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Old 11-24-2012, 07:33 AM   #101
gregstec
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Walter Oude Wesselink wrote: View Post
Great writing, Dan.

Thanks.
Yes, I agree - one of the best pieces of his writing that really bring together in one place the core of what we are doing; you really cannot explain anymore without a hands on exchange - he even did a good job with his spelling, for change

Greg
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:35 AM   #102
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Aiki may be a clash of forces but Aikido as I practice it is not. Aikido (and this thread is up in the Aikido section not down in the other arts)...is blend, blending blending. No opposition. Especially irimi is blending...that is where the real thing happens when addressed by uke with a strong attack and commited following.
Aikido is never a clash when done correctly...if a clash happens timing is wong, nage is using their head instead of center and more training is needed as always.

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Old 11-24-2012, 09:06 AM   #103
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aiki may be a clash of forces but Aikido as I practice it is not. Aikido (and this thread is up in the Aikido section not down in the other arts)...is blend, blending blending. No opposition. Especially irimi is blending...that is where the real thing happens when addressed by uke with a strong attack and commited following.
Aikido is never a clash when done correctly...if a clash happens timing is wong, nage is using their head instead of center and more training is needed as always.
Well you are simply wrong Mary. You don't understand what Ueshiba was talking about and his correct use of an older model.
1. What we are talking about-the use of power- is ...to blend and be soft.
2. How he blended required support in the body in order to make in/yo.
and?
He stated that..over and over and over and over.

Interesting enough I spent -yet another weekend- with someone who trained with Tohei and Ueshiba. What did he talk about?
Their power !!
What have others who actually trained with Ueshiba I have met talked about?
His power!!

The fact that most people don't get it in Aikido and they think we are talking about muscle and athletic muscle power is quite evident in the modern Shihans and the way they move. It doesn't mean however that they are right. And that...is why everybody keeps failing when they meet someone who does get what ueshiba was talking about.
It is all about blending, Mary. Not just the way most do it. They simply do not understand in/yo.
Oops...he said that as well.
Dan
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:27 AM   #104
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

It seems like even though you say I am simply wrong you agree with all that I say.
I hope you had a nice, peaceful Thanksgiving.

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Old 11-24-2012, 01:13 PM   #105
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
It seems like even though you say I am simply wrong you agree with all that I say.
I hope you had a nice, peaceful Thanksgiving.
That's because over and over you argue against ...the use of power....to make aiki. You're a Tohei lineage student, and his model begins with the development of power, just like Ueshiba.
Dan
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:33 PM   #106
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hey Dan,
I've read your posts twice now. I still haven't seen an answer to my question.

"What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing."

Are you not interested in answering this question? If not that's fine, but I feel like you keep responding to it, but not actually answering it.

I'm still not sure what the "duel opposing spirals are". Are they an alignment? Is it an energy? You have to understand the words you're using aren't the thing that they describe, they are simply words. You have your own vocabulary for what you do, if you want anyone to understand what it is you are doing, you'll have to explain what it is that you mean by the words you use.

Balancing in/yo inside of yourself, doesn't mean anything to anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated into your way of talking. So could you please explain what it is that you mean by this? If you don't want to talk to anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated, then why do you post these things publicly- no one else knows what you are talking about.

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Old 11-24-2012, 02:44 PM   #107
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That's because over and over you argue against ...the use of power....to make aiki. You're a Tohei lineage student, and his model begins with the development of power, just like Ueshiba.
Dan
I don't recall ever saying anything of the sort. I am not interested in power over...I am interested in power to lead, blend, and connect. One needs to have power to do this effectively.
Mary

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 11-24-2012 at 02:44 PM. Reason: spelling my name right ;o)

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Old 11-24-2012, 04:49 PM   #108
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hi Chris
I guess you have not look into the basic theory of internal.
Balance of yin and yang is what they talk about in taiji and aiki
Dan did not make it up. It is like I say alot these days,you need to
get out more.

stan
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:33 PM   #109
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I'm asking Dan to state what he means by this. What I mean/understand/know is not of consequence.

This seems to be a problem I see again and again. If you want someone to understand what you are talking about, you should attempt to clarify for them what you mean. It's a very bad practice, in discussion, to assume someone knows something that might be complex, specialized or specific. It is an even worse practice, when asked to clarify, to simply state "you should already know".

How would we ever communicate with each other if we always approached communication in this way? People use words many different ways. The word is not the phenomenon, it only describes the phenomenon, I'm asking for clarification on how Dan is using his words.

