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Old 11-17-2012, 05:45 PM   #76
Alfonso
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Joseph Brown (I've met him too *gasp* ) has had quite a bit of exposure to the real deal. His stuff is Xing Yi pardon the spelling, I think it's rather unfortunate that yet another person trying to help here is being dismissed summarily. So you guys, have you met Joseph Brown, have you felt him? Can you therefore then assume he has no reason to say what he said?

Yeah, by all means go out and meet people.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:51 PM   #77
DH
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
You know these "hes not internal" type of wars and such can be stopped if people just shut up, be humble, and meet other people to see how truly "1nt3rn4l" they are. Anyone with me?
Yes.
I have er...argued with these amateur/experts, and then took their advice and then crossed hands with acknowledged big dog Chinese experts in open rooms.
I will only say that after reading blogs and posts and then seeing some people actually move....I know who's opinions are worth listening to and who are nothing more than just self acknowledged gad flies.
You cannot pretend dantian. Stop listening to internet wannabes and have the real experts test you.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:00 PM   #78
Alfonso
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yes.
I have er...argued with these amateur/experts, and then took their advice and then crossed hands with acknowledged big dog Chinese experts in open rooms.
I will only say that after reading blogs and posts and then seeing some people actually move....I know who's opinions are worth listening to and who are nothing more than just self acknowledged gad flies.
You cannot pretend dantian. Stop listening to internet wannabes and have the real experts test you.
Dan AFAIK you havent met Sigman, and your dislike for him is quite legendary by now. I have met you and you have held my hands and taught me. And you had nothing bad to say about me either; in fact you praised me a lot. Internet wannabe? Why so harsh?

BTW, I would encourage all of you to meet Dan Harden too; and regardless of how important you consider your teachers to be The Top dogs of internal arts, the fact is that all of this is very very rare, and if it isnt neijia , it doesnt mean it doesnt use neijin, and that it stands head and shoulders above Aikido as usual.

And BTW I'm no teacher, no expert nor do I have a dog in this race. I've gone all blabbermouth and started spewing online because it might help other of you who are sick and tired of the same old same old we have it and you dont dialogue in here. It's time to raise the bar for all of us.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:34 PM   #79
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
Joseph Brown (I've met him too *gasp* ) has had quite a bit of exposure to the real deal. His stuff is Xing Yi pardon the spelling, I think it's rather unfortunate that yet another person trying to help here is being dismissed summarily. So you guys, have you met Joseph Brown, have you felt him? Can you therefore then assume he has no reason to say what he said?

Yeah, by all means go out and meet people.
Yet Joseph Brown seems to have dismissed summarily Sam Chin and made presumptions about his skills without having met him, based on a few YouTube videos viewed out of context with his overall system. I have met and felt Sam Chin, and I have also had "quite a bit of exposure to the real deal" and have trained in IP for many years, and have a different opinion of Sam Chin than does Joseph Brown, who has not met and felt him.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:43 PM   #80
Alfonso
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Yet Joseph Brown seems to have dismissed summarily Sam Chin and made presumptions about his skills without having met him, based on a few YouTube videos viewed out of context with his overall system. I have met and felt Sam Chin, and I have also had "quite a bit of exposure to the real deal" and have trained in IP for many years, and have a different opinion of Sam Chin than does Joseph Brown, who has not met and felt him.
I'm glad that you have had exposure to the real deal; and have trained in IP for many years. You have a diferent opinion of Sam Chin than JB, well, not sure you are talking about the same thing at all, I dont think Joseph said anything about Sam being a fake, not having internal power, or being a bad martial artist.

I dont think Joseph was dismissing Sam Chin. I think he just was pointing out that the "neijia" are not a grouping of martial arts that use internal strength. And I think he would also say that Aikido isnt one of those either.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:05 AM   #81
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Chris Western wrote: View Post
10-04...!!! It's hard for people not to see their teachers as gods...I've yet to meet the perfect martial arist. I have meet and trained with awsome budo men, but none are perfect. Even Ueshiba tripped on his hakama...!!! :0) These men still serve as my motivation.

