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Old 11-21-2012, 03:46 PM   #76
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Anyway, I do think that local muscle flexing tends to interfere with "chain linking". So Joep makes perfect sense to me in the admonition to be as relaxed as possible to prevent this.
I agree with this, and I think modern sports movement does as well. If you fire the muscles out of order, you actually interfere with power instead of creating more. For example if I fire a localized muscle out of order, let's say my shoulder, that interrupts all the progress I've made from earlier muscle groups. This is why muscular relaxation is just as important, if not, in someways more important than muscular contraction. I don't think you would find any serious modern athletic professionals disagreeing with you on that point. So, with hypothesis 2, I think we can start to find some really common ground with how modern athletics believes motion should be made and how some "IP" folks believe it should be made.

I would say one of the bigger differences, for me anyways, is that I would say the action (contraction of muscles) doesn't usually start in the hip/abdomen area, but instead starts in the legs (when standing). This is something Hunter said was not what he was suggesting was going on. I would like to know more about that.

As for Hypothesis 1 & 3, these are ideas that are further away from what modern athletics would describe. I would be interested in talking more with people about Hypothesis 1 & 3. If we are describing a major difference between the way modern athletics use's the body, and another way of using the body (maybe IP), this is where we may find our biggest difference.

Also if there is a way to move the body without muscles, what is that method? Are there any examples of this?

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Old 11-21-2012, 03:47 PM   #77
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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If all muscles were completely relaxed what would move the body? I think this might be the formation of a better Hypothesis 3.
Well, if all muscles were completely relaxed, I wouldn't worry about moving, but about not falling on my face.
So I have to agree with Dave: muscles are needed to move the body. The problem with all this IP/IS stuff, though, is that it does not feel like the muscles are used to move the body. You feel more like your body is some elastic entity, with the dantien controlling the tensions in that entity to generate movement.

Or to put it more broadly, the problem with muscles w.r.t. IS/IP is that what the body does physiologically (Not that I know anyone that fully grasps the physiological side of IP/IS, btw.) is very different from what it feels like and from what it takes to get people to move in a IP/IS way.
Which is not that weird, I have heard a similar thing about the pose running technique: it requires you to lean forward from the ankles, but if you tell people to lean forward from the ankles, they will do all sorts of things, except lean forward from the ankles...
Which is the same points as ChrisMoses was making, I think. And sure, there's a way "to intellectually understand what is happening, even if we can't do it, or feel it", but then I would feel more comfortable talking about a balloon man than about muscles, which may not pass your standards of intellectual rigour.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:22 PM   #78
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hey Joep,

From what I just read, it sounds to me like you're saying the biggest difference between IP/IS movement and athletic movement, is not so different in the way you are using the body, but instead in the way you are thinking about and/or feeling your body.

Is this correct?

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Old 11-21-2012, 05:33 PM   #79
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

The problem I see in these recent discussions about internal and external movement is that people are using external concepts and principles to try and explain internal stuff; and this includes some of the IP/IS folks as well - there are fundamental differences between the two - look at my tag line for a clue as to what I am talking about - and then go out and feel someone that has it and can explain it in person - then come back and dissect it from that experience perspective if you like.

Greg
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:54 PM   #80
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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I realize that to some, a degree of radio silence and repeated cries of IHTBF! may seem as if some elitist clique are simply avoiding answering direct questions, being disingenuous with their efforts or even being intentionally vague to drum up all that sweet sweet seminar cash.

Personally, I don't go into details much on public forums because 1) I've tried, and my comments are often misunderstood, 2) I think it's nearly impossible to discuss this stuff in detail without some degree of physical contact and 3) everyone thinks they do that too and tries to relate it to what they already know (which leads back to #1).

I really believe that there's NO point to going into details on open forums. They're great for drumming up interest and connecting with folks who want to play. That's it. Even with videos and all the detailed verbage we can muster, it's just going to end badly. This is why we can't have nice things...

Now, I can have some pretty meaningful conversations with folks who I have previously had physical contact with or who have even had contact with similar people. What Hunter has offered makes complete sense to me and I'm almost positive we could have some pretty detailed and fruitful conversations long distance. I've met him in person, but I don't remember if we've ever even done pushout together. Lorel and I have never met in person, but we've had some really good conversations and both offered some interesting lines of study to each other. Even then, sometimes we hit the, "I'd have to feel it..." point in the conversation. I'm so bummed I was super sick this summer when I went to Hawaii, because I really wanted to meet and feel Chris Li. Maybe next time...

