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Old 11-13-2012, 03:44 PM   #26
ChrisMoses
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Chris, along your same line of reasoning, since there are no great aikidoka who dominate the mma arena, it's not really worth putting any effort into either. You've clearly made up your mind, move on and enjoy your training.

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Old 11-13-2012, 04:00 PM   #27
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hey Christian,

That's not true for a number of reasons. Aikido, as a system was not built for the MMA ring. It doesn't work properly, I know from personal experience. Aikido is not a method to develop power, it's a system. "IP" doesn't sound like a martial arts system to me, it sounds like a way to develop power. It also seems like the "IP" crowd is saying that with this unique method of developing power, you should be able to use this power for all kinds of physical activity. Specifically, you should be able to use this power martially.

Now I do agree, if you don't know about competing in MMA, even if you have more power, it's quite possible that the system you study won't work in that arena (MMA). However if you do know a sport method, say kickboxing, and you know IP, you should be able to dominate in that sport using the advantage "IP" affords, if "IP' does offer a unique physical advantage. Further, if "IP" doesn't require muscular ability as modern athletics does, you should be able to compete in physical activity using "IP" long after the normal athletes career would be over.

I offer the same to you, enjoy your training.

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Old 11-14-2012, 05:20 AM   #28
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hey Christian,

That's not true for a number of reasons. Aikido, as a system was not built for the MMA ring. It doesn't work properly, I know from personal experience. Aikido is not a method to develop power, it's a system. "IP" doesn't sound like a martial arts system to me, it sounds like a way to develop power. It also seems like the "IP" crowd is saying that with this unique method of developing power, you should be able to use this power for all kinds of physical activity. Specifically, you should be able to use this power martially.
This depends. Some systems are still built up around it, where this sort of training is what your work on, but you still learn how to kick and punch. Other people have distilled the IS exercises and just work on that on their own . Other places expect that you already know how to kick/punch etc, and then give you this material to work on (sounds a bit more like aikido where a lot of people had other experience before joining Ueshiba's dojo).

I think some of what is needed to develop this sort of power is still in aikido, if done with IS. Though you would have to organize the class so that more time is spend on solo work (or doing suburi or spear/jo thrusts), then some portion of the class is spent on partner work, at least initially or for newer students.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:20 PM   #29
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hey Hunter,

I think a lot of what one finds in Chinese internal is also inherently built into Aikido training. When I went to study with a Chinese internal teacher, one of the first things he said to me was, "good, you already move about right." When I asked him what he meant, he said that my use of posture and organization of the body was already pretty decent. He also told me that a lot of Aikido guys seemed to be that way. Proper use of the body is universal, so it's no mystery that different groups all working with the same machine would come up with very similar answers.

Another question I wanted to ask, how does "IP" effect the ability to jump? Can learning "IP" improve jumping ability?

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Old 11-14-2012, 07:37 PM   #30
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Another question I wanted to ask, how does "IP" effect the ability to jump? Can learning "IP" improve jumping ability?
I quite honestly can't give you a "correct" answer, since by and large you don't want to push off the ground with IS and its not something I have trained in particular. That being said, you can slam the dantien off the ground to bounce your weight to power a strike, but I've never seen anyone use a "bounce" jin to dunk a basketball.

Likewise through breath training, you can figure out how to do leg presses via breath power as a conditioning exercise. I'm speculating that you could do some sort of breath powered jump, but given that I can only do maybe 50-60lbs via a breath powered leg press (I can only leg press 500lbs or so last time I tried without using IS), so I lack the skill/conditioning to power a jump without using the leg muscles.

Now I do know people on the IS seminar circuit who can do breath powered leg presses of a couple hundred kilograms, so I'm guessing they might be able to use that to jump. At the very least, I think it would help because your gain more sensitivity of the legs, hips, lower core and development of those muscles which could be used to power a jump , but I have no evidence to offer. Its not a demo I've seen online or at a seminar.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:34 PM   #31
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

How can you tell if it's a "breath powered leg press" or a non breath powered one? I mean for yourself you can tell, by feeling your body ( I would assume ) But if someone else were doing a breath powered leg press, how could you tell?