If he doesn't what to answer, just say so. But again, why post publicly about it if you don't actually want to talk about it? I see these same words/phrases over and over, but no one is saying what they are suppose to mean.

"Duel opposing spirals", what does that mean?

What forces are in opposition?

What makes this force?

What are these forces spiraling in/on/around?

How does this phenomenon (duel opposing spirals) make you... Actually I'm not ever sure what they are suppose to make you, stronger, faster, more stable, I'm not sure other then "more powerful" somehow. What do you mean by "powerful"

This is really open to interpretation, how can we talk about something with this level of vagueness and ambiguity? It seems no one wants to explain, just keep stating the same words and phrases over and over. It's very curious.

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Old 11-24-2012, 06:18 PM   #110
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

"You must realize this!
Aiki cannot be captured with the brush
Nor can it be expressed with the mouth
And so it is that one must proceed
to realization"
Ueshiba Sensei

Enjoy and Take Care,

ChrisW

PS Always train in a vibrant and joyful manner...!!! :0)
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:43 AM   #111
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

It is simple.

If you feel you have the answers, ignore everyone else and train and do your own thing.

If you feel like there is a nagging thing that wants to make you pursue the truth and that what you are doing is true training, stop debating on the internet, and meet people. If you are not impressed or feel that you didn't encounter anything special, move on and resume the training that you were doing. If you felt there was something more superior and special, take on the new training.

Is it really that hard?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:59 AM   #112
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Good question, Lorel. Is yours the only answer?

Here is another question: Can we talk about our own path without being told we are simply wrong by someone who has never met us?

AikiWeb to me seems to be about discussion. I like to discuss. I would not say you are wrong and I am right. I like to hear about other peoples experiences. Can that be okay too?

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Old 11-25-2012, 12:15 PM   #113
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Good question, Lorel. Is yours the only answer?

Here is another question: Can we talk about our own path without being told we are simply wrong by someone who has never met us?

AikiWeb to me seems to be about discussion. I like to discuss. I would not say you are wrong and I am right. I like to hear about other peoples experiences. Can that be okay too?
You can, and that's a good venue for a blog, which isn't interactive.

Participating in a discussion opens yourself to the possibility that people will disagree with whatever you happen to be saying - otherwise it's just a mutual agreement party where people secretly disagree behind your back. I prefer the open disagreements.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-25-2012, 12:31 PM   #114
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Good question, Lorel. Is yours the only answer?

Here is another question: Can we talk about our own path without being told we are simply wrong by someone who has never met us?

AikiWeb to me seems to be about discussion. I like to discuss. I would not say you are wrong and I am right. I like to hear about other peoples experiences. Can that be okay too?
Mary, if we were to be honest, everyone would admit that their worldview is the correct one. This is a default for all human beings. Nobody lives in this world thinking that they have the wrong believes. I would love to meet that person that does.

It takes a much different kind of character though to be open to the fact that their worldview might be wrong even if all humans by nature believe what they believe is true. This kind of person is a "seeker", and tests the beliefs against the backdrop of an indiscriminate, sometimes brutal, but always truthful reality. To some people, reality is a menacing threat, a curmudgeon that wants to destroy the beliefs that people have cherished and have depended on for their own sense of comfort, their purpose in life, their very identity. But to others, reality is a brutally honest friend that rewards seekers with truth. I'm convinced that reality is the latter, and it is absolutely thrilling and freeing to embrace reality in that way...cause either way, even if your beliefs burn or stand, the truth will stand.

Why does it bother you that some noone is telling you that what you have been doing is wrong? If you honestly truly believe that what you are doing is true and truly convinced that what you are doing is true, then what others have to say should not bother you at all or it ought not to bother you. But if there is something nagging at you--why do you choose to ignore it? What is there to lose by running head first into reality? If what you believe is true, then encountering reality will be a joyful discovery where you see that what you did was correct all along. If you what you don't believe is true, then encountering reality in that state will also be joyful, for the reason that your delusions are getting burned and you will no longer be trapped by them. Seriously, what do you have to lose?

If you are not interested in truth, then what is the point of discussion besides having a feel good, circle jerk?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:49 PM   #115
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Good question, Lorel. Is yours the only answer?

Here is another question: Can we talk about our own path without being told we are simply wrong by someone who has never met us?

