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Old 11-13-2012, 02:04 PM   #26
Alfonso
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

Another modest guy , Tin Tran has put in considerable time and effort in the internal strength department, and is also smarter than your average bear. You could do worse than meet and talk to him (actually you did do worse, you came and talked to me) Tin has a better analytical mind than mine for sure, and since he's not going to bring it up either, a grappler too. Both CK and Tin have posted here before and been ignored off hand, I would like to point that out, maybe a little searching through aikiweb will help you get some more useful information with which to keep on filling out the details about what the fuss is all about.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:38 PM   #27
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

Alfonso,
I don't want you to think, and it sounds like from your posts you do, that I don't like Chinese internal marital arts. I do, I have trained seriously in them. One of my teachers who I hold in great esteem is an internal marital arts expert. I like Chinese internal.

But it's not what people want to make it out to be. It's not going to solve all your martial arts problems. If you want to learn how to use a system, you're going to have to spar and train hard with the system, there is no way around that. The internal model is an interesting one, some people might like using it to describe things, or learn things. However it's not describing you teaching anything that can't be found in modern athletics.

I'm not against Chinese internal, I'm against silly claims.

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:05 PM   #28
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
regardless, this guy stepped up and proved himself. He even fought a pro MMA match and won. Does this mean invincible warrior? No , but it goes to show that marshmallows and butterflies it's not.
Props to him. I hope the guy serves as an example.

From what I remember of his posts here, the guy was nice and sensible. IMO, is the people who seems to act as if they are in a cult the ones that make exchanges about IP/IS almost impossible.

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:10 PM   #29
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Alfonso,
I don't want you to think, and it sounds like from your posts you do, that I don't like Chinese internal marital arts. I do, I have trained seriously in them. One of my teachers who I hold in great esteem is an internal marital arts expert. I like Chinese internal.

But it's not what people want to make it out to be. It's not going to solve all your martial arts problems. If you want to learn how to use a system, you're going to have to spar and train hard with the system, there is no way around that. The internal model is an interesting one, some people might like using it to describe things, or learn things. However it's not describing you teaching anything that can't be found in modern athletics.

I'm not against Chinese internal, I'm against silly claims.
Yeah, I'm trying not to make any.

In any case fun discussion as always. BTW Chris is a really good aikidoka and a really nice guy. Since I'm embarassing people I thought I'd add that.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:14 PM   #30
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post

In any case fun discussion as always. BTW Chris is a really good aikidoka and a really nice guy. Since I'm embarassing people I thought I'd add that.
I'm almost positive that is the only time I've seen something like that in the middle of an IP/IT/IS thread! HA! Thanks.

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:27 PM   #31
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Props to him. I hope the guy serves as an example.

From what I remember of his posts here, the guy was nice and sensible. IMO, is the people who seems to act as if they are in a cult the ones that make exchanges about IP/IS almost impossible.
like Niven said
"There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it."

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:53 PM   #32
Marc Abrams
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Alfonso,
I don't want you to think, and it sounds like from your posts you do, that I don't like Chinese internal marital arts. I do, I have trained seriously in them. One of my teachers who I hold in great esteem is an internal marital arts expert. I like Chinese internal.

But it's not what people want to make it out to be. It's not going to solve all your martial arts problems. If you want to learn how to use a system, you're going to have to spar and train hard with the system, there is no way around that. The internal model is an interesting one, some people might like using it to describe things, or learn things. However it's not describing you teaching anything that can't be found in modern athletics.

I'm not against Chinese internal, I'm against silly claims.
Chris:

With all due respect, you start threads with foregone conclusions, which makes you are doing troll-like in nature. I have learned from, trained with, and taught very high level athletes. What they do, what they learned and what they teach have nothing to do with the IP stuff. Far too many people have tried pointing this out to you. You approach this from a closed-minded perspective. Why don't you just walk away from pretending to explore this arena when you simply refuse to budge from you position of labeling things as "silly claims." Go on training in the manner that you chose in peace and stop trying to instigate things from a closed-minded perspective. You appear to be a far better person than how you are coming across in the threads that you start in regards to IP.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:01 PM   #33
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

Mark,
I just want to talk about what it is you guys are doing. You can train however you like as well. But when we come to a forum, we are here to discuss, not just advertise.