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Old 11-15-2012, 05:38 AM   #32
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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How can you tell if it's a "breath powered leg press" or a non breath powered one? I mean for yourself you can tell, by feeling your body ( I would assume ) But if someone else were doing a breath powered leg press, how could you tell?
Well for yourself its pretty easy to tell, because you can tell when you push with your legs (as in load the leg muscles and extend by using the legs, I keep the legs totally relaxed as its hard not to continue pushing on out with them) and when you don't push with your legs, but the legs get extending out as a result of the breath. The breath portion has 2 components, one has to do with driving the dantien (Im not going to say more than this as its too difficult to try and explain online) and two has to do with conditioning via breath.

As for being able to tell, you could probably hook them up to a machine detecting electrical impulses and see the leg muscles are contracting or not. Its not going to be super visible unless they have a highly developed dantien.

Like I said in another thread, I think, one of Forrest's stupid jin tricks, is that you should be able to see a movable dantien: a ball of muscle under the skin that can move up/down/left/right. Now sitting here at my desk, and thinking about the angle of the legs on the leg press machine, i think it might be obscured when the legs are close into the body prior to beginning the lift.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:07 AM   #33
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Likewise through breath training, you can figure out how to do leg presses via breath power as a conditioning exercise. I'm speculating that you could do some sort of breath powered jump, but given that I can only do maybe 50-60lbs via a breath powered leg press (I can only leg press 500lbs or so last time I tried without using IS), so I lack the skill/conditioning to power a jump without using the leg muscles.
you meant you haven't done the fighting beautiful women on top of bamboo yet? slacker!

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Old 11-15-2012, 11:13 AM   #34
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Like I said in another thread, I think, one of Forrest's stupid jin tricks, is that you should be able to see a movable dantien: a ball of muscle under the skin that can move up/down/left/right. Now sitting here at my desk, and thinking about the angle of the legs on the leg press machine, i think it might be obscured when the legs are close into the body prior to beginning the lift.
Hey Hunter,
You lost me on the moveable ball of muscle, I'm familiar with the concept of dantien, but not exactly with it being what you described here, I think I'm just not understanding what you mean. If there is a unique ball of muscle, that you can see under the skin, couldn't we just take a quick video of that ball? I really don't think I understand your description.

So, are you saying that the muscles don't contract at all during the leg press? That there is literally no muscle being used to do the work of pressing the leg out?

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Old 11-15-2012, 01:45 PM   #35
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hey Hunter,
You lost me on the moveable ball of muscle, I'm familiar with the concept of dantien, but not exactly with it being what you described here, I think I'm just not understanding what you mean. If there is a unique ball of muscle, that you can see under the skin, couldn't we just take a quick video of that ball? I really don't think I understand your description.

So, are you saying that the muscles don't contract at all during the leg press? That there is literally no muscle being used to do the work of pressing the leg out?
So I think you said you once had access to Forrest Chang's SJT video. He demonstrated something that looks straight out of the movie alien. So in the movie alien, before the alien pops out of the persons chest, you can see its head moving below the skin. Someone with a developed enough dantien will have a ball of muscle that can move around like that. Its not the upper abs, as just about anyone should be able to pulls those around. If its not that conditioned, it won't be as visible.

If you go on kendo-world, you will find discussion ny some 7th dans (I think the guys account name is chidokan) saying they would place their hands on an 8th dan named Iwata (passed away a few years back), and that you would feel his tanden/dantien move around to drive the sword forward and back for cuts, so tanden driven movement is certainly more than just a broad reference to the hara in modern iaido/kendo, even if in my opinion, few if any of the high level kendo/iaido guys I have seen can actually use it.

So when you are at the gym, you can target certain muscles, the leg press is the same way, where one targets the muscles associated in the area of the dantien. I'm not going to be more specific than that per requests, but dantien specific conditioning is well known (conceptually at least) in chinese martial arts. The results of it should be dantien/tanden driven/initiated power.

I'm of the opinion that aiki-ken style suburi, which looks different than typical japanese swordsmanship type suburi was designed to be utilized for dantien driven movement. Much the same for Ueshiba's garden/farmwork and Sagawa's spear thrusts.