AikiWeb to me seems to be about discussion. I like to discuss. I would not say you are wrong and I am right. I like to hear about other peoples experiences. Can that be okay too?
Mary
If someone (anyone) tells you that you are wrong (on any subject, any experience, any happening) how do you handle that? Do you check to see if there is any validity in what was said or do you just throw it out like bath water? Even comments from sources I don't like I evaluate to see if there is any merit in what was said.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You can, and that's a good venue for a blog, which isn't interactive.

Participating in a discussion opens yourself to the possibility that people will disagree with whatever you happen to be saying - otherwise it's just a mutual agreement party where people secretly disagree behind your back. I prefer the open disagreements.

Best,

Chris
I think that this is so true.

Gary
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:53 PM   #116
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Private discussion is great, so is public discussion. If we are going to have a public discussion we must actually state what it is we are talking about. Then open up to the idea that we could be wrong. Otherwise it's all just a big "infomercial".

I also seem to hit the- "if that's not what you want to do, then just stop talking about it" argument. The problem is we don't stop talking about it, "IP/IT/IS" is here just about everyday on Aikiweb. So there must be interest in it, because we don't stop talking about it. So as a member of Aikiweb, I would like to be involved in these discussions.

So let's talk about it.

What exactly are these duel opposing spirals, that I keep hearing about?

What are they made of?

How do you use them "inside of yourself"?

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Old 11-25-2012, 03:07 PM   #117
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Chris
You learned all this internal stuff in a year, from a guy who became an expert in twelve.
Why are you asking any questions at all?
Then again, since you claim every top shelf athlete knows internal power, why did the famous pro football guy I know topple like everyone else?
Then again, why do all of the Aikido teachers I meet keep failing when we touch hands if you are *experts* in internal power and aiki?

I know the answer. It's stunningly obvious....when there is no keyboard around, but the internet is after all, a great place to be an expert in anything.


Quote:
So let's talk about it.
What exactly are these duel opposing spirals, that I keep hearing about?
What are they made of?
How do you use them "inside of yourself"?
You already claim to know this.
This is in Taiji and Bagua. You keep telling us you learned *internals* from an expert. I had a physical discussion with three experts in their field who knew this. And FWIW, your teacher's teacher (his expert) bounced his own self off of me in an open room in front of his students when he tried to throw me using waza-I felt no internal power.

Ueshiba made the same comment about the mysteries of aiki being revealed in Dual opposing spirals and he moved using them. So did any number of DR people.
So.....tell us what it is Chris. Why are you asking questions? Why do you need it spelled out for a discussion?

You have stated openly that you think it is alI athletics. That thousands of years of warriors and IMA were wrong. So go be an athlete.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-25-2012 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:44 PM   #118
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

How can you possibly know if I am wrong? I don't care about being right, Lorel. But I don't understand how anyone can possible know what I know having never met me.

I am not sure what a circle jerk is but I know that I do like to discuss things about the Aikido I train in with other people. If that seems wrong to you you could stay off those threads.

A discussion is different from an argument.

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Old 11-25-2012, 04:22 PM   #119
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
How can you possibly know if I am wrong? I don't care about being right, Lorel. But I don't understand how anyone can possible know what I know having never met me.

I am not sure what a circle jerk is but I know that I do like to discuss things about the Aikido I train in with other people. If that seems wrong to you you could stay off those threads.

A discussion is different from an argument.
Those are good points, Mary.
And they work both ways.
Sometimes there is no right or wrong, just different ways to do things.-Like with aikido.
Sometimes there is right or wrong-like with aiki. Some things are just superior.

I think all of us need to avoid frustrating each other, to the point that regardless of right or wrong, or just being different, we get so turned off that we just don't care. I know one fellow, who whether or not he was the best MA guy in the world I would NEVER train with him. And sadly some of us feel that way about each other now. That just sucks and it's our own loss.
Isn't it more important to respect each other and to make friends than to argue over work that only a very small fraction of the human population even cares exists?

Budo is interesting in that most people who stick with it have to be of a certain type. Most people I have met in person are very nice well balanced individuals with great reserves of tenacity against perpetual testing and failure as we all learn. Luckily, I haven't met anyone in person with great flaming ego's, just those eager to be open and to research. That said, I sometimes cringe at the tone of the posting. Right or wrong, different or not, accepting the possibilities and communicating with openness is a *state of mind* that is more than just words.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-25-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:34 PM   #120
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Dan,
Why can't you just answer the question? You seem to be obsessed with me and what I know. Many have asked me about my training, and I have answered as as fully as I can, why can't you do the same?

I'm simply asking you about your stuff. It might be the same as what I know, but if it is, you're talking about it differently, so I'd like to better understand what you mean by your words.