All The Best,

ChrisW
Honestly, my goal is to find the most efficient way to move in a CQC situation or even in a military capacity where I am required to run, climb, march, crawl and carry heavy bags with a mind and body that's properly relaxed as possible. Also being that I am small, if I ever do get into a confrontation, it would be dangerous for me to get into a contest of strength with someone (as it is more likely they will overpower) me. For this reason, I am studying stuff like "aiki" (also love how some of "we do 1nt3rn4l" folks talk about what they are doing is aiki in the face of people who have studied with Roppokai, Kodokai, or even Sagawa peeps and are vetted by many people and then have the gall to say what these people are doing is not "int3rn4l") and kuzushi techniques (rather, I am studying ways to prepare a body that gives birth to aiki techniques) to give me a strategic advantage over my opponent. I know that the usual (read: "external") way of doing things (weight lifting, vector changing jujutsu stuff, etc.) will not get me to that point.

Personally, if someone claims to teach things that will help me to my goals and are vetted by all sorts of people, then I will shut my mouth until I've touched hands with them and only then make a judgment, even if some people are claiming this person is not doing "the 1nt3rn4l". Reason being is thatI put all the goals I stated under the larger goal of "bodyskill" or "movement" and not necessarily "IP/IS". If a person's training methodology will help me reach those larger goals and will help me navigate around the truth of movement/bodyskill then it's all good even if people are sticklers and are discrediting the stuff as "oooh, not internal" or "oooooh, not pure internal". Who gives a **** really? At the worst, some people are probably using different language to describe what they are doing and are possibly doing similar things as pure "1nt3rn4l" peeps and maybe even better than those purported pure internal peeps! For me, work with I have (my only reference for this stuff is Aunkai, Rob, Daito-ryu Roppokai, and Systema..althogh people will argue that Systema is useless for this), train my ass off and if someone doesn't speak the same language I do, I keep it humble and don't get into a silly ass terminology war online, and wait for the opportunity to train with that person. And if they don't think what I am doing is "internal", that's cool too. I am aiming for "bodskill", not "IP".

I don't know..I guess I like it to keep it simple?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:21 AM   #82
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
Joseph Brown (I've met him too *gasp* ) has had quite a bit of exposure to the real deal. His stuff is Xing Yi pardon the spelling, I think it's rather unfortunate that yet another person trying to help here is being dismissed summarily. So you guys, have you met Joseph Brown, have you felt him? Can you therefore then assume he has no reason to say what he said?

Yeah, by all means go out and meet people.
I would love to meet Joseph Brown, if he is doing any seminars or anything like that in Japan, I would pay if he can help me reach my goals in bodyskill. I mean..if he is really that good. But if Sam Chin or Dan or Ark (all guys who some people say are not doing pure internal) can show me a method to help me reach my above-stated goals in the most efficient manner and can demonstrate those skills in a very high level (and people will say that they do possess those skills in spades), then I will study their methods even if what they do is not classified as "pure neijia" or "pure internal" as some people say.

I guess we are talking at cross-purposes here. In short, if you want to learn a neijia with someone who demonstrates the high potential of the art..go study with CXW or whatever. But if you want to study pure efficient movement like I do, then studying with Sam Chin or Dan or Ark will be good enough for me.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:31 AM   #83
Alfonso
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I would love to meet Joseph Brown, if he is doing any seminars or anything like that in Japan, I would pay if he can help me reach my goals in bodyskill. I mean..if he is really that good. But if Sam Chin or Dan or Ark (all guys who some people say are not doing pure internal) can show me a method to help me reach my above-stated goals in the most efficient manner and can demonstrate those skills in a very high level (and people will say that they do possess those skills in spades), then I will study their methods even if what they do is not classified as "pure neijia" or "pure internal" as some people say.

I guess we are talking at cross-purposes here. In short, if you want to learn a neijia with someone who demonstrates the high potential of the art..go study with CXW or whatever. But if you want to study pure efficient movement like I do, then studying with Sam Chin or Dan or Ark will be good enough for me.
That's cool. I have met Rob too, I dont see him chiming in to say anything about him and Akuzawa sensei being "pure internal" or even being the slightest insecure about this. And yeah, i think all of the above mentioned are great martial artists and fine teachers.