To say I have no understanding in this area, is not only insulting, but very untrue. If you would like to talk about Aikido, I have quite a lot of experience. If you would like to talk about competing, and sparring I have done a lot of that too. If you would like to talk about Chinese internal, again I have spent a lot of time doing that with a known authority.

Now if what the "IP" group is doing is not one of those things, then perhaps your right. If this is something you invented and didn't come from Aikido, martial practice, or Chinese internal, you very well could be right. But if you are talking about any of those things above listed, I do have a fair amount of experience with them.

Now I have not yet met one of your inner circle, you are correct.

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Old 11-13-2012, 05:19 PM   #34
Marc Abrams
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Mark,
I just want to talk about what it is you guys are doing. You can train however you like as well. But when we come to a forum, we are here to discuss, not just advertise.

To say I have no understanding in this area, is not only insulting, but very untrue. If you would like to talk about Aikido, I have quite a lot of experience. If you would like to talk about competing, and sparring I have done a lot of that too. If you would like to talk about Chinese internal, again I have spent a lot of time doing that with a known authority.

Now if what the "IP" group is doing is not one of those things, then perhaps your right. If this is something you invented and didn't come from Aikido, martial practice, or Chinese internal, you very well could be right. But if you are talking about any of those things above listed, I do have a fair amount of experience with them.

Now I have not yet met one of your inner circle, you are correct.
Chris:

I was directly referring to your reference regarding high level athletes and IP. You have made a claim and have even referenced Mr. Sigman as somehow supporting your claim, while others who directly train with him say that this is not what he believes. If you somehow equate IP with high level athletics, then I do believe that you are not there yet to fully understand what you think that you know. I frankly think that it is unfortunate that Mr. Harden will not allow you to attend one of his seminars. That leaves Mr. Sigman and Ark for you to experience (based upon the comments from others). When you actually get some hands on with one of them (hopefully more) you might actually open your mind up rather than looking to support your foregone conclusions. I am not the first person who has said that and certainly am unlikely to be the last. I am not trying to insult you or your experience base. I find you are the person who is pretending to have a discussion and use it as a venue to hold to your conclusions.

As to me, I have invented nothing and do not have some kind of mythical inner circle. I do get my out and explore what is out there. I come into those encounters with some believes that I test out. I have been pleasantly surprised with most of those experiences and they lead me to continue to keep an open mind and train harder. The biggest impediment that prevents a person from learning is what they believe that they already know.

I am sorry if my direct approach comes across as an insult to you. I thought that I made myself clear that I think that you are a good person who is not coming across that way in these threads.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:50 PM   #35
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Marc, (also sorry that I misspelled your name in my first reply)

As far as my conclusions go.
It's like anything else, if someone presents something that doesn't sound correct, you question it. If the answers given sound incorrect, you counter the answer in order to probe more deeply.

I do understand your argument that I haven't "felt" one of the few people who are deemed to have this special ability, that's what I meant by "your inner circle". Now it may have been incorrect for me to say "your inner circle", perhaps "the inner circle" would have been better. But the idea here is, there are only a very limited number of people (you listed only three, but there may be just over 10) that one can "feel" in order to understand this. That is why you claim I can't possibly "get it".

However if what they ("the inner circle") are describing is basically Chinese internal martial arts, I am familiar with that, and have "felt that". Now if they are doing something different then that, maybe you have a point. If it's something very new that this inner circle is doing, something that is not related to Chinese internal, then I'm just going to have to give that a try.

So if it's Chinese internal, let's talk about that, because I've felt it and know about it. If it's something new, something that's not Chinese internal, then I'll have to try that, and I think I'm going to get a couple chances in 2013.

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Old 11-14-2012, 01:15 PM   #36
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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However if what they ("the inner circle") are describing is basically Chinese internal martial arts, I am familiar with that, and have "felt that". Now if they are doing something different then that, maybe you have a point. If it's something very new that this inner circle is doing, something that is not related to Chinese internal, then I'm just going to have to give that a try.

So if it's Chinese internal, let's talk about that, because I've felt it and know about it. If it's something new, something that's not Chinese internal, then I'll have to try that, and I think I'm going to get a couple chances in 2013.
In my understanding, it's not a martial art. It's something that can be felt in some teachers of internal chinese martial arts and in a few teachers who haven't studied internal chinese martial arts at all.