If you are talking about something different then I have done, I would like to better understand what it is you are trying to do.

I'm just asking questions, if you can't or won't answer them, that's fine. But then why does this keep coming up publicly? If you're only interested in working with people at your seminars, then why talk about it openly in a public forum? Do you simply look at Aikiweb as a way to advertise? Or do you really want to share what it is you are doing??

Also my offer to come to one of your California seminars is still open, if you would like me to come.

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Old 11-25-2012, 06:21 PM   #121
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Dan,
Why can't you just answer the question? You seem to be obsessed with me and what I know. Many have asked me about my training, and I have answered as as fully as I can, why can't you do the same?

I'm simply asking you about your stuff. It might be the same as what I know, but if it is, you're talking about it differently, so I'd like to better understand what you mean by your words.

If you are talking about something different then I have done, I would like to better understand what it is you are trying to do.

I'm just asking questions, if you can't or won't answer them, that's fine. But then why does this keep coming up publicly? If you're only interested in working with people at your seminars, then why talk about it openly in a public forum? Do you simply look at Aikiweb as a way to advertise? Or do you really want to share what it is you are doing??

Also my offer to come to one of your California seminars is still open, if you would like me to come.
Chris
This is an endless loop....going no where. The questions you keep asking can be answered in the way you are expecting only through direct transmission....and I think you understand this. Discussion here is like picking up a set of Cliff Notes and starting from there. Besides the 'Cliff Notes' have already been provided by Dan through the number of responses and answers he has already provided....some in response to your comments.....and with a number of inputs from other folks here....including Chris Li.

Figure out a way, whatever it takes, to get with Dan and I think it will clear up for you.

Gary
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:54 PM   #122
Keith Larman
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Years ago when I first started learning to polish swords I had a guy teaching me who had me doing all sorts of stuff I didn't understand. One day I had a sword in front of me, a chinese made Japanese style sword, and I was going to reshape the entire thing. I was puzzled about one thing, however. The kissaki (tip) was poorly formed and I knew I was going to need to reshape it. I asked him "where should I place the yokote (dividing line between tip and blade itself) on this sword? I'm not sure where to put it given how poorly shaped most of it is."

His response was that I needed to simply do it to understand where it went. But I pushed -- I mean, really, how hard is it just to tell me where it should go? You know, "put it right *there*" and draw a little arrow on the scan I sent him. He replied that it wasn't really that simple or really that straight forward as many things go in to determining where that particular thing should form. I was frustrated, of course, because i wanted to do a good job on the thing and I didn't understand why he couldn't just answer the question. Finally he told me that I didn't know enough to understand the answer, even if the answer appears to be a very simple "right there" kind of thing. That frustrated me beyond belief.

Fast forward many years and I had a guy e-mailing me questions all the time about polishing. One day he asks me essentially the same question I had asked years ago. I looked at his picture and smiled because for the first time in a long while I thought back to our original discussion and how frustrated I was. And as I looked at the image this guy sent me asking me the same question, I realized that I couldn't really answer his question and do it any justice. And even if I *did* say "it goes right here" and put in an arrow very likely it wouldn't end up right in the end even if he put it there. Because there are so many factors in this topic. Because it is only one part of a vastly larger whole that requires holding the blade in hand, rolling it around in space, looking and understanding the blade. then putting it to stone. Then seeing how it was shaping out. Then refining the all the surfaces that would be "around" that point until the yokote (the dividing line) would form itself automatically as a result of a 1000 other things.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Words are imperfect representations of thoughts and experiences. And in the case of certain things there are dramatic limits to the value of verbal or written communications until a certain baseline of commonality is found. Thus far you have been quite strident in your questions, but you've also managed to frustrate most everyone who has tried to answer them. You say you understand what they're telling you but virtually all of them say "no, you're misinterpreting and not understanding what we're saying".

It is a testament to your tenacity and likely your sincerity that people have continued to answer your questions as much as they have. Maybe you should return the favor by letting it rest for a bit, at least until you get out on the mat with the people you're talking to. Then maybe you can roll that thing around in space together, look at it, see it together, and find out what might ideas might form automagically by simply experiencing something directly.

Then you can wave it all away or explain it however you see fit. But until then... I think you've hit the limits of the discussion.

Best of luck with it. Does it really need answering on-line before you get on the mat? Maybe you should consider just how very much you'll convince yourself of some model of what's really happening and make yourself even more skeptical and unable to experience whatever it is that these folk are doing...