Its like if you're a photographer or a programmer or some other kind of professional, you dont go and say all authors in the field are the same, and you dont say I will only read from this author and no one else. And you certainly wouldnt settle to study from one book alone, and never invest in your learning from as many sources as you can. Is this a competition for exclusive teaching rights in some way? Why?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:24 AM   #84
DH
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
Dan AFAIK you havent met Sigman, and your dislike for him is quite legendary by now. I have met you and you have held my hands and taught me. And you had nothing bad to say about me either; in fact you praised me a lot. Internet wannabe? Why so harsh?

BTW, I would encourage all of you to meet Dan Harden too; and regardless of how important you consider your teachers to be The Top dogs of internal arts, the fact is that all of this is very very rare, and if it isnt neijia , it doesnt mean it doesnt use neijin, and that it stands head and shoulders above Aikido as usual.

And BTW I'm no teacher, no expert nor do I have a dog in this race. I've gone all blabbermouth and started spewing online because it might help other of you who are sick and tired of the same old same old we have it and you dont dialogue in here. It's time to raise the bar for all of us.
Alfonso
I wasn't referring to you at all in my post.
I think it's best to get hands-on with top ICMA guys and see what they can or cannot do...to you. Then consider the outcome-and their assessments.
There's been too much BS by internet gadflies.

Last edited by DH : 11-18-2012 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:32 AM   #85
jlb7289
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I would love to meet Joseph Brown, if he is doing any seminars or anything like that in Japan, I would pay if he can help me reach my goals in bodyskill. I mean..if he is really that good. But if Sam Chin or Dan or Ark (all guys who some people say are not doing pure internal) can show me a method to help me reach my above-stated goals in the most efficient manner and can demonstrate those skills in a very high level (and people will say that they do possess those skills in spades), then I will study their methods even if what they do is not classified as "pure neijia" or "pure internal" as some people say.

I guess we are talking at cross-purposes here. In short, if you want to learn a neijia with someone who demonstrates the high potential of the art..go study with CXW or whatever. But if you want to study pure efficient movement like I do, then studying with Sam Chin or Dan or Ark will be good enough for me.
Lorel, I doubt I have anything to teach you, I'm not that good. I'm an amateur. But I make the same distinction you do...there is a difference between neijia masters like CXW, Chen Bing, Li Tai Liang, Chen You Ze, Chen Qinghzhou, and Chen Bing, for example, and other martial artists who may be very efficient and powerful but are NOT neijia masters or practitioners.

Ark is a very powerful martial artist (I've felt him), Chin may be (have only seen Youtube clips). Dan Harden? Haven't seen him, haven't felt him, have only read him over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed. So I have no opinion. But let's say he's powerful. So that makes him internal? Really?

Ashe, I do apologize for mis-spelling the name of your art, I was typing off the top of my head, but let's get it straight, your disdain has less to do with the spelling error and more to do with your taking offense at my assertion that Chin, and his art, are not internal. I don't understand. Wing Chun is a great martial art, so is shotokan, so is kali escrima. They aren't internal martial arts. Do you think wing chun, shotokan, or kali escrima masters would be offended by their arts being described as external? Being external is an insult now? Really?

The neijia family of arts are united by some very specific things, a unique style of movement, Dantien-centered movement. Sigman is doing a service by laying out a detailed argument describing what those arts are about and what jin and qi mean FOR THOSE ARTS. Since I am interested in learning those arts, I focus on them and not on distractions.
JLB
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:34 AM   #86
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

That you could read Dan Harden's posts "over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed..." speaks volumes about what you comprehend and consider to be "internal" or not. Maybe, once again, people here are using the same terms to define very different things. You can't know until you go hands-on. Please just go out and touch hands cordially with these people --- Dan Harden, Sam Chin, et al. You already seem to be forming opinions despite your protestations to the contrary.

"Let's say he's powerful. I'll go feel him and see if that power is coming from internal methods. Really."

There. Fixed.

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
Lorel, I doubt I have anything to teach you, I'm not that good. I'm an amateur. But I make the same distinction you do...there is a difference between neijia masters like CXW, Chen Bing, Li Tai Liang, Chen You Ze, Chen Qinghzhou, and Chen Bing, for example, and other martial artists who may be very efficient and powerful but are NOT neijia masters or practitioners.