One can be a great martial artist, a great athlete and a great teacher and not have these internal qualities and abilities.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:09 PM   #37
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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In my understanding, it's not a martial art. It's something that can be felt in some teachers of internal chinese martial arts and in a few teachers who haven't studied internal chinese martial arts at all.
I agree, it is not something that is limited to martial arts only. It can be felt with teachers of the Chinese arts and with teachers that have no experience with the Chinese martial arts.
And although I agree that there are not many who can teach it - there are a lot more teachers with these abilities then often is suggested here on this forum.

Quote:
One can be a great martial artist, a great athlete and a great teacher and not have these internal qualities and abilities.
I do not agree at all ! Your statement goes against all Taoist and Buddhist basic ideas.

Tom

Last edited by akiy : 11-15-2012 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tags
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:20 PM   #38
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
One can be a great martial artist, a great athlete and a great teacher and not have these internal qualities and abilities.
I do not agree at all ! Your statement goes against all Taoist and Buddhist basic ideas.
So you agree with Chris that good athletes have these internal qualities and abilities?
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:28 PM   #39
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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So you agree with Chris that good athletes have these internal qualities and abilities?
You went from great athletes to good athletes. Why would you do a thing like that?

If you study Chinese philosophy you will find that having a great skill is related to having a certain attitude, a certain quality that in many aspects is similar to what we would call a gentleman, a scholar, or in general what we would call chivalrous behavior. Your original ki is by nature sort of rough. Through shugyo you polish the ki and it expresses itself by good behavior, a sense for harmony (to name just some of the qualities) and in your particular skill. It does not matter at all what the particular skill is. So if someone specializes in an athletic activity then that can be his shugyo - if he is considered great at it, than his ki must also be very finely polished. It should show in his behavior and his skill. Your skill could be anything; Aikido, Shodo, Shinto shugyo, etc.

If you look at old athletes that were champions in their time, then you will notice that their stamina and physical strength is no longer the same as it was before. I just read that the Brazilian football player Pele had to go to hospital. He was a great athlete, but it would be unthinkable that he would nowadays manage to play a full match or that he would join a team of pro's in their twenty's. Yet if the task would be; take the ball and try to go passed him, just about everyone will have a hard time doing it. According to Chinese philosophy this is because his ki is still refined and polished. And by the way - Pele is very much a gentleman.
In a similar way you should be able to recognize the polished skills of a ceramist, calligrapher, archer - even if he is aging.

Does this mean that I agree with Chris? Well, I do not know - it seems to me that he is still searching for answers and is trying to come up with the right questions.

What I do see on this forum are many statements that are quite vague about what IP / IS is or how to attain it. Often it is not even clear if with IP / IS is meant ki or something else all together. Fact is that many, if not most of the statements on IP / IS have very little or no relationship to the original Taoist or Buddhist ideas on this subject. No wonder that there is so much confusion.
At the same time I also sense a certain reluctance to answer Chris' questions. The much heard remark "It has to be felt", although I agree with it in principle, is starting to sound like a cop out and an argumentum ad nauseam. Besides, if it is about ki, then it is not so much about feeling at all.
More importantly, in the passed 2500 years there have been so many books written adding more and more knowledge over the centuries, that it is odd to see the people who claim the most experience in this, be so reluctant to share their knowledge about IP /IS in this thread. It does not seem gentleman-like behavior that should come with true shugyo.

Tom
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:14 PM   #40
gregstec
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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What I do see on this forum are many statements that are quite vague about what IP / IS is or how to attain it.....

Tom
OK, fair enough, I am going to throw this out for what it's worth - it is my view on things and not necessarily how others that are studying IP/IS look at things.

I like to look at it this way:

IS - Internal Strength or Internal Skill? I think both terms can be used when discussing what we are doing - so, I think I will differentiate by IStr for strength and ISkl for skill.
ISkl - I see internal skill simply as a label depicting some level of Internal strength and/or power.
IStr - I see internal strength as a quantified capacity of a potential internal force; i.e. How strong are you, etc.

IP - I see internal power as a quality of use of an internal strength force. As in the formula Power = force (strength) times acceleration (speed) in other words, a less strong but faster person can delivery more power than a slow strong person. IMO, there are many forms and levels of IP with Tohie's Ki tests being on a lower level and Takeda's AIKI being on a very high level.