Now I do want to say that I don't think everyone who is studying IS is focused on dantien driven movement, and thus there are different levels of purity. Someone who can access a groundpath has a foot in the door into learning IS and arguably could be considered to have some (low level) understanding of it, but they don't have dantien driven movement.

Last edited by HL1978 : 11-15-2012 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:09 PM   #36
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hey Hunter. I have watched the "stupid jin tricks" video, I honestly don't remember him showing his abdomen. Not saying it didn't happen but I don't remember it. Now I really would like to see that video again.

So the "breath powered" leg press is done with muscles, just not the leg muscles, it's done with the "ball of muscle" that is believed to be called the dantien. Is that correct?

If the Dantien is a visible musculature, and that is the source of IP/IS, should we find some videos of this, or if it's not asking too much, couldn't one of the IP experts make a quick video for us now?

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Old 11-15-2012, 02:18 PM   #37
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I did find this video. I don't know if the guys is an "IP" expert or not, maybe someone else knows something about him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL1mAf8_Cq4

Is this the ability to move the Dantien? if so, I would compare this to Rickson Gracie's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB_KRHXU1BA&t=3m39s

If these are comparable things, I don't think Rickson has "IP" (if he does I would love to hear about that). Rickson is very into his body, and using it as efficiently as possible, which includes good core use.

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Old 11-15-2012, 02:26 PM   #38
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Here is a video of a lady talking about Dantien rotation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9d7L...eature=related

I would say her approach and explanation of what is happening is much closer to my understanding of dantien use. Dose this lady have "IP"?

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Old 11-15-2012, 02:39 PM   #39
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

try this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7I0M2fx1c

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Old 11-15-2012, 02:51 PM   #40
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post

If the Dantien is a visible musculature, and that is the source of IP/IS, should we find some videos of this, or if it's not asking too much, couldn't one of the IP experts make a quick video for us now?
No offense Chris, but you say that you've trained extensively with a Chinese internals expert and that you know Chinese internals. I am no expert, but from what I've learned it seems that dantien is a pretty standard and key part of the internal arts. So I'm not sure why you are bothering to ask since you've stated that you know them and really aren't interested anyway.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:00 PM   #41
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Jason,
I'm totally interested, that's why I keep coming back.
The "why would you ask if you already know the answer" is what keeps getting us in trouble. So that's why I'm asking. I would use the word dantien just like I would use the word core, if I were talking about, martial arts.

Hunter is describing something different then I would, so I'm asking. And trying to show video, that compares different things, to clarify. You know, discussion.

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Old 11-15-2012, 03:06 PM   #42
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Ikeda Shihan sounds like fun, I'm going to have to catch one of his seminars. Thanks for the video!

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Old 11-15-2012, 04:57 PM   #43
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

I just stumbled on this video by accident. I've never heard of this instructor and his english is not very good, but I think he does a good job explaining and demonstrating internal martial movement.
He also clearly shows differences between movement in "external" vs "internal" and correct vs incorrect movement from an internal point of view. I think his punch at 23:00 is a good internal type punch (from dantien):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvCgWjDhHH4

I could be mistaken, but to me it looks as if he knows what he's talking about. I think the whole video is worth viewing.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 11-15-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:43 PM   #44
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hey Hunter. I have watched the "stupid jin tricks" video, I honestly don't remember him showing his abdomen. Not saying it didn't happen but I don't remember it. Now I really would like to see that video again.

So the "breath powered" leg press is done with muscles, just not the leg muscles, it's done with the "ball of muscle" that is believed to be called the dantien. Is that correct?

If the Dantien is a visible musculature, and that is the source of IP/IS, should we find some videos of this, or if it's not asking too much, couldn't one of the IP experts make a quick video for us now?
My notes say its SJT 2. Forrest's video and that seminar was a really good intro. I'm not sure if he still does seminars, but I wish I had trained with him, when he lived out in my area, though some of his guys are still around.

Yes, the leg press, or pole shaking or anything else like that is driven by the dantien, and not the legs.

As discussed before on aikiweb, there are similaities between yoga and IS conditioning. That doesn't mean that people who do yoga have IS (and don't really work the dantien), but could probably could pick it up relatively quickly, because the stretches they do, apparently condition the suit (fascia?) in Mike Sigman's model.