Ark is a very powerful martial artist (I've felt him), Chin may be (have only seen Youtube clips). Dan Harden? Haven't seen him, haven't felt him, have only read him over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed. So I have no opinion. But let's say he's powerful. So that makes him internal? Really?

Ashe, I do apologize for mis-spelling the name of your art, I was typing off the top of my head, but let's get it straight, your disdain has less to do with the spelling error and more to do with your taking offense at my assertion that Chin, and his art, are not internal. I don't understand. Wing Chun is a great martial art, so is shotokan, so is kali escrima. They aren't internal martial arts. Do you think wing chun, shotokan, or kali escrima masters would be offended by their arts being described as external? Being external is an insult now? Really?

The neijia family of arts are united by some very specific things, a unique style of movement, Dantien-centered movement. Sigman is doing a service by laying out a detailed argument describing what those arts are about and what jin and qi mean FOR THOSE ARTS. Since I am interested in learning those arts, I focus on them and not on distractions.
JLB
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:30 AM   #87
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
That's cool. I have met Rob too, I dont see him chiming in to say anything about him and Akuzawa sensei being "pure internal" or even being the slightest insecure about this. And yeah, i think all of the above mentioned are great martial artists and fine teachers.

Its like if you're a photographer or a programmer or some other kind of professional, you dont go and say all authors in the field are the same, and you dont say I will only read from this author and no one else. And you certainly wouldnt settle to study from one book alone, and never invest in your learning from as many sources as you can. Is this a competition for exclusive teaching rights in some way? Why?
For me, no, because I am not a teacher on the circuit. All I know there are people out there who claim to be teaching aiki but at the same time claiming that what others do is not "neijia" or that some are not using pure jin or pure suit or whatever. It would be hard to admit there is a bit of discrediting going on.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:45 AM   #88
jlb7289
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Cady,

What if my standards are high? What if it's the case that because I really want to learn internal power I focus on people who are KNOWN internal masters, CXW, Chen Bing, Chen You Ze, Chen Qingzhou, Li Tai Liang, for example (I've seen all except CXW) rather than others who may or may not be internal but whose posts don't make sense to me given what I know of internal power?

And you again seem to take offense at a simple statement from my observations. You may be right, maybe I'm being too dismissive...but let me tell you a little story. Within about six months, maybe more than twelve years ago, I first saw chenstyle master Chen Qingzhou and xinyi master Li Tai Liang. I first saw Chen in Golden Gate Park. The first words (translated) out of his mouth were that the taiji was about the Dantien powering movement. He said Westerners seemed to think the Dantien was this mystical energy thing but that in fact for martial arts it was a real physical thing. And then he showed us...he let us feel his Dantien while he issued power. Months later Li does a workshop in Seattle and I attend. He tells a wild story about the mystical aspects of qi. Then he says, if you want to use qi in martial arts its about certain physical training. And he shows us and we spend the morning doing squatting monkey, training the Dantien (store and release, store and release).

What struck me was that the styles they practice look different, but what powers movements in each style is the Dantien. You try to figure out what internal power is about by focusing on unambiguously skilled practitioners of the neijia and there is less room for confusion or distraction. Anybody else, you're taking chances.

JLB

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
That you could read Dan Harden's posts "over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed..." speaks volumes about what you comprehend and consider to be "internal" or not. Maybe, once again, people here are using the same terms to define very different things. You can't know until you go hands-on. Please just go out and touch hands cordially with these people --- Dan Harden, Sam Chin, et al. You already seem to be forming opinions despite your protestations to the contrary.

"Let's say he's powerful. I'll go feel him and see if that power is coming from internal methods. Really."

There. Fixed.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:48 AM   #89
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
Lorel, I doubt I have anything to teach you, I'm not that good. I'm an amateur. But I make the same distinction you do...there is a difference between neijia masters like CXW, Chen Bing, Li Tai Liang, Chen You Ze, Chen Qinghzhou, and Chen Bing, for example, and other martial artists who may be very efficient and powerful but are NOT neijia masters or practitioners.

Ark is a very powerful martial artist (I've felt him), Chin may be (have only seen Youtube clips). Dan Harden? Haven't seen him, haven't felt him, have only read him over the years and not been able to make ANY sense of the many different things he has said and claimed. So I have no opinion. But let's say he's powerful. So that makes him internal? Really?