AIKI - as mentioned above, I see AIKI as a high level form of IP - it is the joining of opposing forces (in/yo, yin/yang) within the body to establish internal balance in a static as well as a dynamic state.

In summary, we are working on increasing our ISkl by developing our IStr to be manifested by IP via the AIKI methodology. Simple, right? - let's break it down a little. First we need to develop a body ready for AIKI, we do that by training for internal strength and internal power. These are two different things, and as in the development of external muscle strength and muscle power, there are different activities for each development. In the internal strength model, you need to develop a strong connected body that is instant on with the transmission of energy to all parts all the time; this is where the capability of having one thing moves, all things move comes from. The solo exercises we do for this are the ones that get our fascia, ligaments, and tendons more engaged and moving together. Next we need to develop internal power so you can do something with the internal strength/force - as mentioned, power is a quality that utilizes the strength/force; where the most prevalent quality is acceleration/speed. This is where the exercises we do that focus on flexibility and range of movement come in. Then, we take that AIKI ready body and apply the attributes of the AIKI model to direct the internal activities required for the use and manifestation of soft power.

Anyway, just the way I like to categorize the various aspects of what we are doing and bring them all together to provide the functions we are trying to accomplish - of course, other views may be different.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 11-14-2012 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:25 PM   #41
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
You went from great athletes to good athletes. Why would you do a thing like that?
I see your point. I didn't notice that I changed the qualification.
But to me it's a matter of degree from good to great. I mean, if a great athlete would have great IP, a good athlete would have good IP.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
If you study Chinese philosophy you will find that having a great skill is related to having a certain attitude, a certain quality that in many aspects is similar to what we would call a gentleman, a scholar, or in general what we would call chivalrous behavior. Your original ki is by nature sort of rough. Through shugyo you polish the ki and it expresses itself by good behavior, a sense for harmony (to name just some of the qualities) and in your particular skill. It does not matter at all what the particular skill is. So if someone specializes in an athletic activity then that can be his shugyo - if he is considered great at it, than his ki must also be very finely polished. It should show in his behavior and his skill. Your skill could be anything; Aikido, Shodo, Shinto shugyo, etc.

If you look at old athletes that were champions in their time, then you will notice that their stamina and physical strength is no longer the same as it was before. I just read that the Brazilian football player Pele had to go to hospital. He was a great athlete, but it would be unthinkable that he would nowadays manage to play a full match or that he would join a team of pro's in their twenty's. Yet if the task would be; take the ball and try to go passed him, just about everyone will have a hard time doing it. According to Chinese philosophy this is because his ki is still refined and polished. And by the way - Pele is very much a gentleman.
In a similar way you should be able to recognize the polished skills of a ceramist, calligrapher, archer - even if he is aging.

Does this mean that I agree with Chris? Well, I do not know - it seems to me that he is still searching for answers and is trying to come up with the right questions.

What I do see on this forum are many statements that are quite vague about what IP / IS is or how to attain it. Often it is not even clear if with IP / IS is meant ki or something else all together. Fact is that many, if not most of the statements on IP / IS have very little or no relationship to the original Taoist or Buddhist ideas on this subject. No wonder that there is so much confusion.
At the same time I also sense a certain reluctance to answer Chris' questions. The much heard remark "It has to be felt", although I agree with it in principle, is starting to sound like a cop out and an argumentum ad nauseam. Besides, if it is about ki, then it is not so much about feeling at all.
More importantly, in the passed 2500 years there have been so many books written adding more and more knowledge over the centuries, that it is odd to see the people who claim the most experience in this, be so reluctant to share their knowledge about IP /IS in this thread. It does not seem gentleman-like behavior that should come with true shugyo.

Tom
I think the IP / IS of this thread would be called neijin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijing) in chinese martial arts. Which to me seems a more specific concept than the Taoist or Buddhist qualities you are referring to. So I don't think that talking about these more general qualities will reduce the confusion about the more specific topic of neijin. In my opinion neijin has little to do with refined craftmanship and charismatic virtue.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:54 PM   #42
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
What I do see on this forum are many statements that are quite vague about what IP / IS is or how to attain it. Often it is not even clear if with IP / IS is meant ki or something else all together. Fact is that many, if not most of the statements on IP / IS have very little or no relationship to the original Taoist or Buddhist ideas on this subject. No wonder that there is so much confusion.
At the same time I also sense a certain reluctance to answer Chris' questions. The much heard remark "It has to be felt", although I agree with it in principle, is starting to sound like a cop out and an argumentum ad nauseam. Besides, if it is about ki, then it is not so much about feeling at all.
More importantly, in the passed 2500 years there have been so many books written adding more and more knowledge over the centuries, that it is odd to see the people who claim the most experience in this, be so reluctant to share their knowledge about IP /IS in this thread. It does not seem gentleman-like behavior that should come with true shugyo.

