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Old 11-07-2012, 04:40 PM   #51
Chris Knight
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Hi matt. No you can have internal power without aiki. But i stand to be corrected. This is from previous research. Just cant remember the source!! Lol

Cheers

Chtis
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:42 PM   #52
stan baker
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Instead of speculating and wondering go experience
Directly.then the conversation could be alot more productive

Stan
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:28 PM   #53
HL1978
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
woo? hey, hunter, are you doing the woo? are we into the woo? is that some sort of party with booze and chicks? because if it is, i am in the woo. is the plural of woo, wii?

if i told you that i have a degree in hard physical science and one of those hard engineering field, would you still think i am into the woo or whatever that is? then again, maybe i am into woo woo. wonder if i can call it woodo, the way of woo.
Phi, you can woo me anytime you want.

I think people would be surprised how many people with an interest in IS have engineering and science degrees and don't think that its anything other than a particular skillset and method of conditioning the body in a certain way. There are also people with kinesiology backgrounds who have looked into IS and been a bit baffled since it doesn't correspond to what they know. To get that sort of reaction out of a kinesiology prof, would probably indicate that this isn't normal athletic movement that top athletes use.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:13 PM   #54
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Hi matt. No you can have internal power without aiki. But i stand to be corrected. This is from previous research. Just cant remember the source!! Lol

Cheers

Chtis
Hi Chris,
I'm betting you have a better understanding than I do. So from this standpoint would it be better to say that not all IP includes aiki, but all aiki includes IP?
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:27 PM   #55
Chris Li
 
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,
I'm betting you have a better understanding than I do. So from this standpoint would it be better to say that not all IP includes aiki, but all aiki includes IP?
Take care,
Matt
I would agree - but I'm not the same Chris.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-07-2012, 10:08 PM   #56
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
There are other ways to achieve this result, but we'd have to examine those on a case by case basis. If more IP experts would put their stuff on video, we could do this, so we could better see what is happening. Maybe they'll start showing more stuff on video...
Why not just go and meet them? They're all over. Forrest Chang is in your state. Dan comes out there. If you're a professional martial artist, it's your duty.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 11-07-2012, 10:40 PM   #57
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Why not just go and meet them? They're all over. Forrest Chang is in your state. Dan comes out there. If you're a professional martial artist, it's your duty.

David
The most interesting thing about this is, my subjective experience (what I feel) is of no consequence with one caveat. If that subjective experience is repeatable and dependable.

"feeling" like something, doesn't make it an objective reality. Getting hit in the face is an objective reality. If I know it or not, I got hit in the face, which did something. I feel like martial arts are something that are objective first and subjective second. So "has to be felt" sounds totally silly to me, with the exception of that caveat I mentioned.

Feeling amazed, or feeling impressed doesn't mean anything happened, I feel amazed all the time just sitting in a chair. I've yet to see anyone show anything that makes me think "Man I've got to feel that". Now sometimes I do get fired up, and sick of hearing things that I don't think are true (like I've been feeling the last few weeks), and I think I should go to a seminar, but mostly my intentions are not good ones, I'm not curious, I'm annoyed. If I ever heard a compelling argument, or found someone in the IP world who I thought was being very genuine and could do some impressive things, I'm sure I would go to a seminar, with a curiousness and good intentions. I don't want to go to a seminar with bad intentions.

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Old 11-07-2012, 10:51 PM   #58
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
In the first picture, from another demonstration you can most clearly see the arm that is keeping "CXW" from being pushed over. It can again bee seen in the strongman, however the camera guy did a good job with the heavy guy and we really only catch a brief moment of the arm (I had a hard time getting it) In the first video I found of CXW doing this the arm that helps is shown often, but in this strongman video you can't see it very often, it's alway in the back.

I found a few video's of CXW doing this kind of push test, in every example he has his arm in the same place. Is it possible that this is not how he's doing it, absolutely. However if you put your arm in that spot, you can do exactly what he is doing, maybe not quite as well (without some practice), but you can do it too.

While I've heard people sat that this can be done with the arms down I haven't seen any video. If there is video of such a thing I would like to discuss that video.
His arm is not where you show in your diagram. I learned that little trick forty years ago. It's a little trick. It's NOT what's being done in the IP/IS training.

In these pics, CXW's arm is over the other guy's arm--not pushing up from underneath.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 11-07-2012, 10:58 PM   #59
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
"feeling" like something, doesn't make it an objective reality. Getting hit in the face is an objective reality. If I know it or not, I got hit in the face, which did something. I feel like martial arts are something that are objective first and subjective second. So "has to be felt" sounds totally silly to me, with the exception of that caveat I mentioned.
Well, then say that "it has to be experienced." That's what people are really talking about. You can't get it from watching videos (not much of it).

