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Old 11-12-2012, 04:28 PM   #26
David Orange
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
David,
Working on that now, I understand where you are coming from.
Well, that's good to hear. I can't recount how vividly I dissed Mike Sigman six or seven years ago, and Rob John, too. I told them I could do what they were describing. The "six directions"? I said. That's just the six directions you have to balance to do anything, such as lifting weights or chopping wood. And that was true. But the training is not the same as chopping wood or lifting weights. It actually "tunes" the body to hypersensitivity to the six directions and the result goes far beyond anything I've seen from a weightlifter. And it was far more effective than what I was able to do even after years in Japan.

It is definitely not athletics and nothing in athletics approaches it.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 11-12-2012, 04:33 PM   #27
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
It's like with the CXW video, I agree he's got some real ability showing his stuff there, but that won't make him a better tennis player, and the skills that are universal to his training, and would help him with tennis, are sills that the tennis players are already aware of, and have good methods for practicing.
What I get from the above statement is that you believe there is only one model of human movement, that both CXW and world class tennis players operate within that model and seek to optimize movement within that model.
In my opinion that is not true. There are at least two models of human movement (using very broad strokes here): the modern Western physiology/sports model and the Eastern internal arts one. They are mutually exclusive. Optimizing movement in one model will yield results unattainable in the other and vice versa. Both result in some incredible feats for the untrained person.
You can think of these two models as two mountains. Walking up one of them (i.e. optimizing within that model) means you won't be walking up the other. And that's why people keep saying IP requires a fundamentally different way of movement: because it does.
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:51 PM   #28
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
What I get from the above statement is that you believe there is only one model of human movement, that both CXW and world class tennis players operate within that model and seek to optimize movement within that model.
Not quite, I do think there are many models. But there is only one Machine. Both CXW and world class tennis players use that same machine (the human body).

Quote:
There are at least two models of human movement (using very broad strokes here): the modern Western physiology/sports model and the Eastern internal arts one. They are mutually exclusive. Optimizing movement in one model will yield results unattainable in the other and vice versa. Both result in some incredible feats for the untrained person.
I agree that these models describe things differently. Mutually exclusive, I don't agree with. In Mike's basic outline, even if there is more to it, both models agree on many points. I also disagree that there is a modern "Western physiology/sports model", I think that we are all sharing enough information (nations of the world) that we are getting pretty close to having a very similar model, within professional sports, everywhere in the world. I do agree that there is an Easter internal arts model, it's around a hundred or more years old (depending on who you think constructed that model). But I don't think the Chinese government is using that model to train it's olympic athletes. I think you would find the modern Chinese using a similar model to the one you would see in a modern Western sports facility. So I believe it's a "modern athletic model" and an "older Chinese internal model" we are comparing.

Quote:
You can think of these two models as two mountains. Walking up one of them (i.e. optimizing within that model) means you won't be walking up the other. And that's why people keep saying IP requires a fundamentally different way of movement: because it does.
To me this different way of moving, would require a different machine, but we're all using pretty much the same one.

Thanks!

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Old 11-12-2012, 07:17 PM   #29
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

Chris,

Robert John, could probably comment more since I wasn't there, but I remember a kinesiology prof went to see Ark and was rather impressed. As I recall, he said something along the lines that no one would believe him in terms of what he witnessed as the conventional models of movement do not correspond to what Akuzawa sensei is doing. Now I don't recall this gentleman's name or what university he was affiliated it, but this would indicate to me, that this is a difference in terms of the conventional western model of movement and thus it is unlikely that high level athletes are doing what he is doing.

This is second hand of course, so make of it what you will.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:14 AM   #30
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Hi John,

Just out of interest, have you ever grabbed Kanetsuka Sensei? In my opinion he and Ikeda Sensei are doing basically the same thing (though Ikeda does actually explain what he is doing in ways that most of us can understand...).

Alex
Hi Alex,

Nope, not ever grabbed him (yet). He and my first teacher kind of fell out... You know how the rest goes! I should make the effort really...

Best Regards,
John

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Old 11-13-2012, 05:41 AM   #31
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Well, I did practice with Kanetsuka sensei. He used be known for his hard, even rough style of Aikido. It changed after his illness - the form of the technique did not change dramatically, it still looked like Yoshinkan Aikido, but his techniques felt different. I have never experienced Ikeda's Aikido - for me it felt more like Tamura sensei's Aikido.