Tom
tom have you a chance to look back at some discussion on IP/IS stuffs? first and foremost, IP/IS that we are talking about here isn't a spiritual thing or an attitude thing. It's a body, physical skill thing. since it's a physical skill thing, we would prefer the IHTBF approach first to put folks on the same sort of understanding, before intellectual discussion needs to happen. we have discussed with chris about this last year too. same thing happened. he insisted that he know what IP/IS is and that modern atheletic approaches can be better. we said that his knowledge of IP/Is isn't the same as various folks and we also know what atheletics are about, because we aren't some backass country folks who lived in the wood somewhere in timbuktu. also, we have many folks, i do mean many with lots of experience (again we aren't some country pumpkin who didn't know which end are the head and which are the ass), who went out of their comfort zone and challenged their beliefs, and came to similar conclusion. when a bunch of folks, not one, not two, but quite a few, and many have lots of experiences, said the same thing, you might want to stop and pay attention and learn to listen. when folks kept on arguing, then they get ignore, at least by me. when they stop and went out and experienced first hand, then we have some common ground to start a discussion. even the folks who do IP/IS argued among ourselves, but the arguments weren't about IP/IS, but mostly on the how to practice certain things, why we practice a certain way, and so on. why mike sigman focus on certain things? why dan does things differently from different perspective? why ark focus on the frame and does what he does and how does that works? and so on and so forth. we don't argue about IP/IS idea.

btw, i don't know about other folks, but i never claim to be a gentleman. it's actually the opposite. i kinda prefer the barbarian meself, since the blood of genghis khan flow in me somewhere. every now and then i have the urge to take my horde (two boys) on a plunder and pillage trip to the local grocery. and every time my wife would yell at me to get eggs, milk and bread. i don't understand it. what can you do with eggs, milk and bread? ok, maybe french toasts.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:45 PM   #43
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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And although I agree that there are not many who can teach it - there are a lot more teachers with these abilities then often is suggested here on this forum.
I think that many here would agree with this statement, but some teachers will focus more on it than others. Some may have the knowledge, but spend more time on applications, or teaching forms, than explicitly teaching how to power those applications or forms, quite simply because thats a lot easier to teach.

To give an example, you don't have to just see Chen Xiao Wang, at a seminar to feel this stuff. Chen Bing and other Chens will show you similiar stuff, they just might not be as "pure" in the motion which isn't a bad thing since they probably know way more than anyone doing this as an amateur. If anyone out there goes to a Chen tai chi seminar, go to one on silk reeling, not the forms based ones, unless you are more concerned with choreography.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:20 PM   #44
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I see your point. I didn't notice that I changed the qualification.
But to me it's a matter of degree from good to great. I mean, if a great athlete would have great IP, a good athlete would have good IP.

Quote:
I think the IP / IS of this thread would be called neijin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijing) in chinese martial arts. Which to me seems a more specific concept than the Taoist or Buddhist qualities you are referring to. So I don't think that talking about these more general qualities will reduce the confusion about the more specific topic of neijin. In my opinion neijin has little to do with refined craftmanship and charismatic virtue.
Well, it is always nice to have an opinion.
Ever read Plato's view on this?

The choice here is
1. to see IP / IS as a specific way of training that has no relationship with Taoist martial arts like T'ai Chi Chuan or that at most uses a part of it, like a structure to get the notion of IP / IS across.
I have no problem with this whatsoever - but it does raises questions on what the nature of this IP / IS is. The answer "it has to be felt" has no scientific value whatsoever. Someone must be able to show some scientific equation or some theory with empirical evidence. Otherwise IP / IS might just well be something like phlogiston or a new sort of Mesmerism.

Without a basic theory of what IP / IS is I find it presumptuous to equate IP / IS with Aiki.