Ashe, I do apologize for mis-spelling the name of your art, I was typing off the top of my head, but let's get it straight, your disdain has less to do with the spelling error and more to do with your taking offense at my assertion that Chin, and his art, are not internal. I don't understand. Wing Chun is a great martial art, so is shotokan, so is kali escrima. They aren't internal martial arts. Do you think wing chun, shotokan, or kali escrima masters would be offended by their arts being described as external? Being external is an insult now? Really?

The neijia family of arts are united by some very specific things, a unique style of movement, Dantien-centered movement. Sigman is doing a service by laying out a detailed argument describing what those arts are about and what jin and qi mean FOR THOSE ARTS. Since I am interested in learning those arts, I focus on them and not on distractions.
JLB
Hi Joseph,

First of all, I am not making any distinctions. The truth is I don't really know if what Dan or Ark or Sam do is fully internal. I am just suggesting that if their methods produce relaxed bodies that create kuzushi on contact, non-telegraphed strikes etc., then I will study their methods even if their systems are not classified as "internal" by some people.

Some questions now:

Why would you train a pure neijia? What is the disadvantage of learning something that is not fully neijia? Are the qualities of kuzushi on contact, technique arising naturally from a dantien-powered movement, non-telegraphed strikes, and powerful strikes with no wind-up characteristics of a neijia arts? If so, does this suggest that those qualities are watered down in systems that are not considered "neijia" in your eyes? If not, what is it about neijia that sets it apart from other arts that are not neijia? What besides those martial qualities I described above does neijia offer that pure non-neijia arts don't? How do you known that what Sam, Ark, or Dan does not offer what pure neijia offers and how do you judge this? What is about a neijia that makes you want to focus on it and not on the distractions?

Looking forward to hearing your answers.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:58 AM   #90
Chris Li
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
Cady,

What if my standards are high? What if it's the case that because I really want to learn internal power I focus on people who are KNOWN internal masters, CXW, Chen Bing, Chen You Ze, Chen Qingzhou, Li Tai Liang, for example (I've seen all except CXW) rather than others who may or may not be internal but whose posts don't make sense to me given what I know of internal power?

And you again seem to take offense at a simple statement from my observations. You may be right, maybe I'm being too dismissive...but let me tell you a little story. Within about six months, maybe more than twelve years ago, I first saw chenstyle master Chen Qingzhou and xinyi master Li Tai Liang. I first saw Chen in Golden Gate Park. The first words (translated) out of his mouth were that the taiji was about the Dantien powering movement. He said Westerners seemed to think the Dantien was this mystical energy thing but that in fact for martial arts it was a real physical thing. And then he showed us...he let us feel his Dantien while he issued power. Months later Li does a workshop in Seattle and I attend. He tells a wild story about the mystical aspects of qi. Then he says, if you want to use qi in martial arts its about certain physical training. And he shows us and we spend the morning doing squatting monkey, training the Dantien (store and release, store and release).

What struck me was that the styles they practice look different, but what powers movements in each style is the Dantien. You try to figure out what internal power is about by focusing on unambiguously skilled practitioners of the neijia and there is less room for confusion or distraction. Anybody else, you're taking chances.

JLB
Well, that's basically the lineage argument. There's nothing wrong with it, and it's often valid - but lineage alone is not always a reliable indicator. I'm sure that you'd agree that there are plenty of Chen people who aren't worth training with.

Also, there are other lineages - and if you haven't trained with them then you don't know what they can or can't do. Nobody's forcing anybody to try something if they're not interested, but I think that some people are saying that if you want to talk about what someone is doing beyond a certain point than you have to get some hands on time.

If people were talking about CXW, but there were no books and no videos, and they have never touched him or anybody in his lineage - then you'd probably recommend that they get some hands on time too. That's all.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-18-2012, 11:06 AM   #91
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Joseph,
I don't take offense at anything, as I have no dog in this fight, I just train aiki and IP. If you're happy with what you're doing, that's great, but IMO it pays to get out there more and see what's outside our individual boxes. Especially before making any pronouncements about who were think "has" or "has not."
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:27 AM   #92
jlb7289
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

No, it's not a lineage argument. It's an authenticity argument. There are lineage holders who are not skilled practitioners. But the artists I mentioned are widely known and respected. Let's be clear, if a guy in your neighborhood says he learned bagua in a dream (or learned it from an old Chinese guy in the 50s...hello John Painter) and says he'll show you, and it seems he is a good martial artist and has some power, then it's clear he's a good martial artist. It doesn't mean his bagua is real bagua and is internally powered.