In 2005(?) I commented on a video of Ark and Rob and said, "yeah, we do that too, looks totally familiar..." then I went and met them, and came back and said I was wrong. Sure, what they were doing LOOKED really similar. I know folks have watched some of the short videos Jeremy and I have thrown out there and said, "yeah, we do that, looks about the same" but you never REALLY know until you feel it. "But wait!" you cry, "all you elitist IP/IS snobs sure like to comment on OTHER people's videos and say you DON'T see IT!" Yes, fair enough. I would say that with a certain amount of understanding, you do become able to see *to an extent* what we're talking about in videos. Sorry, but that's the best I can do on that one. That probably seems really unfair.

Another piece that I think gets lost in the anatomical deconstructs/hypotheses is that a LOT of the training that folks are doing centers on various visualizations. It's fine to talk about the psoas and fascia chains, but it's another to actually start to propriocept and control various parts of the body that are in play. The body is a complex system and it's not helpful to simply isolate down to a particular muscle group. The body exists as a system and this is in many ways an exploration of treating the body as a system rather than an assembly of parts. I think this is one of the reasons that western style weight lifting is so counter productive to internal skill training. But most of us haven't felt the kind of coordination that we're talking about, so again, you have to feel it, then humbly go back to what you're doing and admit, you ain't doing much! Then you shut up and get back to work. Actually, that's not entirely true, I usually just keep asking questions until Dan threatens to make me pay extra for hogging all the time.
That's certainly worth reposting. Ditto for me.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:46 PM   #81
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hey Joep,

From what I just read, it sounds to me like you're saying the biggest difference between IP/IS movement and athletic movement, is not so different in the way you are using the body, but instead in the way you are thinking about and/or feeling your body.

Is this correct?
No, that's not what I am trying to say. It is this different way of thinking and feeling that leads to a fundamentally different usage of the body.

Now it may not be totally fundamentally different from a physiological perspective (because both forms of movement are done with a human body although very differently developed), but until physiology can explain both athletic and IP/IS movement, there's no way of knowing.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:03 PM   #82
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
but until physiology can explain both athletic and IP/IS movement, there's no way of knowing.
I don't think we should assume it can't explain both. If we talk about it more I'm sure we can explain what is happening.

If we look at the IHTBF argument, we can see the validity of that argument in the need for experience. But once everyone has had the experience, we still need to understand what gave us that experience. This understanding/explanation can help not only those who have "felt it" but also those who have not had a chance to. It will also enable us to understand if we have "felt it" or if we are talking about something else. I'm a good case in point. I've already taken measures to "feel" what you guys are talking about. But I have also trained for some time with a known internal expert. I would guess I have already "felt it", so I am curious, and want to talk to others about what this "it is". Now after I see one of these fellows in 2013 I'll know for sure, but until then, I'd like to ask questions. I know how I would describe what I call internal, and compare that to what you guys call "IP/IT/IS".

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Old 11-22-2012, 04:09 PM   #83
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hi chris

Is it possible for you to define what tim felt like outside of waza. And what solo exerciese you were given to develop the connected body? This might help decipher if we're discussing the same thing

Cheers

Chris
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:12 PM   #84
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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I don't think we should assume it can't explain both. If we talk about it more I'm sure we can explain what is happening.
It's not an assumption. If anyone knows of a good physiology study investigating IP/IS, please post it, because I don't know of any!
As for working it out between the two of us: I'm not knowledgeable in either physiology or IP/IS to believe that would succeed.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:04 PM   #85
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hi chris

Is it possible for you to define what tim felt like outside of waza. And what solo exerciese you were given to develop the connected body? This might help decipher if we're discussing the same thing

Cheers

Chris
Tim feels heavy. Way heavier then you would suspect a 150 lbs man to be. I've wrestled with a 350lbs guy who felt lighter then Tim. He also feels relaxed and very moveable, but when you move him you tend to become unbalanced, or fall into a trap of some sort. I'm sure that I've spent well over a hundred hours rolling, wrestling and boxing with Tim. He feels surprisingly powerful, yet in a very fluid and nonresistant way. If Tim lays on you, you often want to tap out from the pressure alone, yet it never feels like he is resisting you, other then being really heavy.

We did lot's of connection exercises. These helped learn how to connect the hands and the center, while grounding or delivering force from the gorund. The idea of movement is whole body power. So if your leg moves, that power comes out your hand. Every class (be that BJJ, Xing yi or Shen wu) started with physical and connection exercises, followed by technique, and then some kind of sparring or free play practice. I also studied the Zhao bao Taiji exercises with Tim. Those develop unbelievable leg strength and flexibility, which makes the power you issue feel kind of strange and shocking.

