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Old 11-15-2012, 09:03 AM   #51
john.burn
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Stephen Trinkle wrote: View Post
IrecommendBill Gleason Sensei to you and a couple of his senior students!Best!,Steve
I'm more interested in what Mike Sigman has to say and what he can do to be honest with you. His stuff makes the most sense to me.

In terms of Aikido, sorry but no one I've met (and I've met a good few people now) can do what Ikeda sensei does so I'll be sticking with him thanks - I don't see the point in not going straight to the source, he's really very good at explaining what he does now.

Best Regards,
John

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Old 11-15-2012, 09:53 AM   #52
HL1978
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Akuzawa Sensei is actually in france as we speak right now. He is usually there 2x a year with occasional trips to the Netherlands as well.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:27 AM   #53
john.burn
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Akuzawa Sensei is actually in france as we speak right now. He is usually there 2x a year with occasional trips to the Netherlands as well.
Hi Hunter,

Stupid question... but what's the level of the seminar Akuzawa sensei teaches in France? And does he speak English on Seminar's in France?

He's definitely on my list of non-Aikido guys to meet.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:47 PM   #54
HL1978
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Hi Hunter,

Stupid question... but what's the level of the seminar Akuzawa sensei teaches in France? And does he speak English on Seminar's in France?

He's definitely on my list of non-Aikido guys to meet.
Based on what I have seen in the past for seminar announcements, I think he has two separate session types, a more generic open class and a more teacher/experienced class. http://laquetedekiaz.com/2012/02/16/aunkai-tour-2012/ usually has info on upcoming seminars or you can check out the various aunkai facebook pages. I think some of the seminars have had both english and french translators, but if some of the Aunkai students show up, you may have some english speakers. For example, Rob speaks native english, and Manabu and Miyagawa both have pretty good conversational english. So even if they aren't acting as translators, they can help you out.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:23 PM   #55
Howard Popkin
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Chris:

So here's to hoping Howard Popkin makes it out to the left coast one of these days...
May - California
June - Portland
July - California
August - California


Howard Popkin
www.pbjjc.com
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:26 PM   #56
Howard Popkin
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Working on the other coast too, England

Will keep you posted !

Howard Popkin
www.pbjjc.com
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:36 PM   #57
Janet Rosen
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
May - California
June - Portland
July - California
August - California

OOOOH........going to have to carve some dates out and save up sheckels....

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:42 PM   #58
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Hey Howard,
Where are your California seminars at?

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Old 11-15-2012, 05:11 PM   #59
jlb7289
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Chris Hein's thesis is similar to what a yangstyle taijiquan instructor (not master) said to me years ago, he said that taiji masters moved in an optimal way and that great baseball players, great athletes, moved the same way. Internal training was *just* learning to move very efficiently.

Even back then I knew enough, had seen enough, to realize that was bunk. I knew that teacher didn't have anything to share with me, and he would never have anything to share with me.

If there was as much overlap between the two ways of moving, external and internal, then we'd have a LOT more internal martial arts masters than we do. It would mean that almost everybody who trains hard in an external art, especially a soft art, for enough time will have and be able to show internal power. But that isn't the case. What Hein needs to do is explain why we don't have many folks who can demonstrate internal power if training it is so much like training external arts.

One last comment, on Mike's blog. Reading what he is writing and thinking you get it is different from actually getting it, thus the frequent admonition that one should get one's a** out to see folks who can actually show you.

JLB
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:18 PM   #60
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Well, I would say that there are lot's of people capable of demonstrating these things. I've offered to do that myself, but I don't see many criteria being presented to look at.

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Old 11-15-2012, 05:36 PM   #61
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Well, I would say that there are lot's of people capable of demonstrating these things. I've offered to do that myself, but I don't see many criteria being presented to look at.
Sigman's teacher test is a good start...and it's basic...being able to ground a decent push without locking up your shoulder, in other words, with a pretty relaxed frame, is also basic. And we haven't even gotten to seeing whether one's Dantien drives one's movement, a key req for internal arts.

And there aren't lots of people demonstrating these things. There just aren't.

JLB
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:31 AM   #62
sakumeikan
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Hello Joe,
Would Dutch Jinever do?

Have not seen you on this forum for a while. Everything fine?