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Now sometimes I do get fired up, and sick of hearing things that I don't think are true (like I've been feeling the last few weeks), and I think I should go to a seminar, but mostly my intentions are not good ones, I'm not curious, I'm annoyed.
Nothing wrong with that. What did Tenryu feel when he decided to grab Ueshiba's arm? He was annoyed that the old man was up there making a mockery of Japanese budo. If that's what it takes to get you out of your self-constructed reality, no problem. Go and show those guys. And then you'll know. Those guys are professionals. They can take all you can give them and not get ruffled about it.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:01 PM   #60
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

His rear arm, is under the armpit. It's not where it is in the diagram no, because it was hard to make a diagram that looked right with the arm as he has it. I'll have to make a video to show you guys how to do it. He doesn't change position, he stays in the same place with his rear arm in the same position. He's using the same technique in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28

But it's easier to see. If you don't believe me, try it yourself.

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Old 11-07-2012, 11:03 PM   #61
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Dan told me that he was not comfortable with me coming to his seminar. If that's changed I'm interested.

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Old 11-07-2012, 11:15 PM   #62
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Dan told me that he was not comfortable with me coming to his seminar. If that's changed I'm interested.
There's still Forrest Chang, and he might be better for your purposes. He hasn't talked much in public, but a lot of people talk about him. He's listed his "stupid jin tricks" that I hope someday to experience. And then there's Mike Sigman and, always, Minoru Akuzawa....

Also, in less than two weeks, William Gleason will be teaching at George Ledyard's dojo in Seattle. He has pure traditional aikido from aikikai hombu, but he has worked the IP/IS into it (or back into it). He would have to be an excellent reference for you.

The opportunities abound.

All it takes is sincere effort.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 11-08-2012, 12:15 AM   #63
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
There's still Forrest Chang, and he might be better for your purposes. He hasn't talked much in public, but a lot of people talk about him. He's listed his "stupid jin tricks" that I hope someday to experience. And then there's Mike Sigman and, always, Minoru Akuzawa....

Also, in less than two weeks, William Gleason will be teaching at George Ledyard's dojo in Seattle. He has pure traditional aikido from aikikai hombu, but he has worked the IP/IS into it (or back into it). He would have to be an excellent reference for you.

The opportunities abound.

All it takes is sincere effort.

David
The problem David, if you read above, I'm not sincerely interested. I don't think there is anything of interest. I'm mostly just annoyed. I would go to a Dan Harden seminar, if Dan would let me come.

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Old 11-08-2012, 12:40 AM   #64
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I would agree - but I'm not the same Chris.

Best,

Chris
Close enough.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:40 AM   #65
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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The problem David, if you read above, I'm not sincerely interested. I don't think there is anything of interest. I'm mostly just annoyed. I would go to a Dan Harden seminar, if Dan would let me come.
So you're here just trying to intellectually disprove what everyone tells you must be directly experienced?

Pointless and a waste of everyone's time.

Sincerity in anything is sincerity in everything.

If you sincerely believe that your aikido is worth anything, you'll be compelled to go and prove it against these annoying pretenders.

You can say you have nothing to prove, but if that were true, you wouldn't be here trying to prove intellectually what can only be known by direct experience.

Dan's fine and Dan's great, but he's not the end-all, be-all of IP/IS. It's an ancient field that few care enough about to go deeply into. That's always been true.

But if you sincerely want to plumb the depths of aiki, you need to stop talking about it and go and see the real thing.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 11-08-2012, 01:06 AM   #66
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
So you're here just trying to intellectually disprove what everyone tells you must be directly experienced?

Pointless and a waste of everyone's time.

Sincerity in anything is sincerity in everything.

If you sincerely believe that your aikido is worth anything, you'll be compelled to go and prove it against these annoying pretenders.

You can say you have nothing to prove, but if that were true, you wouldn't be here trying to prove intellectually what can only be known by direct experience.

Dan's fine and Dan's great, but he's not the end-all, be-all of IP/IS. It's an ancient field that few care enough about to go deeply into. That's always been true.

But if you sincerely want to plumb the depths of aiki, you need to stop talking about it and go and see the real thing.

David
This is really cute.

Okay David,
This week, at my Dojo I'm going to teach all the secrets passed down to me by my teachers. If you are sincerer about your desire to learn, you'll be here. After all I'm going to teach all of my secrets. So I'll expect to see you soon right?

Why or why not?

If you don't end up coming.

Here is the reason you suggest, you are not sincere about your training.

Here is a reason I suggest, it's not that important to you.

Do you like my reason or yours better?