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Old 11-22-2012, 11:43 PM   #86
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Tim feels heavy. Way heavier then you would suspect a 150 lbs man to be. I've wrestled with a 350lbs guy who felt lighter then Tim. He also feels relaxed and very moveable, but when you move him you tend to become unbalanced, or fall into a trap of some sort. I'm sure that I've spent well over a hundred hours rolling, wrestling and boxing with Tim. He feels surprisingly powerful, yet in a very fluid and nonresistant way. If Tim lays on you, you often want to tap out from the pressure alone, yet it never feels like he is resisting you, other then being really heavy.
Interesting experience. Would you describe how he becomes heavy to you? Why do you lose your balance when you try to move him? Is there any training method or skill for that? Thanks in advance!

Jaemin
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:31 AM   #87
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Tim knows how to fully put his weight down, into whatever spot he wants. He's not holding any undue tension, so all of his weight can go where he wants to direct it. If that's down, he feels super heavy, if it's out he hit's or throws you super hard.

You lose your balance for any number of reasons: You were stuck to him and moving him unbalances you. You use more pressure then needed to try and move him, you over extend. He puts something (leg, foot, hip, etc) in your way when he moved so you fall over it. He directs your movement when he moves so you're in an awkward position after he moves, you fall down with no effort on his part.

There are lot's of ways to train it. Some of it comes from organizational exercises (ways to use your body) some of it comes from hours and hours of sparring, and understanding how certain things will play out.

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Old 11-23-2012, 01:58 AM   #88
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Thanks for the info!

Im hopefully going to take my aiki work into sparring after a few years of solo training. Unfortunately I'm not a fighter and need to learn everything from scratch, but I'm a firm believer in pressure testing this stuff to progress exponentially.

In your description, you make no mention of intent work, spiral conditioning, or cross body conditioning, - is this of interest to you. Maybe this is where some people differ?

Just throwing ideas around really

Cheers

Chris
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:42 AM   #89
Howard Popkin
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post

You lose your balance for any number of reasons: You were stuck to him and moving him unbalances you.
How did he stick you to him ?

Thanks,

Howard

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Old 11-23-2012, 12:14 PM   #90
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Aiki as a clash of forces
Ueshiba and generations of giants before him focused on power (not normal power) and solo training to achieve power...for a reason. It was the central pillar of how to make aiki happen. You need a profound "neutral" in order to demonstrate and manipulate force within you, to create change in the forces outside of you that are attempting to enter in. The more developed you are, the more those forces are never allowed to enter in and are dealt with by your making change in you on the supported surface. If and when you encounter someone equal or superior who might enter you have management within and movement to deflect.
Deflection to create aiki is not done the way people try to move. Moving away from a force vector is just jujutsu. Anyone can do it. Moving in accordance with in yo-you now have a supported tangent that is created in a balanced state, that created a disruption that is all but impossible for them to track. This leaves them continually reacting to your movement and trying to respond to a non sourced change they cannot apply force on.

In/yo creates a state within you, that makes a continuous flow of tangents outside of you that never allows force on you. Thus your movements make "no force" possible. No internal management of in/yo inside of you, no aiki between you and someone else-just jujutsu movement.Add to this the ability for explosive force (force that need not cause any harm at all) and you have a nice package that is devestatingly effective.
This missing requirement of in/yo inside of you first, was the source of the damning comment of a Taiji grandmaster who taught for 11 years in Japan (he taught two of Sagawas people) who stated...
"All this talk of aiki. Where is Yin? Where is Yang? How then is there ai-ki? You cannot pretend Dantian. You will be found out!"
Notice his critique was that you must first demonstrate yin and yang in you, and his instant correlation of that to the dantain. Where all is joined and balanced. Oddly, his admonition matches Ueshiba; who continually answered question on aiki by first and foremost discussing a balance of forces within himself.
Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners never address that because they just don't get it, get him, get the history and pedagogy of what their own founder was discussing, all while claiming higher knowledge that is actually nothing more jujutsu principles. So, when you begin a discussion with someone and they have no understanding of what Ueshiba talked about; Six direction forces, aiki being opposing forces within yourself, heaven/earth/man, the mysteries of which are displayed in dual opposing spirals that give birth to Yin and yang, No idea of his exercises such as rowing, and twirling his stick in the air, and what they meant, no idea of what Dantian is, and how to develop it...where do you begin?
What is fascinating as well is how this work creates the very foundational spiritual challenge AIkido should be known for. Harnessing power, and being able to deliver it is the foundation for spiritual growth in witholding and controlling it. His was never the peacnick model of avoiding power and running away from force. His constant admonitions were of possessing power killing force and then having to forge ones soul to manage it's use and practice that.
I had a recent encounter with a 90 years old who trained with Tohei and Ueshiba who had strong opinions on aikido's founder having and displaying *POWER* repeatedly but the modern art being absent of it. He was delighted to one again feel Ueshiba's power being taught in the art once again.