2. IP /IS is the same as neijin. Neijin is a Taoist concept. With it comes the whole Chinese Taoist philosophy - if you want to understand neijin, then you will have to get some basic understanding of Taoism. It has nothing to do with one's own opinion or preference.
Just to add to this; Buddhism has criticized this Taoist concept, so to get a more complete understanding it would help if you also get a basic understanding of Buddhism.

If we are talking about Neijin then the concept is fairly easy to understand as there is a solid theory that we can refer to. And any discussion about neijin should therefor offer no problem.

Tom
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:23 PM   #45
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I think that many here would agree with this statement, but some teachers will focus more on it than others. Some may have the knowledge, but spend more time on applications, or teaching forms, than explicitly teaching how to power those applications or forms, quite simply because thats a lot easier to teach.

To give an example, you don't have to just see Chen Xiao Wang, at a seminar to feel this stuff. Chen Bing and other Chens will show you similiar stuff, they just might not be as "pure" in the motion which isn't a bad thing since they probably know way more than anyone doing this as an amateur. If anyone out there goes to a Chen tai chi seminar, go to one on silk reeling, not the forms based ones, unless you are more concerned with choreography.
Sure, I am fine with this.

I will even go further - I know of some who understand it but refuse to teach it.

Tom
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:44 PM   #46
Chris Li
 
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Sure, I am fine with this.

I will even go further - I know of some who understand it but refuse to teach it.

Tom
Sure, ever heard of Sokaku Takeda?

Anyway, there have been quite a few definitions of IP/IS over the years, if you search through the forums. There's also a pretty good summary at http://www.internalartsinternational...-internal-art/

For "It has to be felt" - well, it's pretty had to teach anything in a detailed manner by correspondance - try doing it with conventional Aikido and you run into the same problems. The more subtle and complex the skill the harder it is.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-15-2012, 01:19 PM   #47
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
tom have you a chance to look back at some discussion on IP/IS stuffs? first and foremost, IP/IS that we are talking about here isn't a spiritual thing or an attitude thing. It's a body, physical skill thing. since it's a physical skill thing, we would prefer the IHTBF approach first to put folks on the same sort of understanding, before intellectual discussion needs to happen. we have discussed with chris about this last year too. same thing happened. he insisted that he know what IP/IS is and that modern atheletic approaches can be better. we said that his knowledge of IP/Is isn't the same as various folks and we also know what atheletics are about, because we aren't some backass country folks who lived in the wood somewhere in timbuktu. also, we have many folks, i do mean many with lots of experience (again we aren't some country pumpkin who didn't know which end are the head and which are the ass), who went out of their comfort zone and challenged their beliefs, and came to similar conclusion. when a bunch of folks, not one, not two, but quite a few, and many have lots of experiences, said the same thing, you might want to stop and pay attention and learn to listen. when folks kept on arguing, then they get ignore, at least by me. when they stop and went out and experienced first hand, then we have some common ground to start a discussion. even the folks who do IP/IS argued among ourselves, but the arguments weren't about IP/IS, but mostly on the how to practice certain things, why we practice a certain way, and so on. why mike sigman focus on certain things? why dan does things differently from different perspective? why ark focus on the frame and does what he does and how does that works? and so on and so forth. we don't argue about IP/IS idea.

btw, i don't know about other folks, but i never claim to be a gentleman. it's actually the opposite. i kinda prefer the barbarian meself, since the blood of genghis khan flow in me somewhere. every now and then i have the urge to take my horde (two boys) on a plunder and pillage trip to the local grocery. and every time my wife would yell at me to get eggs, milk and bread. i don't understand it. what can you do with eggs, milk and bread? ok, maybe french toasts.
Phi,
When you say that IP / IS is only a body, physical thing you do realize that you are getting your feet into a Cartesian mudpool ? Modern top-athletes are moving away from this kind of thinking. And so are surgeons and biologists. The human body is not a machine. You cannot separate the body from the mind / spirit. Science has moved on since Descartes.

I get your frustration - but don't you think that others on this same forum are just as frustrated with IP /IS proponents as they make a lot of claims without being able to back it up with anything else but "it has to be felt" ? Or how about the IS / IP proponents that dismiss almost every teacher in the world because they do not have it or show it? Names have been mentioned or hinted at that had a major influence on the spreading of Aikido - but now we are suppose to accept that they did not understand it or did not even learn anything from the founder? And this comes from people who have never seen or met the founder, let alone train with him ! How frustrating do you think that is?
I could easily go on and on about the frustrations that are at times - but too often - created by the IP / IS proponents. It drives good people away from what otherwise could be an interesting topic to discuss.