When you see videos online for dantien movement, you want to make sure its not the upper abs moving around, and I don't recall it looking like someone sucking in their gut or sticking it out. Apparently one of the reasons you see the chinese guys wearing silk robes, loose clothes etc, is to hide this movement.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:57 PM   #45
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hunter,
Is what Rickson is doing related to what you would call Dantien movement, even if it's not- for lack of a better description, connected up like an IP person would be?

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:59 AM   #46
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I just stumbled on this video by accident. I've never heard of this instructor and his english is not very good, but I think he does a good job explaining and demonstrating internal martial movement.
He also clearly shows differences between movement in "external" vs "internal" and correct vs incorrect movement from an internal point of view. I think his punch at 23:00 is a good internal type punch (from dantien):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvCgWjDhHH4

I could be mistaken, but to me it looks as if he knows what he's talking about. I think the whole video is worth viewing.
Hey Dave,
I just finished the video. Very good. I would use similar descriptions myself. I also believe that this guy is saying that modern athletics is not ignorant of these ways of using the body. Even though in some cases they might organize a bit differently (as per his description of "boxing"). Would you say that he is making similar comments? Would you say he is doing anything outside of the realms of modern athletics? Does this fellow have "IP" (general question to all)?

Great video, I enjoyed watching it!

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:46 AM   #47
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Hey Dave,
I just finished the video. Very good. I would use similar descriptions myself. I also believe that this guy is saying that modern athletics is not ignorant of these ways of using the body. Even though in some cases they might organize a bit differently (as per his description of "boxing"). Would you say that he is making similar comments? Would you say he is doing anything outside of the realms of modern athletics? Does this fellow have "IP" (general question to all)?

Great video, I enjoyed watching it!
Hi Chris,

I'm glad you liked it.

In the beginning I think he is saying that many martial arts and sports rely on explosive power. In the beginning he equates explosive power to fajin (which is literally explosive power, so its not incorrect). I think he does this to involve his audience, which seems to have little experience with internal training. But I also think that during this lesson he tries to make a case that in external arts it originates from a different source and different movement than in internal arts.

I can't really see how much IP he has. What he explains and demonstrates looks good to me, so I think he probably has some IP. But like I said, I could be wrong.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 11-16-2012 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:52 AM   #48
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

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Jason,
I'm totally interested, that's why I keep coming back.
The "why would you ask if you already know the answer" is what keeps getting us in trouble. So that's why I'm asking. I would use the word dantien just like I would use the word core, if I were talking about, martial arts.

Hunter is describing something different then I would, so I'm asking. And trying to show video, that compares different things, to clarify. You know, discussion.
Well, I guess that's my point really. You've said that you know internals, yet your descriptions for most of this stuff differs from those of us who are also into this internal stuff, experts or not. It also seems to differ from what the chinese use themselves. They have a pretty broad vocabulary and they seem to draw a clear line between what is external and what is internal. They don't seem to use the same words for what a linebacker or wrestler would do to resist someones push vs.what CXW was doing in the video that was being discussed recently. I would think that alone would make you less hesitant to hang your hat on your definitions for these things and a little more curious about getting out and feeling what people are talking about. Back when we were both still on Sigman's forum I thought you got out and met some people, but being that you're essentially having the same discussion here, from the same angle, I assume not?
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:51 AM   #49
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

There are many pieces to the puzzle regarding
internal and aiki. Putting it in terms of black or white
is not the best idea. In taiji there is a saying ten years
To get thru the first door.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:04 PM   #50
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Re: Is aiki a clash of forces?

Hey Dave,
I think what he is saying, while he's talking about boxing, is that he believes that Taiji, offers a "heavy" punch, and that modern boxing offers a quicker punch. I believe he goes on to say that, the Taiji punch wouldn't be very good for boxing, because you couldn't punch quick enough using it. And in the boxing match you would just end up getting hit in the face. I could be wrong, of course, but I also think he was showing how the heel being up or down and the way you are connecting with the ground will effect that difference.

I also believe he is saying that dantien means- power zone, or core. And he pointed out what that area was. This is how I would describe it as well. He also talked quite a bit about structure, and how structure plays an important roll in making power.

If your understanding of this is different please share. I like having something that we can all view and talk about. Makes figuring things out much easier.

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