What is happening right now is an evolutionary step that is being forced on the Asian arts. The teachers are going to have to step up and demonstrate skills and then actually teach, or we are going to go someone place else. No one is going to abandon the Asian teachers though. Just about every martial artist I know will pick an Asian face and established art, nine out of ten times. You could actually decimate their teacher right in front of them it wouldn't matter at all. Westerners prefer Asian arts. What we are going to be forced to do is to start demonstrating a higher level of skill. It is my opinion that most of the Shihan are simply no capable of it. Of those who are, they are going to be facing a growing student base that they cannot handle so easily. Eventually the art is going to be known for people practicing with real power and aiki the Ueshiba way, and than those who can't handle them. I would be happy to revisit that statement ten years from now. It is going to be a whole different landscape.
Dan
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:18 PM   #91
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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How did he stick you to him ?

Thanks,

Howard
In some cases I would say that I'm just not sure. But many times, it was because I was subconsciously using him for support. I didn't know that I was using him for stability (double weighting) and when I moved him I moved my support. This makes you feel like you're stuck (because you're using him for support) and when he moves you fly.

From the students perspective many of these things seem otherworldly, but when you talk to Tim about them, he's quick to demystify what is happening, usually he'll be quick to put it in terms that you can understand, and explain why something felt so amazing.

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Old 11-23-2012, 02:31 PM   #92
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hey Dan,

What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing.

While I would agree, in my training, that achieving a true neutral inside yourself is very important. That neutral being your ability to relax your physical structure so that you have nothing unnecessary (unnecessary tension in the legs, shoulders hips etc) working to support your structure. I wouldn't describe that in the way you do. Can you explain how the duel opposing spirals are used, and what they are made up of?

I would also say the the balancing of forces (in/yo) has mostly to do with you balancing any force that is trying to act upon you, by giving to it. Once you give to the force you may, in some case's flank that force, or redirect that force, or merge with that force. Is this something like what you are talking about?

When I read what you are talking about it comes off like you mean to say that you oppose the force that is coming in. When I personally would say you accept the force that is coming in, while keeping your own structure, then flank, redirect, or merge with that force.

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Old 11-23-2012, 02:55 PM   #93
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Edit: Dual post! My apologies, the other was from my phone and I was too busy to write.

Aiki as a clash of forces
Ueshiba and generations of giants before him focused on power (soft power-not normal power) and solo training to achieve power...for a reason. It was the central pillar of how to make aiki happen. You need a profound "neutral" in order to demonstrate and manipulate force within you, in order to create change in the forces outside of you that are attempting to enter in. The more developed you are, the more those forces are never allowed to enter in and are dealt with by your making change in you on the supported surface. This occurs first by generating power from dantian in opposing forces, and then manipulating them. That is the floating bridge. If and when you encounter someone equal or superior, who might have the capacity to enter you, you then have management within and movement to deflect forces.

Management of force
Deflection, projection, absorption
Deflection
Deflection to create aiki is not done the way people try to move naturally. Moving *away* from a force vector is just jujutsu. Anyone can do it. Moving in accordance with in/yo means you now have a supported neural tangent point that is supported from dantian -in itself that is created in a balanced state- that now allows you to create a disruption using a balance of in/yo in internal and surface movement, that is all but impossible for them to track. This leaves them continually reacting to your movement and trying to respond to a non sourced change they cannot apply force on. So, in/yo creates a state within you, that makes a continuous flow of tangents outside of you that never allows force on you. Thus your movements make "no force" possible. No internal management of in/yo inside of you, no aiki between you and someone else-just jujutsu movement.

Projection
Add to this the ability for explosive force (force that need not cause any harm at all) and you have a nice package that is devastatingly effective. Projection first occurs once again from the management of opposing forces creating a state in your frame and structure. This can expand outward or contract inward. It may expand outward in 360 degrees. it may be focused to a point, or it can be applied in a rotating tangent, or it can be applied expanding *around* a contacted point supressing or dampening all vectored resistance. This gives the person a feeling of being smothered, and also of you supposedly "reading" their responses and being "ahead of them" even though you really haven't dedicated any energy or focus to that model. This can also be a non static ever fluid state.