Not a lineage argument. Call me crazy, but when I want to study the neijia I tend to want to learn from people who actually study neijia, not study DR (which is not known to be internal), white crane (which is not known to be internal), or who knows what else.

JLB

PS Cady, I will not stand for your mis-characterizing what I wrote. I specifically did NOT make any claims about Dan Harden's ability. I wrote about my reading of his posts. Period. Don't start trouble by reading more into it than is warranted.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, that's basically the lineage argument. There's nothing wrong with it, and it's often valid - but lineage alone is not always a reliable indicator. I'm sure that you'd agree that there are plenty of Chen people who aren't worth training with.

Also, there are other lineages - and if you haven't trained with them then you don't know what they can or can't do. Nobody's forcing anybody to try something if they're not interested, but I think that some people are saying that if you want to talk about what someone is doing beyond a certain point than you have to get some hands on time.

If people were talking about CXW, but there were no books and no videos, and they have never touched him or anybody in his lineage - then you'd probably recommend that they get some hands on time too. That's all.

Best,

Chris
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:20 PM   #93
ashe
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
Ashe, I do apologize for mis-spelling the name of your art, I was typing off the top of my head, but let's get it straight, your disdain has less to do with the spelling error and more to do with your taking offense at my assertion that Chin, and his art, are not internal. I don't understand. Wing Chun is a great martial art, so is shotokan, so is kali escrima. They aren't internal martial arts. Do you think wing chun, shotokan, or kali escrima masters would be offended by their arts being described as external? Being external is an insult now? Really?
my issue is, your making bold statements about what something is, or is not, with out having any direct experience of that thing. when my 11 year old does that i call her out for talking straight out of her @$$.

i had followed this topic anonymously until you threw out my Sifu's name with no experience of ILC, which is not something I'm prepared to let slide without calling you on it.

personally i couldn't care whether what I do is internal enough or not for the lineage queens. i make no distinction about "internal" or "external". tai chi is not yin or yang, it's yin/yang together. the point for me is, touch hands first, talk after.

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Old 11-18-2012, 01:48 PM   #94
jlb7289
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

If you don't care whether what you do is internal or external then it certainly begs the question why you take issue with someone saying your master has some power but isn't apparently internal. Makes no sense unless you feel what he is doing is internal...or feel that if it's not that's a bad thing.

And it's not talking straight out of one's ass when one notes the limitations of what one is saying, given observations just on Youtube, as I did. My statement wasn't bold, it was a considered judgment based on my familiarity with internal martial arts (and some external ones too). I may very well be wrong...ahh, hell, no I'm not!

JLB

Quote:
Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
my issue is, your making bold statements about what something is, or is not, with out having any direct experience of that thing. when my 11 year old does that i call her out for talking straight out of her @$$.

i had followed this topic anonymously until you threw out my Sifu's name with no experience of ILC, which is not something I'm prepared to let slide without calling you on it.

personally i couldn't care whether what I do is internal enough or not for the lineage queens. i make no distinction about "internal" or "external". tai chi is not yin or yang, it's yin/yang together. the point for me is, touch hands first, talk after.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:03 PM   #95
ashe
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
I may very well be wrong...ahh, hell, no I'm not!

JLB
lolz. what makes me laugh is people who make claims like "that's not internal" but can't themselves definitively define what "internal" is, mostly because they themselves don't understand in the least, but also because this type of power and skill is not just he result of one thing (i.e. dan tien), but the culmination / relationship between all the parts, like dan tien, ming men, huan yuan "energy", peng "energy", spiral force and tai chi and so on.

i thought Lorel said it quite well -
Quote:
I am just suggesting that if their methods produce relaxed bodies that create kuzushi on contact, non-telegraphed strikes etc., then I will study their methods even if their systems are not classified as "internal" by some people
quite right.

if somebody comes to see me and i can take their center from first contact (and i generally can), then we have nothing else to talk about. if they really understand what "using the dan tien" means, then i wouldn't be able to capture them so easily.