Tom
Hi Tom,

Your comments are very interesting. Everyone remarked on the changes in KS's aikido when he became seriously ill in the mid-1980s (for those who don't know, he had an inoperable nasopharyngeal tumour) - he carried on teaching and practising even when he was shockingly emaciated and physically weak. At that time he was strongly influenced by his recent close contact with Sekiya Sensei and also from the visits of Yamaguchi Sensei to the UK at the time, both of whom I think helped him to develop a substantially softer and much less effortful aikido.

All the same, I have come to the conclusion over the years that his aikido is still largely based on that of his first teacher, Gozo Shioda. Note that I don't say "Yoshinkan", since the Yoshinkai syllabus to me looks rather more rigid and codified than what I see Shioda teaching and demonstrating himself. I haven't experienced any senior Yoshinkai teachers in person, but I think Kanetsuka's emphasis on training in postural and structural stability, his ultra-compact body movement and his direct and instant connection with uke are much more similar to what I see in Shioda (and also as I have heard it described by Robert Mustard and others) than in most teachers in the Yamaguchi line.

Having said that, though, and as I mentioned earlier, there is a perhaps surprising convergence with Ikeda Sensei's aikido. For instance, there is a nice clip of the latter here, which demonstration I have seen Kanetsuka Sensei do many times, and which I understand is intended to illustrate connection without tai-sabaki (to get back to the topic of this thread).

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 11-13-2012 at 05:43 AM.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:45 AM   #32
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Hi Alex,

Nope, not ever grabbed him (yet). He and my first teacher kind of fell out... You know how the rest goes! I should make the effort really...
I understand completely...

Alex
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:46 AM   #33
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Not quite, I do think there are many models. But there is only one Machine. Both CXW and world class tennis players use that same machine (the human body).
Sure, but they use that same machine in a fundamentally different way. Then again, as a consequence their machine is conditioned in a different way, resulting in (arguably) two different machines.

Quote:
I agree that these models describe things differently. Mutually exclusive, I don't agree with. In Mike's basic outline, even if there is more to it, both models agree on many points.
The fact that both models seem to agree on many points, does not mean they are the same or not mutually exclusive.
Moreover, Mike has directly said that what he does is a different form of movement. So I don't think you should use his blog to argue against a point he actually agrees with. That just doesn't make sense.

Quote:
I also disagree that there is a modern "Western physiology/sports model", I think that we are all sharing enough information (nations of the world) that we are getting pretty close to having a very similar model, within professional sports, everywhere in the world. I do agree that there is an Easter internal arts model, it's around a hundred or more years old (depending on who you think constructed that model). But I don't think the Chinese government is using that model to train it's olympic athletes. I think you would find the modern Chinese using a similar model to the one you would see in a modern Western sports facility. So I believe it's a "modern athletic model" and an "older Chinese internal model" we are comparing.
Cool, you call 'm what you like. The names have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make: the older Chinese internal arts model is different from and mutually exclusive to the modern athletic one. And yes, both form of movements are accessible from the same machine. The human body is a complex enough system (especially when taking skill acquisition and conditioning into account) to allow that.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:44 AM   #34
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

I suggest the metaphor of the body as a "machine" may not be helpful here. I would even say it's quite limiting to the discussion. I can see no compelling reason to use it, especially since a lot of the stuff that is being discussed is about categories like "intent".
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:12 PM   #35
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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the two plans are mutually exclusive; implementing one will automatically rule out the other
They are not mutually exclusive, because they share many of the same points. As Mike outlined.
The body is the same, they are both models describing/suggesting proper body use.

Nicholas,
If we are talking about how the body physically works, we are talking about the body as a machine.
There are also aspects of Mental and Spiritual use, but as far as I can see we don't need to get into those just yet, because we can't even agree on body use yet.

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Old 11-13-2012, 02:54 PM   #36
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
They are not mutually exclusive, because they share many of the same points. As Mike outlined.
The body is the same, they are both models describing/suggesting proper body use.
Repeating what you said earlier and ignoring what I said (especially the part about Mike's position on this), does not make your point any more convincing. I am done here. Good luck with the rest of your investigation.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:49 PM   #37
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If we are talking about how the body physically works, we are talking about the body as a machine.
There are also aspects of Mental and Spiritual use, but as far as I can see we don't need to get into those just yet, because we can't even agree on body use yet.
I get hung up on this too. Recently I changed my thinking on this when I was actually able to manifest intent to move uke. With no discernable movement on my part and just using intent uke is driven down into the mat. How's the model explain that?