Absorption
This is the above in an opposite tract. It requires somewhat of a leading aspect toward you that is deflected off as well.

All of the above has many aspects of additional movement in opening and closing the body, spiral movement through dantian that brings the overall effect *off the charts* in trying to track the many different "aiki's" that are possible in using the body in a myriad of ways to manage force. This is too complicated to cover in written form.

Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me
Aiki and yin/yang. Where is yin and yang?
This missing requirement of in/yo inside of you first, was the source of the damning comment of a Taiji grandmaster who taught for 11 years in Japan (he taught two of Sagawas people) who stated...
"All this talk of aiki. Where is Yin? Where is Yang? How then is there ai-ki? You cannot pretend Dantian. You will be found out!"
Notice his critique was that you must first demonstrate yin and yang in you, and his instant correlation of that to the dantain. Where all is joined and balanced. Oddly, his admonition matches Ueshiba; who continually answered question on aiki by first and foremost discussing a balance of forces within himself.
Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners never address that because they just don't get it, get him, get the history and pedagogy of what their own founder was discussing, all while claiming higher knowledge that is actually nothing more jujutsu principles. So, when you begin a discussion with someone and they have no understanding of what Ueshiba talked about; Six direction forces, aiki being opposing forces within yourself, heaven/earth/man, the mysteries of which are displayed in dual opposing spirals that give birth to Yin and yang, No idea of his exercises such as rowing, and twirling his stick in the air, and what they meant, no idea of what Dantian is, and how to develop it...where do you begin?
What is fascinating as well is how this work creates the very foundational spiritual challenge Aikido should be known for. Harnessing power, and being able to deliver it is the foundation for spiritual growth in withholding and controlling that power. This is yet another aspect of Aikido that i greatly...greatly...admire. I now have met so many capable men and women who were drawing to the art for this reason as well. It gives us a lifetime to experience that forging of spirit/mind/body.

I had a recent encounter with a 90 year old who trained with Tohei and Ueshiba who had strong opinions on aikido's founder having and displaying *POWER* repeatedly but the modern art being absent of it. He was delighted to once again feel Ueshiba's power being taught in the art once again.
That said, it was never the peacnick model of avoiding power and running away from force. His constant admonitions were of possessing power as a killing force and then having to forge ones soul to manage it's use and that practice and hone that control. An old saying goes "If I raise my hand. I withdraw my temper. If i raise my temper, I withdraw my hand."
There is a conundrum to Aikido and really many high level arts, that can feed us for the rest of our lives.

What is happening right now is an evolutionary step that is being forced on the Asian arts. The teachers are going to have to step up and demonstrate skills and then actually teach, or we are going to go somewhere else. No one is going to abandon the Asian teachers though. Just about every martial artist I know will pick an Asian face and established art, nine out of ten times. What we are going to force teachers to do is to start demonstrating a higher level of skill. As the recent Daito ryu shihan stated in his Aikido Journal article "most of the Shihan in the arts are simply not capable of aiki." Of those who are out teaching publicly, they are going to be facing a growing student base that they cannot handle so easily. Eventually the art is going to be known for people practicing with real power and aiki, the Ueshiba way, and those who can't handle them.
I would be happy to revisit that statement ten years from now. I believe we are about to create a whole different landscape.
Dan
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:25 PM   #94
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hey Dan,

What makes this force? What is the in/yo made up of? Inside of yourself, what forces are you balancing.

While I would agree, in my training, that achieving a true neutral inside yourself is very important. That neutral being your ability to relax your physical structure so that you have nothing unnecessary (unnecessary tension in the legs, shoulders hips etc) working to support your structure. I wouldn't describe that in the way you do. Can you explain how the duel opposing spirals are used, and what they are made up of?

I would also say the the balancing of forces (in/yo) has mostly to do with you balancing any force that is trying to act upon you, by giving to it. Once you give to the force you may, in some case's flank that force, or redirect that force, or merge with that force. Is this something like what you are talking about?

