That took some time and space. But now I can be 100% certain that you haven't answered my original question:

"What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing?"

You did make lot's of statements, allusions, unsighted quotes and references, you also did lot's of aggrandizing for what you believe. But you didn't explain one thing. You most certainly didn't andwer my questions:

""What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing?"

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Old 11-26-2012, 12:58 PM   #139
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
That took some time and space. But now I can be 100% certain that you haven't answered my original question:

"What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing?"

You did make lot's of statements, allusions, unsighted quotes and references, you also did lot's of aggrandizing for what you believe. But you didn't explain one thing. You most certainly didn't andwer my questions:

""What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing?"
You sound like you have a hidden agenda of trying to get information for someone else. Not sure if that's what is happening, but it certainly seems that way. I would want to know what your motives are for focusing in on in/yo and what the forces are. Of all things, you keep coming back to that, yet you don't understand a lot of the other stuff. You act like you don't know mingmen, dantien, forces, etc. when that's pretty much chinese internals. It's been said that in/yo are the Japanese terms for yin/yang, which, again, are pretty much all throughout Chinese internals. Yet you keep coming back to in/yo and forces. Why? Are you trying to get answers for someone else? If not, what relevence do they have to you over and above mingmen, dantien, etc which you ignore?
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:19 PM   #140
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
My advise to you, Chris, is to go out and get lucky. Then come back here with that smile on your face and we can continue the conversation. Any other action on your part can only mean two things: 1) you really are so dense that you just cannot hear what people are saying to you, or; 2) you really are a sophisticated troll. If the former, get some therapy; if the the latter, well, the only thing that comes to mind is from W.C Fields:
"Go away kid, ya bother me"


Your choice - and good luck

Greg
After seeing where this thread is going, I think I have to rethink my previous post above:

I am now firmly convinced that there is a number 3 to what is stated above, and that is both 1 and 2 are true!

At this point I would like to exist here with a couple words from a truly wise character: "What a Maroon" - Bugs Bunny

Greg
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:45 PM   #141
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Dear Chris

From what I see of your profile, you're an aikido teacher with good lineage. Since this kind of conversation permeates everything on these forums now, why don't you just go and check these guys out?

Regards

Carl
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:46 PM   #142
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You sound like you have a hidden agenda of trying to get information for someone else. Not sure if that's what is happening, but it certainly seems that way. I would want to know what your motives are for focusing in on in/yo and what the forces are. Of all things, you keep coming back to that, yet you don't understand a lot of the other stuff. You act like you don't know mingmen, dantien, forces, etc. when that's pretty much chinese internals. It's been said that in/yo are the Japanese terms for yin/yang, which, again, are pretty much all throughout Chinese internals. Yet you keep coming back to in/yo and forces. Why? Are you trying to get answers for someone else? If not, what relevence do they have to you over and above mingmen, dantien, etc which you ignore?
Hey Mark,

When trying to solve a problem it's good to get clarification on each point. I feel like most of what Dan is saying revolves around the duel opposing spirals, so that's the first point I would like to understand better. I'm not sure why it's so hard to answer that, or even make an attempt to answer. I would love to move on.

I know how I would use the words related to Chinese internal, I don't know how Dan is using them. If we are going to have a discussion, we'll have to have a common understanding of the phenomenon the words are describing.

If you'd like to know how I use a word, just ask. I bet I can answer in a paragraph or less. If you need further clarification I'll keep trying.

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Old 11-26-2012, 01:48 PM   #143
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Dear Chris

From what I see of your profile, you're an aikido teacher with good lineage. Since this kind of conversation permeates everything on these forums now, why don't you just go and check these guys out?

Regards

Carl
Hey Carl,

I'm on it. Besides asking Dan if I can come to one of his seminars, I've got other things planned for 2013, more on that to come.

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Old 11-26-2012, 02:12 PM   #144
Mert Gambito
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I can understand how someone who has dedicated himself to studying aikido and ICMA for a long period of time can conclude that he understands the essentials of aiki / neigong, and raise a furrowed brow toward someone who's insisting there's something measurably profound outside of that understanding.

For what it's worth, I've lived in L.A. and Hawaii, where there are many flavors of ICMA being taught. Interestingly, I've met ICMA sifu who acknowledge that they: a) have wonderful form, balance and technique, but lack the IP/IS they've felt from a select few sifu who can adequately manifest and demonstrate it, and b) during part of the week discretely seek out those sifu with real IP/IS, within their art's lineage or outside of it, while continuing to teach -- as an ICMA expert -- the rest of the week, hoping in due time they'll grow into the reputations they've established. . . .