By no discernable movement I mean I did not move, I did not mean to move and I had no intention of moving and I'm pretty sure if viewed from a third party they would not have seen me move. Yet uke is driven down just by 'thought'.

Anybody that tried to explain it to me I'd have laughed (and did) them off as full of BS, hypnotized, colluding or brainwashed, etc.

Really, no way for me to explain it without everyone calling BS and blowing me off (unless you are one of 'them'). Even video would result in the BS flag being thrown.

Only way was for me to be the uke and feel it done to me ... then do some directed body work and then be able to do it myself. Granted I'm not very good and I'm pretty sure I'm not quite able to explain it hands on (as in teach one how to do it) but progress is happening. Some body work and basic conditioning is required as a prerequisite except for the most rudimentry manifestations.

When I'm able to pull it off with 50% success rate I'll look you (Chris Hein) up next time I'm in Fresno (any excuse to break away from the mother in law).

I think this is what Mike Sigman would call a mind directed manipulation of a ground path (jin) - maybe he would not call it that. From what little I know of Mike Sigman I'd say there is more to it than that (Mike always says that anyway). I'm happy to be wrong ... I usually am. I do like whole bananas.

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Old 11-13-2012, 08:09 PM   #38
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I get hung up on this too. Recently I changed my thinking on this when I was actually able to manifest intent to move uke. With no discernable movement on my part and just using intent uke is driven down into the mat. How's the model explain that?

By no discernable movement I mean I did not move, I did not mean to move and I had no intention of moving and I'm pretty sure if viewed from a third party they would not have seen me move. Yet uke is driven down just by 'thought'.
What was uke doing while you were manifesting your intent? Was he just standing there passively or giving you the energy of his attack? What was he attacking with; grab or blow? Have you tried the same experiment with an inanimate object?

Ron

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Old 11-13-2012, 08:44 PM   #39
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
What was uke doing while you were manifesting your intent? Was he just standing there passively or giving you the energy of his attack? What was he attacking with; grab or blow? Have you tried the same experiment with an inanimate object?

Ron
Fist pressing into guts. Works also on a broom wedged into guts (at least I can replicate the feeling - broom handle does not actually go anywhere). I use a push broom with the head in my guts and the handle wedged against a stop on the floor. The wooden handled push broom flexes - the metal one not much except the feeling is there.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:46 PM   #40
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Hi Tom,

Your comments are very interesting. Everyone remarked on the changes in KS's aikido when he became seriously ill in the mid-1980s (for those who don't know, he had an inoperable nasopharyngeal tumour) - he carried on teaching and practising even when he was shockingly emaciated and physically weak. At that time he was strongly influenced by his recent close contact with Sekiya Sensei and also from the visits of Yamaguchi Sensei to the UK at the time, both of whom I think helped him to develop a substantially softer and much less effortful aikido.

All the same, I have come to the conclusion over the years that his aikido is still largely based on that of his first teacher, Gozo Shioda. Note that I don't say "Yoshinkan", since the Yoshinkai syllabus to me looks rather more rigid and codified than what I see Shioda teaching and demonstrating himself. I haven't experienced any senior Yoshinkai teachers in person, but I think Kanetsuka's emphasis on training in postural and structural stability, his ultra-compact body movement and his direct and instant connection with uke are much more similar to what I see in Shioda (and also as I have heard it described by Robert Mustard and others) than in most teachers in the Yamaguchi line.

Having said that, though, and as I mentioned earlier, there is a perhaps surprising convergence with Ikeda Sensei's aikido. For instance, there is a nice clip of the latter here, which demonstration I have seen Kanetsuka Sensei do many times, and which I understand is intended to illustrate connection without tai-sabaki (to get back to the topic of this thread).

Alex
Bonjour Alex,
Thanks for the input - I was not aware of any contact between Kanetsuka's sensei en Yamaguchi sensei. I think you have a good point here; When I saw him do kihon waza it often did have the same form as the Yoshinkan syllabus, but it was by no means as rigid. I think you are right in that the emphasis on structural stability, correct posture and instant connection with uke must have come directly from Shioda sensei. There is a difference between Shioda sensei and the curriculum that his students follow. I think Kanetsuka sensei is more close to Shioda sensei's personal way.
Thank you very much for the clip - I can see where you must have experienced similarities. Had a look at some other clips of Ikeda sensei as well and they made me wish I had had the opportunity to feel his techniques and method myself.
All the best,

Tom
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:18 PM   #41
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
When I'm able to pull it off with 50% success rate I'll look you (Chris Hein) up next time I'm in Fresno (any excuse to break away from the mother in law).
HA! I'm happy to be your mother-in-law escape!! You're welcome anytime! HA!