When I read what you are talking about it comes off like you mean to say that you oppose the force that is coming in. When I personally would say you accept the force that is coming in, while keeping your own structure, then flank, redirect, or merge with that force.
Hi Chris
Were you to have actually studied internal training -instead of studying the internal arts- you would be abe to answer those questions. Anyone who has...could.
Sadly ten, or even twenty years of training in...the internal arts in China...is about equal to training aikido in Japan for twenty years and thinking you are an expert in.....aiki. There simply is no promise that attendance meant expertise. In both cases you're pretty much going to end up just learning ...jujutsu. Sort of like..."an athlete." Which is why some people think athletes have internal power.
It is worth considering one Chinese grandmaster admitting that...
"There are only Chinese Grandmasters."
Who are they teaching...what?
I watched a Japanese teacher specifically and in detail NOT teach entire rooms what he taught others in private.
Anyway...
"relaxing your physical structure so that you have nothing unnecessary (unnecessary tension in the legs, shoulders hips etc) working to support your structure.".....is a bogus admonition offered by so many teachers it has become a standard. It is as useless for gaining a bujutsu body as teachers telling us to "cut from center," or "move your insides." All of which is non-descriptive, unsupported and has no specific value to what relaxing is. You might as well just go to sleep. That's relaxing as well.

"I wouldn't describe that in the way you do. Can you explain how the duel opposing spirals are used, and what"
I have many times. I have also been told I was full of crap, a snakeoil salesman, a fraud, a con man, marketing expert, and any manner of insult you can possibly think of for trying to show and tell everyone what the old man was really doing. Including jokes thrown my way of
"How do you drive a car..."
"Dual opposing spirals creating shear"...blah blah blah...hah hah hah.
Then....
Chris Li discovers Ueshiba's previously untranslated statement all but quoting me 50 years ago stating that "The mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals....." detail left out
How in the Fecking world...did that happen________________?
Because it is an actual teaching model he was taught and I was taught- that's how.
My response I guess is
"Why am I taking heat...for a teaching that was known..when you guys are the aikido experts?
Why the hell don't you guys know this already?
And why
Why
Do you continually fail when touching someone who uses Ueshiba's detailed models?
Why?
There is no answer I have yet to receive on the internet. So...I think I will leave the debates for one-on-one encounters. It tends to unstop peoples ears, we become friends, and explore Ueshiba's genius and the material that predated him that he continualy quoted and pointed to...together....and with joy.
In fact I am doing that tomorrow with Aikido Shihans, Daito ryu Kyoju Dairi's, 4th, 5th and sixth dans and and many mixed artists, all in one room laughing and filled with joy...with no one teling me I am full of crap and selling them a bill of goods or being a con man!!
Well, mostly......

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-23-2012 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:03 PM   #95
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Chris
Were you to have actually studied internal training -instead of studying the internal arts- you would be abe to answer those questions. Anyone who has...could.
The problem here is, this isn't a true statement. While you are correct that anyone who hasn't done what you call internal training, should know your answers. People who haven't done what you do wouldn't know your answers for those questions.

In order to talk about something we must find common ground. That's what I'm seeking to do. If you're not interested in finding common ground, that's fine, but then we don't need to say anything further to each other.

Quote:

Sadly ten, or even twenty years of training in...the internal arts in China...is about equal to training aikido in Japan for twenty years and thinking you are an expert in.....aiki. There simply is no promise that attendance meant expertise. In both cases you're pretty much going to end up just learning ...jujutsu. Sort of like..."an athlete." Which is why some people think athletes have internal power.
It is worth considering one Chinese grandmaster admitting that...
"There are only Chinese Grandmasters."
Who are they teaching...what?
I watched a Japanese teacher specifically and in detail NOT teach entire rooms what he taught others in private.
Anyway...
There is a kind of cultural hang up here that I'm not comfortable discussing.

Quote:
"relaxing your physical structure so that you have nothing unnecessary (unnecessary tension in the legs, shoulders hips etc) working to support your structure.".....is a bogus admonition offered by so many teachers it has become a standard. It is as useless for gaining a bujutsu body as teachers telling us to "cut from center," or "move your insides." All of which is non-descriptive, unsupported and has no specific value to what relaxing is. You might as well just go to sleep. That's relaxing as well.
I disagree. When standing, only a few muscles need to be working in order to hold the body up. When we get stressed out, we tend to contract unnecessary muscle groups. For example, when someone clinches their fists when they get worried. This is an example of unnecessary tension in the body. When you are flexing your quads when they can relax, or your deltoids when standing upright has nothing to do with these muscle groups. Any time there is unnecessary tension in the body it leads to the body being "out of balance". I think that description is a good one, but I'd be willing to entertain other ones as well.