Quote:
ChrisHein wrote:
What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing?
Hopefully doom-sayers' interpretations of the Mayan calendar are wrong; and if so, good news! I'm pretty sure, because of the acquaintances you've developed here, and perhaps in the real world with folks who can manifest these things, or can introduce you to those who can, that you will inevitably get your answers. Acknowledging that too much gets lost in the black-and-white nature of internet discussions, when that day happens, I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised at the logical connection and significance between what you already understand and what you will experience. Until that day happens, it's just not worth trying to debate or intellectually dissect from a distance.

Is this water or vodka?



No way to know without tasting it.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:17 PM   #145
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
... what do you call it?
Clashing?
It is called atari 当たり.

The word is connected to the verb ataru 当たる.
Which indeed can mean to hit, to meet, to collide, to touch, to clash.
Compare atemi 当て身.

You move the partner using "the point at which the ki collides". (see 0:40)
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:58 PM   #146
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Carsten M�llering wrote: View Post
It is called atari Åö¤æ¤ź.

The word is connected to the verb ataru Åö¤æ¤ė.
Which indeed can mean to hit, to meet, to collide, to touch, to clash.
Compare atemi Åö¤ĘæČ.

You move the partner using "the point at which the ki collides". (see 0:40)
I understand the meaning of atari.

Just like I understand the meaning of musubi.

I am trying to figure out whether you think this is something specific for Aikido or for a specific style of Aikido or for Endo shihan, whether or not there is a difference for you between musubi and "blending". Your comment to Mary Eastland's post suggests that you have a different view on this, yet you do not explain the counterargument. The video itself does not help to clarify the counter argument. Perhaps you care to elaborate?

Tom

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Old 11-26-2012, 03:34 PM   #147
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
I can understand how someone who has dedicated himself to studying aikido and ICMA for a long period of time can conclude that he understands the essentials of aiki / neigong, and raise a furrowed brow toward someone who's insisting there's something measurably profound outside of that understanding.

For what it's worth, I've lived in L.A. and Hawaii, where there are many flavors of ICMA being taught. Interestingly, I've met ICMA sifu who acknowledge that they: a) have wonderful form, balance and technique, but lack the IP/IS they've felt from a select few sifu who can adequately manifest and demonstrate it, and b) during part of the week discretely seek out those sifu with real IP/IS, within their art's lineage or outside of it, while continuing to teach -- as an ICMA expert -- the rest of the week, hoping in due time they'll grow into the reputations they've established. . . .

Hopefully doom-sayers' interpretations of the Mayan calendar are wrong; and if so, good news! I'm pretty sure, because of the acquaintances you've developed here, and perhaps in the real world with folks who can manifest these things, or can introduce you to those who can, that you will inevitably get your answers. Acknowledging that too much gets lost in the black-and-white nature of internet discussions, when that day happens, I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised at the logical connection and significance between what you already understand and what you will experience. Until that day happens, it's just not worth trying to debate or intellectually dissect from a distance.

Quote:
Is this water or vodka?



No way to know without tasting it
.
I do not mind tasting the water, but I would not taste the vodka. There must be other ways to find out if it is water or vodka. Smelling comes to mind. More to the point, there are scientific methods to establish whether or not it is water or vodka.
The question than is; is there a scientific way to describe IP/IS ?

Your example of the glas of water brings the famous painting of Magritte to mind; The painting shows a pipe, but it tells us at the same time that it is not a pipe.
So how would you prove that this is indeed a pipe or not? Through experience?

Tom
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:11 PM   #148
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
When you understand Aikido as blending: What is blended?
This is a basic exercise in our aikidō. Do you see blendig the way you understand it in this exercise?
Yes...and thank you. That was beautiful.

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Old 11-26-2012, 04:12 PM   #149
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
It is called atari 当たり.

The word is connected to the verb ataru 当たる.
Which indeed can mean to hit, to meet, to collide, to touch, to clash.
Compare atemi 当て身.

You move the partner using "the point at which the ki collides". (see 0:40)
He may have said that but it is not what I saw. I saw no clashing only blending and redirection.

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Old 11-26-2012, 04:16 PM   #150
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
It is called atari 当たり.

The word is connected to the verb ataru 当たる.
Which indeed can mean to hit, to meet, to collide, to touch, to clash.
Compare atemi 当て身.

You move the partner using "the point at which the ki collides". (see 0:40)
I see blending and redirection. I would have to feel it to see if it indeed collides. It may just be another use of the word. I see no clash.

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