To me it's like discussing how a long, complex recipe with complicated preparation will taste on-line. That's all fine and good, but you might want to reconsider criticism and over analysis until you actually get a chance to taste it first... Then by all means...

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Old 11-25-2012, 08:00 PM   #123
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I can understand that learning to do something can't be achieved by talking about it. This is why I am such a fan of having a sparring practice in my Aikido. You can never learn to use the techniques of Aikido without actually practicing them when someone is trying to overtake you.

I'm not talking about learning how to do what any "IP" person is doing by simply talking about it. I'm asking to be able to describe what you are doing in order to organize and understand it. Even if you can do something amazing, if you can't explain it, how can you teach others to do it?

For example, if I were a scientist speaking with another scientist about an experiment I just did. I could not give the experience I have from doing the experiment to the other scientist, by talking about it to him. however I could describe the phenomenon to him, because thorough our practice of science we have a common vocabulary. The other scientist still has to do the experiment himself for the experience, but a description is still possible. This description allows him to set up his experiment or know if he had indeed experimented with this himself.

Now we all have different backgrounds, but if we take a small bit of our time, we can create a common vocabulary. With this common vocabulary we can describe what we are doing. That is all I'm asking for. Let's create a common vocabulary.

The reason we keep going in a loop is because no one who is claiming a positive (the there is something different in IP than can be found in athletics) is willing to explain their point of view. Instead you see over and over things like "you should already know" or "it has to be felt" or "Ueshiba said". Those are not explanations, they are statements. Statements begin discussion but what follows must be questions and explanations. I feel the IP community isn't doing that, they are simply making statements over and over.

I'm trying to come up with different ways to ask questions to clarify, but I keep getting statements in return.

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Old 11-25-2012, 09:28 PM   #124
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

There are existing vocabularies for describing "dual opposing spirals," etc. However, different arts may use the same terms to describe processes that aren't quite the same. Some may not be "internal" at all. Confusion ensues.

Even within the category of authetic internal training systems, terminology can be confusing if you try to cross-reference it to the different systems. I am familiar with at least two discrete, genuine internal training methodologies that utilize the same essential body processes for power and "aiki" but which use different training methods to inculcate them and different terminologies to describe them... and some of the terms within each system overlap into the other, but mean somewhat different things to and in those different systems. Again, confusion ensues.

That's one reason why it doesn't pay to talk too much about concepts here. As so many others have said, anyone who wants to understand what the "IP/Aiki" crowd is talking about, should bite the bullet, go out and get his or her hands on one of the known people who trains and teaches those skills. It doesn't matter which methodology you latch onto if it leads to the same summit.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-25-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:41 PM   #125
DH
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Dan,
Why can't you just answer the question? You seem to be obsessed with me and what I know. Many have asked me about my training, and I have answered as as fully as I can, why can't you do the same?
I'm simply asking you about your stuff. It might be the same as what I know, but if it is, you're talking about it differently, so I'd like to better understand what you mean by your words.
I answered -on topic- in a lengthy post a ways back with no response but more questions and now personal junk thrown in. What does that say?
I...am not intrested in what you know. I have seen you move and generate power. Thank you very much. I am just asking why you...don't recognize or can answer your own questions?
Quote:
If you are talking about something different then I have done, I would like to better understand what it is you are trying to do.
Your questioning me-after insisting you mastered what I do in a year- is like insisting you are a 5th dan in Aikido and then asking me how to stand in hanmi and do Ikkyo.
Why would you claim to be an internal practioner and then be asking other internal practioners these things, as if they are unrecognizable concepts AND terminology to you?
Quote:
I'm just asking questions, if you can't or won't answer them, that's fine. But then why does this keep coming up publicly? If you're only interested in working with people at your seminars, then why talk about it openly in a public forum? Do you simply look at Aikiweb as a way to advertise? Or do you really want to share what it is you are doing??
I do share what I am doing, Chris.
After pages and pages of descriptions and discussion, including history, translations, concepts and models...and a few posts back, some layout of my approach....and after travelling and being tested the world over, and after producing students with power you say......I'm only advertizing? Thats like others here stating the people who train with me are gullible, and stupid and all of my efforts are disingenuous.
I think you can do better than to communicate with me this way, Chris.
Quote:
Also my offer to come to one of your California seminars is still open, if you would like me to come.
Really? This is quite a change from you repeatedly inferring I was full of S#*T and stating you hate me, on other boards. It certainly raised many peoples attention regarding the *sincerity* of your request to meet me.
A remarkable turn around. It might help me to know what changed?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-25-2012 at 09:53 PM.
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