Quote:
"I wouldn't describe that in the way you do. Can you explain how the duel opposing spirals are used, and what"
I have many times. I have also been told I was full of crap, a snakeoil salesman, a fraud, a con man, marketing expert, and any manner of insult you can possibly think of for trying to show and tell everyone what the old man was really doing. Including jokes thrown my way of
"How do you drive a car..."
"Dual opposing spirals creating shear"...blah blah blah...hah hah hah.
Then....
Chris Li discovers Ueshiba's previously untranslated statement all but quoting me 50 years ago stating that "The mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals....." detail left out
How in the Fecking world...did that happen________________?
Because it is an actual teaching model he was taught and I was taught- that's how.
My response I guess is
"Why am I taking heat...for a teaching that was known..when you guys are the aikido experts?
Why the hell don't you guys know this already?
And why
Why
Do you continually fail when touching someone who uses Ueshiba's detailed models?
Why?
Dan, to use a recent quote "All of which is non-descriptive, unsupported and has no specific value." If you don't want to answer the question that's fine.

Quote:
I think I will leave the debates for one-on-one encounters.
Oh, sorry, that's all you had to say. But then why post on Aikiweb in threads where people are discussing things?

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Old 11-23-2012, 05:02 PM   #96
phitruong
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Just about every martial artist I know will pick an Asian face and established art, nine out of ten times.
Dan
that is cool. since i am an asian (last i checked this morning .... in the shower), i got a head start on you guys. this means i don't have to work hard at it and still look good. ya, don't hate me because i am natural and beautiful!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:30 PM   #97
Chris Li
 
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
that is cool. since i am an asian (last i checked this morning .... in the shower), i got a head start on you guys. this means i don't have to work hard at it and still look good. ya, don't hate me because i am natural and beautiful!
"Soke Phi", has kind of a ring to it...

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-23-2012, 05:50 PM   #98
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Given his predilection for good living, and living well, that would make him a Rum-Soke-d Phi-St.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:05 PM   #99
DH
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Posts: 3,394
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
The problem here is, this isn't a true statement. While you are correct that anyone who hasn't done what you call internal training, should know your answers. People who haven't done what you do wouldn't know your answers for those questions.
Chris
That leaves you out of answering the question.
Why...don't you know the answers?

Quote:
In order to talk about something we must find common ground. That's what I'm seeking to do. If you're not interested in finding common ground, that's fine, but then we don't need to say anything further to each other.
I have common ground with other people who have trained in ICMA in China. In detail. All of whom can answer those qestions. Why...since you claim to have learned internals in a year from an expert...do you not have answers?

Quote:
There is a kind of cultural hang up here that I'm not comfortable discussing
.
The cultural hang up is not of our making and it is actually understandable considering these things are part of their cultural heritage and their teaching model is throughout their culture.

Quote:
I disagree. When standing, only a few muscles need to be working in order to hold the body up. When we get stressed out, we tend to contract unnecessary muscle groups. For example, when someone clinches their fists when they get worried. This is an example of unnecessary tension in thei body. When you are flexing your quads when they can relax, or your deltoids when standing upright has nothing to do with these muscle groups. Any time there is unnecessary tension in the body it leads to the body being "out of balance". I think that description is a good one, but I'd be willing to entertain other ones as well.
I have met thousand of people who relax or... flex... as they are toppled. It has not one thing to do with connecting the body, where, how, and what-to-what. It just isn't anything I recognize as *supported* internal power. Now, there is a way and means to relax tha is not the same as *relaxing* that makes power on contact. This power is soft, neutral and manipulated to make kuzushi, or aiki on contact.

Quote:
Dan, to use a recent quote "All of which is non-descriptive, unsupported and has no specific value." If you don't want to answer the question that's fine.
Chris, I did answer

Quote:
Oh, sorry, that's all you had to say. But then why post on Aikiweb in threads where people are discussing things?
Well actually I have written more *useful* things pointing in the right direction than most anyone here. And Chris...I am travelling and putting my reputation on the line in so many open rooms against seriously capable people that i loss count, all in trying to help and putting my money where my mouth is.
On any other topic I have tremendous respect for your search and what you are trying to do.
Dan
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:26 AM   #100
woudew
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Edit: Dual post! My apologies, the other was from my phone and I was too busy to write.

Aiki as a clash of forces
Ueshiba and generations of giants before him focused on power (soft power-not normal power) and solo training to achieve power...for a reason. It was the central pillar of how to make aiki happen. You need a profound "neutral" in order to demonstrate and manipulate force within you, in order to create change in the forces outside of you that are attempting to enter in. The more developed you are, the more those forces are never allowed to enter in and are dealt with by your making change in you on the supported surface. This occurs first by generating power from dantian in opposing forces, and then manipulating them. That is the floating bridge. If and when you encounter someone equal or superior, who might have the capacity to enter you, you then have management within and movement to deflect forces.