Last edited by ashe : 11-18-2012 at 02:17 PM.

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Old 11-18-2012, 03:52 PM   #96
Eric Joyce
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
if somebody comes to see me and i can take their center from first contact (and i generally can), then we have nothing else to talk about. if they really understand what "using the dan tien" means, then i wouldn't be able to capture them so easily.
For the record, I was one of those guys Internal or external? Who cares...I touched hands with Ashe and I was impressed.

Eric Joyce
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:03 PM   #97
Chris Li
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
No, it's not a lineage argument. It's an authenticity argument. There are lineage holders who are not skilled practitioners. But the artists I mentioned are widely known and respected. Let's be clear, if a guy in your neighborhood says he learned bagua in a dream (or learned it from an old Chinese guy in the 50s...hello John Painter) and says he'll show you, and it seems he is a good martial artist and has some power, then it's clear he's a good martial artist. It doesn't mean his bagua is real bagua and is internally powered.

Not a lineage argument. Call me crazy, but when I want to study the neijia I tend to want to learn from people who actually study neijia, not study DR (which is not known to be internal), white crane (which is not known to be internal), or who knows what else.

JLB

PS Cady, I will not stand for your mis-characterizing what I wrote. I specifically did NOT make any claims about Dan Harden's ability. I wrote about my reading of his posts. Period. Don't start trouble by reading more into it than is warranted.
As I said, "basically a lineage argument" - the value of a known quantity. There's nothing wrong with that - except that it assumes that everything's known.

Mike, for example, is always cautious enough to say that he's not really sure how much Ueshiba or the DR guys actually knew (although he has his opinions, of course).

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-18-2012, 08:00 PM   #98
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

I think we're way past discussing whether O Sensei was involved in developing internal strength or not. Or whether it is real or not ( as a group I think). How much , to what degree, in what vein, with what kind of approach, where , when and using which methods; thats a lot harder to quantify. But I think it is also clear that Aikido does not pretend to be Tai Chi or Xingyi.

Reading Ellis's last blog about Akuzawa, does that sound like there is something less awesome or unusual in that kind of power? Even if it is not the same as Chen tai chi?

And, is there anything woowoo being proposed by Internal Strength proponents?

And why dont you find any Chen tai chi people winning MMA? And does Mike Tyson feel left out for not having trained in it?

Last edited by Alfonso : 11-18-2012 at 08:02 PM.

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Old 11-18-2012, 08:03 PM   #99
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Joseph can you answer my questions?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:51 AM   #100
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hello Mark.
I didn't see what Mike was describing in his "teacher test" in that video. If I were to describe what I see in this video, using Aikido speak as our reference, I would say it's an example of a student taking ukemi for his teacher. Would you agree, or not?
I wasn't referencing the "teacher test", but rather the last sentence in your post. Should have made that clearer.

But, back to the video and questions, which I will requote for reference:

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=6zZDtCZVURY

Liu Chengde. Notice how he has one hand up and one hand down? Why? Why do poses of Ueshiba look the same? Takeda, too. What's going on internally? What core internal components are at work here?
Let me reference some of your posts now.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I don't want you to think, and it sounds like from your posts you do, that I don't like Chinese internal marital arts. I do, I have trained seriously in them.
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
To say I have no understanding in this area, is not only insulting, but very untrue. If you would like to talk about Aikido, I have quite a lot of experience. If you would like to talk about competing, and sparring I have done a lot of that too. If you would like to talk about Chinese internal, again I have spent a lot of time doing that with a known authority.

Now if what the "IP" group is doing is not one of those things, then perhaps your right. If this is something you invented and didn't come from Aikido, martial practice, or Chinese internal, you very well could be right. But if you are talking about any of those things above listed, I do have a fair amount of experience with them.
We're talking Chinese internals here. What Sigman posted is one area. What Liu Chengde is showing is another. Back to the questions regarding Liu Chengde:

Notice how he has one hand up and one hand down? Why? Why do poses of Ueshiba look the same? Takeda, too. What's going on internally? What core internal components are at work here?
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