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Old 11-14-2012, 12:54 AM   #42
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Chris,
I do not think you are trolling here - I think you have brought forward some points that deserve serious consideration.
It would be interesting to see a response by Mike.

One thing that I would like to point out is that the word jin as such does not just refer to skill or power in the martial arts. Someone who is cutting trees as a trade may require a jin from this that is specific for his trade. So a sailor would have a jin as a result of sailing, a swordsmith as a result of forging metal, and so on. A sailor might be just as strong as a swordsmith, but still would not have the jin to make a sword.

Tom
Tom,
I will settle for a Gin,with a large tonic water , ice and a piece of lemon, thank you very much. Joe
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:32 AM   #43
Alex Megann
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Thank you very much for the clip - I can see where you must have experienced similarities. Had a look at some other clips of Ikeda sensei as well and they made me wish I had had the opportunity to feel his techniques and method myself.
Tom
Hi Tom,

I don't know if you are aware of it, but Ikeda Sensei is coming to England (Coventry) in April next year. I can give you more details if you are interested.

Alex
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:31 AM   #44
Alex Megann
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Bonjour Alex,
Thank you very much for the clip - I can see where you must have experienced similarities. Had a look at some other clips of Ikeda sensei as well and they made me wish I had had the opportunity to feel his techniques and method myself.
All the best,

Tom
For your interest, here is a recent clip of Kanetsuka Sensei explaining (in typically idiosyncratic fashion) his understanding of musubi and connection using a student's obi.

The sound quality is not good, but it does come with a simultaneous translation into Polish, in case that helps anyone...

Alex
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:22 AM   #45
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Smile Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
For your interest, here is a recent clip of Kanetsuka Sensei explaining (in typically idiosyncratic fashion) his understanding of musubi and connection using a student's obi.

The sound quality is not good, but it does come with a simultaneous translation into Polish, in case that helps anyone...

Alex
Hi Alex,
Thank you for the clip. Kanetsuka sensei very fit here. And teaches in a totally different way from the first time I saw him. Could not really hear what he was explaining - and the Polish translation did not really help
I am familiar with the principle of musubi - put an article about this together with some photo's on my weblog earlier this year; http://aikido-auvergne-kumano.blogsp...04/musubi.html
but I am not sure if everyone who parctices Aikido thinks of musubi when they are talking about connection. From what I have read about IP/IS I get the impression that the proponents of IP/IS do mean something else by connection?
I think Kanetsuka sensei is here specifically explaining musubi.

Tom
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:25 AM   #46
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Tom,
I will settle for a Gin,with a large tonic water , ice and a piece of lemon, thank you very much. Joe
Hello Joe,
Would Dutch Jinever do?

Have not seen you on this forum for a while. Everything fine?

Tom
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:29 AM   #47
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Hi Tom,

I don't know if you are aware of it, but Ikeda Sensei is coming to England (Coventry) in April next year. I can give you more details if you are interested.

Alex
Hi Alex,

Yes, would love to get the details and will mention the seminar to a few others as well.

Health permitting I just might cross the Channel.

Tom
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:45 AM   #48
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Hi Alex,

Yes, would love to get the details and will mention the seminar to a few others as well.

Health permitting I just might cross the Channel.

Tom
he travels to France once a year. or doing European tour too. this was earlier this year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyjBZ...eature=related

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Old 11-14-2012, 09:08 AM   #49
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
he travels to France once a year. or doing European tour too. this was earlier this year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyjBZ...eature=related
Thanks! I was not aware of this - but will definitely look into it to see when and where !

Tom
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:49 AM   #50
SteveTrinkle
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Re: Mike sigman's internal strength parameters- Have you guys read this; really!

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John Burn wrote: View Post
Hmmmm, I agree entirely with what everyone else has said to you.

I hold Ikeda sensei as the gold standard for being able to use and apply IS in an Aikido framework - I have NEVER felt any other Aikido teacher with the skill set he has and definitely no Aikido student.

If it was normal, everyone would be able to do it. They can't. Why not? It's not normal that's why.

You seem to have a real issue trying to meet any of these people, I'm assuming you've at least made the effort to train with the one Aikido teacher that everyone seems to agree has the goods?
IrecommendBill Gleason Sensei to you and a couple of his senior students!Best!,Steve

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