And I think it is possible to discuss IS / IP. Unless IP /IS is something from a sci-fi novel. But if it is human, then it should be possible for other humans to recognize it from their own experiences. They may not fully understand it, but they may have gotten a glimpse of it. As an Aikido teacher I find it important that when this happens I assure my students that they indeed got a glimpse of or even more. I do not understand why IS / IP proponents then on this forum tell people they understand nothing and that the IP / IS proponents are the only ones with expertise. It is cult-like behavior.

It is not about claiming to be a gentleman - it comes with the suit.

Btw, Gengis Khan stayed in his cozy tent with a bunch of half dressed ladies while his men were doing all the bloody work. I on the other hand have the blood of Grutte Pier running through my veins - now that was a warrior!

All the best,

Tom
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:45 PM   #48
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I get your frustration - but don't you think that others on this same forum are just as frustrated with IP /IS proponents as they make a lot of claims without being able to back it up with anything else but "it has to be felt" ? Or how about the IS / IP proponents that dismiss almost every teacher in the world because they do not have it or show it? Names have been mentioned or hinted at that had a major influence on the spreading of Aikido - but now we are suppose to accept that they did not understand it or did not even learn anything from the founder? And this comes from people who have never seen or met the founder, let alone train with him ! How frustrating do you think that is?
I could easily go on and on about the frustrations that are at times - but too often - created by the IP / IS proponents. It drives good people away from what otherwise could be an interesting topic to discuss.
I, for one, have never made a comment about anyone specific "not having it", as for general comments - well, I've felt almost all of the major players.

I've spoken to many, many students of the founder who stated themselves in no uncertain terms that they didn't understand what was going on or how the founder did what he did, take that as you will. It's also documented in many public written interviews.

I know that it's frusturating, but a large part of the discussion, like Stan Pranin's Iwama discussion, is predicated on the argument that something went wrong in the transmission. Agree or not, it's hard to deny the fact that a strong argument for that can and has been made - Stan Pranin's body of work alone supports it.

Frustrated because someone hasn't met the founder? Sounds like you're making a "it has to be felt" argument to me.

Of course, the people becoming "frustrated" haven't met or trained with the founder either, so they have no more basis for their opinion than anybody else, if you follow that argument.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-15-2012, 01:55 PM   #49
phitruong
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Phi,
When you say that IP / IS is only a body, physical thing you do realize that you are getting your feet into a Cartesian mudpool ? Modern top-athletes are moving away from this kind of thinking. And so are surgeons and biologists. The human body is not a machine. You cannot separate the body from the mind / spirit. Science has moved on since Descartes.

Tom
tom, may i direct you to this thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21943 please read through the posts then we can continue to discuss. btw, i had my hands on Saotome sensei and took ukemi. i had more frame of reference than you think. other folks, proponents of IP/IS, have similar experiences with various high level (as in Ueshiba Sr uchideshi) aikido teachers and other martial arts. their combined experiences are staggering. as i said before, when a bunch of very experienced folks said the same thing, there might be some truth in it, at least one should pause and ponder.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:45 PM   #50
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Requirements to demonstrate "IP"?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Sure, ever heard of Sokaku Takeda?

Quote:
Anyway, there have been quite a few definitions of IP/IS over the years, if you search through the forums. There's also a pretty good summary at http://www.internalartsinternational...-internal-art/

For "It has to be felt" - well, it's pretty had to teach anything in a detailed manner by correspondance - try doing it with conventional Aikido and you run into the same problems. The more subtle and complex the skill the harder it is.
Best,

Chris
Well, there is a contradiction for you. The link that you gave here leads to an excellent introduction of the inner arts. Several of the important concepts are mentioned and even a bit explained.

So it proves my point - it can be discussed.
It can also be described, just as we can describe just about anything in this world.

It proves another point - several proponents of IP / IS do not seem to know these basic concepts (as mentioned on the website) or are even against it. Some have even expressed this clearly in this very thread. At the same time they claim knowledge that nobody else has. That is a contradiction too.

If someone does not understand these basic concepts then a more modest attitude would be more fitting.

Tom
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