Tom
Hi Tom.
Hello ,

I have not really seen any articles recently which tickle my fancy.As far as my activities iin Aikido I am just doing my usual couple of classes a week.Hope to attreend a course in the North East , near Durham with Mike Flynn 6th Dan Shihan and Paul goatmn 5th Dan Shidoin.on Dec !st.A basic weapons course.Should be good.
Last course I attended for a couple of days was in Worcester with Chiba Sensei.Hope you are well, Cheers,I will be only too happy to have a Gin.[Dutch or otherwise]
t
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:30 PM   #63
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
Sigman's teacher test is a good start...and it's basic...being able to ground a decent push without locking up your shoulder, in other words, with a pretty relaxed frame, is also basic. And we haven't even gotten to seeing whether one's Dantien drives one's movement, a key req for internal arts.

And there aren't lots of people demonstrating these things. There just aren't.

JLB
Hey Joseph,

Do you know if there is video of people doing the "teacher test" with correct examples? A video of Mike Sigman would of course work best, but I would love to watch video of any teacher who passes the test.

I think things like this that we can all objectively look at, hear explanations as to why it was or wasn't what we are describing. Thanks!

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Old 11-16-2012, 06:25 PM   #64
MM
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hey Joseph,

Do you know if there is video of people doing the "teacher test" with correct examples? A video of Mike Sigman would of course work best, but I would love to watch video of any teacher who passes the test.

I think things like this that we can all objectively look at, hear explanations as to why it was or wasn't what we are describing. Thanks!
Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=6zZDtCZVURY

Liu Chengde. Notice how he has one hand up and one hand down? Why? Why do poses of Ueshiba look the same? Takeda, too. What's going on internally? What core internal components are at work here?
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:36 PM   #65
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Hello Mark.
I didn't see what Mike was describing in his "teacher test" in that video. If I were to describe what I see in this video, using Aikido speak as our reference, I would say it's an example of a student taking ukemi for his teacher. Would you agree, or not?

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Old 11-17-2012, 03:08 AM   #66
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hey Joseph,

Do you know if there is video of people doing the "teacher test" with correct examples? A video of Mike Sigman would of course work best, but I would love to watch video of any teacher who passes the test.

I think things like this that we can all objectively look at, hear explanations as to why it was or wasn't what we are describing. Thanks!
Umm,

I'm not talking about WATCHING video. I'm talking about GOING to see high level teachers. Jeez. If you haven't experienced high level internal arts masters up close then the distinction between what they do and what others do on freakin' Youtube is harder to understand.

Once you have, things get easier. And then you can ask better questions and see more gradations...here's an example, I see what Akuzawa is doing (I've attended three of his workshops, so this is not armchair-observation) as involving some jin and 'suit', but not full-blown internal power or six harmonies movement or what-have-you, and he himself didn't (at least not when I asked him about it three years ago) claim to drive his movement with the Dantien (although he was surely doing so at some points with his downpower stuff, as in shiko...pretty reminiscent of baji). But that IS a defining characteristic of internal power. So Akuzawa has part of the picture, not all.

That's not criticism, it's observation. Another observation...I've seen folks here put I Li Quan with the neijia, I don't get that. I don't know anyone who is serious about internal arts who claims I Li Quan falls clearly into that category. Now, I've not seen that art up close, I've only watched Youtube clips, but given what I have been exposed to, it looks like Sam Chin has *some* jin, but the differenced between him and, well, prominent taiji, bagua, and xingyi practitioners is obvious. Is he a good martial artist? Yeah, he seems to be. But should I be looking to him to understand what internal power is? No, I don't think so. Same thing with Systema. OK, it's soft. That doesn't make it internal. Xingyi is an internal art and it ain't soft.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:45 AM   #67
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
If you haven't experienced high level internal arts masters up close then the distinction between what they do and what others do on freakin' Youtube is harder to understand.
Once you have, things get easier.

I see what Akuzawa is doing (I've attended three of his workshops, ...
Some tme ago I've linked a youtube-video of Bill Gleason in the German forum where I'm very active and people know me.
I've linked it because I was excited seing someone doing things "on youtube" that I got to know during a certain seminar. I saw Gleason do what we were doing in the seminar. I meant do understand what he was teaching. Even if the sound of the video wasn't very good.
I hope, I am not totally wrong with my expertise.

The people at the forum said "This is what we are allready doing." And they explained me what was doing to see in the video. From their view. Without having felt it. And without having been taugth it orally.
I understood their explanations very well: I had done what they described during my own practice. It was extactly what I knew before attending the seminar where I did myself what is to see in the video.
The difference simply had to felt. To be felt by my own body, in my own body.