Management of force
Deflection, projection, absorption
Deflection
Deflection to create aiki is not done the way people try to move naturally. Moving *away* from a force vector is just jujutsu. Anyone can do it. Moving in accordance with in/yo means you now have a supported neural tangent point that is supported from dantian -in itself that is created in a balanced state- that now allows you to create a disruption using a balance of in/yo in internal and surface movement, that is all but impossible for them to track. This leaves them continually reacting to your movement and trying to respond to a non sourced change they cannot apply force on. So, in/yo creates a state within you, that makes a continuous flow of tangents outside of you that never allows force on you. Thus your movements make "no force" possible. No internal management of in/yo inside of you, no aiki between you and someone else-just jujutsu movement.

Projection
Add to this the ability for explosive force (force that need not cause any harm at all) and you have a nice package that is devastatingly effective. Projection first occurs once again from the management of opposing forces creating a state in your frame and structure. This can expand outward or contract inward. It may expand outward in 360 degrees. it may be focused to a point, or it can be applied in a rotating tangent, or it can be applied expanding *around* a contacted point supressing or dampening all vectored resistance. This gives the person a feeling of being smothered, and also of you supposedly "reading" their responses and being "ahead of them" even though you really haven't dedicated any energy or focus to that model. This can also be a non static ever fluid state.

Absorption
This is the above in an opposite tract. It requires somewhat of a leading aspect toward you that is deflected off as well.

All of the above has many aspects of additional movement in opening and closing the body, spiral movement through dantian that brings the overall effect *off the charts* in trying to track the many different "aiki's" that are possible in using the body in a myriad of ways to manage force. This is too complicated to cover in written form.

Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me
Aiki and yin/yang. Where is yin and yang?
This missing requirement of in/yo inside of you first, was the source of the damning comment of a Taiji grandmaster who taught for 11 years in Japan (he taught two of Sagawas people) who stated...
"All this talk of aiki. Where is Yin? Where is Yang? How then is there ai-ki? You cannot pretend Dantian. You will be found out!"
Notice his critique was that you must first demonstrate yin and yang in you, and his instant correlation of that to the dantain. Where all is joined and balanced. Oddly, his admonition matches Ueshiba; who continually answered question on aiki by first and foremost discussing a balance of forces within himself.
Aikiweb and Aikido practitioners never address that because they just don't get it, get him, get the history and pedagogy of what their own founder was discussing, all while claiming higher knowledge that is actually nothing more jujutsu principles. So, when you begin a discussion with someone and they have no understanding of what Ueshiba talked about; Six direction forces, aiki being opposing forces within yourself, heaven/earth/man, the mysteries of which are displayed in dual opposing spirals that give birth to Yin and yang, No idea of his exercises such as rowing, and twirling his stick in the air, and what they meant, no idea of what Dantian is, and how to develop it...where do you begin?
What is fascinating as well is how this work creates the very foundational spiritual challenge Aikido should be known for. Harnessing power, and being able to deliver it is the foundation for spiritual growth in withholding and controlling that power. This is yet another aspect of Aikido that i greatly...greatly...admire. I now have met so many capable men and women who were drawing to the art for this reason as well. It gives us a lifetime to experience that forging of spirit/mind/body.

I had a recent encounter with a 90 year old who trained with Tohei and Ueshiba who had strong opinions on aikido's founder having and displaying *POWER* repeatedly but the modern art being absent of it. He was delighted to once again feel Ueshiba's power being taught in the art once again.
That said, it was never the peacnick model of avoiding power and running away from force. His constant admonitions were of possessing power as a killing force and then having to forge ones soul to manage it's use and that practice and hone that control. An old saying goes "If I raise my hand. I withdraw my temper. If i raise my temper, I withdraw my hand."
There is a conundrum to Aikido and really many high level arts, that can feed us for the rest of our lives.

What is happening right now is an evolutionary step that is being forced on the Asian arts. The teachers are going to have to step up and demonstrate skills and then actually teach, or we are going to go somewhere else. No one is going to abandon the Asian teachers though. Just about every martial artist I know will pick an Asian face and established art, nine out of ten times. What we are going to force teachers to do is to start demonstrating a higher level of skill. As the recent Daito ryu shihan stated in his Aikido Journal article "most of the Shihan in the arts are simply not capable of aiki." Of those who are out teaching publicly, they are going to be facing a growing student base that they cannot handle so easily. Eventually the art is going to be known for people practicing with real power and aiki, the Ueshiba way, and those who can't handle them.
I would be happy to revisit that statement ten years from now. I believe we are about to create a whole different landscape.
Dan
Great writing, Dan.

Thanks.
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