We only see, what we know. So simpel.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:42 AM   #68
Keith Larman
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
May - California
June - Portland
July - California
August - California

Hey, cool, good to know. Where in California and do you have any approximate dates yet? Still on the bucket list for me...

Keith

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Old 11-17-2012, 02:47 PM   #69
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
...I've seen folks here put I Li Quan with the neijia, I don't get that. I don't know anyone who is serious about internal arts who claims I Li Quan falls clearly into that category. Now, I've not seen that art up close, I've only watched Youtube clips, but given what I have been exposed to, it looks like Sam Chin has *some* jin, but the differenced between him and, well, prominent taiji, bagua, and xingyi practitioners is obvious. Is he a good martial artist? Yeah, he seems to be. But should I be looking to him to understand what internal power is? No, I don't think so.
I shouldn't gossip cause I have no first hand knowledge, but I've heard many 'prominent' taiji, bagua, xingyi practitioners suddenly have their old injuries flare up and need to sit down if Sam asks to touch hands with them.

My abilities in IP/IS are not much to boast about, so my opinion doesn't matter much. I've practiced Chen style taijiquan before. Now I practice ILC and have been to Dan's seminars, so far it's all felt pretty similar to me. The training approach is definitely different. I think if you were completely new to martial arts, then I feel Sam's system is designed to give you the ability to make it streetable quicker. But the whole system from the basic exercises to spinning/sticking hands to 21 Form and Butterfly Form are all neijia orientated. There are quite a few accomplished martial artist's from yang style, chen style taiji, xing yi, etc who've come to ILC and said they've finally got 'it' after meeting Sam. Tournaments such as ICMAC seek Sam for judging and ILC participation. For what its worth...

Ryan Schoelerman

I Liq Chuan Seattle
https://www.facebook.com/SeattleILC
Do not think or judge. Just observe and feel the way things are.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:17 PM   #70
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
I've seen folks here put I Li Quan with the neijia, I don't get that. I don't know anyone who is serious about internal arts who claims I Li Quan falls clearly into that category. Now, I've not seen that art up close, I've only watched Youtube clips, but given what I have been exposed to, it looks like Sam Chin has *some* jin, but the differenced between him and, well, prominent taiji, bagua, and xingyi practitioners is obvious. Is he a good martial artist? Yeah, he seems to be. But should I be looking to him to understand what internal power is? No, I don't think so.
lol. you don't even have enough attention to detail to use the correct spelling, yet we're expected to trust your observation on what is or is not internal.

tiger at the gate
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:30 PM   #71
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
lol. you don't even have enough attention to detail to use the correct spelling, yet we're expected to trust your observation on what is or is not internal.
Hi ashe,
It looks like "The Martial Art of Awareness" could help some people in that respect!
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:35 PM   #72
Chris Li
 
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Joseph Brown wrote: View Post
Another observation...I've seen folks here put I Li Quan with the neijia, I don't get that.
Well, I get it - but that's just my opinion...

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-17-2012, 03:36 PM   #73
Alfonso
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

What a thread topic, try reading all of these articles:

http://mikesigman.blogspot.com/

The parameters for internal strength are discussed there much better than where this is all headed. Anyone with a teacher and a school is going to be miffed by not being acknowledged a having whatever it is. But these blogs have the reasoning laid out, and there is an unavoidable logic to the full body skill.

Dantien driven movement sounds nice and understandable but its a really extreme thing, and people moving like that have a very distinctive quality of movement and similarity of motions.

I have really seen no evidence at all that O Sensei did this, or that DR does it, or that anyone in Aikido does this.

But it is not the only way of using internal strength attributes; there are other ways. What is best? Ask Conan.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:54 PM   #74
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

You know these "hes not internal" type of wars and such can be stopped if people just shut up, be humble, and meet other people to see how truly "1nt3rn4l" they are. Anyone with me?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:09 PM   #75
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
You know these "hes not internal" type of wars and such can be stopped if people just shut up, be humble, and meet other people to see how truly "1nt3rn4l" they are. Anyone with me?
10-04...!!! It's hard for people not to see their teachers as gods...I've yet to meet the perfect martial arist. I have meet and trained with awsome budo men, but none are perfect. Even Ueshiba tripped on his hakama...!!! :0) These men still serve as my motivation.

All The Best,

ChrisW
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