Answer carefully, because I'm going to judge your sincerity in everything you do by your answer...

I tell you what, If any of these IP experts, in my state, wish me to come and see them, I'll accept any invitation made in the next three months. Now if they are super sincere they'll want to show me that I am wrong, and try to set me straight. If they don't invite me, they must be completely insincere, right? After all, here I am saying that they aren't right. I'm sure they will be rushing to my doorstep any second. And if they don't, I can write them off as frauds, right? And because of their lack of sincerity, you will know them to be untrue.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 11-08-2012 at 01:10 AM.

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Old 11-08-2012, 01:37 AM   #67
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
woo? hey, hunter, are you doing the woo? are we into the woo? is that some sort of party with booze and chicks? because if it is, i am in the woo. is the plural of woo, wii?

if i told you that i have a degree in hard physical science and one of those hard engineering field, would you still think i am into the woo or whatever that is? then again, maybe i am into woo woo. wonder if i can call it woodo, the way of woo.
If you are in the hard sciences/ engineering, and you told me something about IP other than "Wow, there's this weird thing these other guys are doing and we should do it too!" I'd be all ears. You've got a lot of 'splaining to do, Lucy.

And, since I also have a degree and experience in engineering, you could feel free to use pretty big words and complicated ideas, like vectors and normal forces and torque and line integrals and divergence and shit. I aint skeeerd.

So far, I am not convinced there is anything there but good biomechanics. And they seem to be covered up in a lot of vague handwaving about spiralling energy and other inspecific stuff. Tell me something real.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:04 AM   #68
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
If you are in the hard sciences/ engineering, and you told me something about IP other than "Wow, there's this weird thing these other guys are doing and we should do it too!" I'd be all ears. You've got a lot of 'splaining to do, Lucy.

And, since I also have a degree and experience in engineering, you could feel free to use pretty big words and complicated ideas, like vectors and normal forces and torque and line integrals and divergence and shit. I aint skeeerd.

So far, I am not convinced there is anything there but good biomechanics. And they seem to be covered up in a lot of vague handwaving about spiralling energy and other inspecific stuff. Tell me something real.
Well, in the end I suppose you could say that everything is biomechanics, since we are biomechanical creatures - even thought impulses are biomechanical in nature at some level. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that these things are simple, easily understood, or even generally understood by most people.

There are a number of Chinese classical texts that lay these things out in some detail - if you can wade your way though them.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:18 AM   #69
Chris Knight
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Hi Matt... well I wish I lived in Hawaii with all the hula hula girls kicking about...

Hi Krystal

Through reading and reading and researching albeit for only 12-18 months, and then meeting one of the "Aiki" teachers, (yes I know people have different ideas of what Aiki is), it correlates with my understanding.
It seems a bit too much of a coincidence that all Takeda's (japanese) chosen students, say EXACTLY the same things, and Chen Fake's (chinese) students say EXACTLY the same thing. These are not parlour tricks. Do you really believe Takeda was offering parlour tricks to his chosen transmission students?? Remember that in that era, although he taught 1000's of students, only 2 or 3 were passed down "the goods". Take it or leave it, I'm not interested. I dont have a dog in this debate, it just winds me up when people dont do their research. You really haven't researched in yo, spiral energy, cross body connection if you think they're woo woo... all that stops the second you lay hands on someone with those qualities.
N.b All my opinions are that of my own and dont reflect on my teachers in any way

Cheers
Chris
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:16 AM   #70
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
The problem David, if you read above, I'm not sincerely interested. I don't think there is anything of interest.
Why start threads about things you're not interested in?

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Old 11-08-2012, 06:18 AM   #71
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
So far, I am not convinced there is anything there but good biomechanics.
Of course, it's nothing but good biomechanics. Only problem is that it's a very specific set of biomechanics that you will have a very very hard time (if not impossible) to figure out for yourself. And it is a fundamentally different way of moving than normal movement. So if you say "IP is nothing but good biomechanics." that's technically correct, but also somewhat misleading. There are several mutally exclusive biomechanical models of human movement. If you do not move in an IP fashion, you can improve your biomechanics all you want, you will not develop any IP.

Quote:
And they seem to be covered up in a lot of vague handwaving about spiralling energy and other inspecific stuff. Tell me something real.
The spiralling energy is real. You can feel it in your body in a way similar you can feel yourself lifting your arm. So for the purpose of learning IP and of describing what it feels like those descriptions are very much real. They correspond to proprioceptive reality.
That may not be 'real' as in 'biomechanically real', i.e. correspond to a scientific model of the body. Although I really would like to have such a model for IP, I don't think you will be able to learn IP based on such a model anymore that you could learn how to ride a bike from a biomechinical description. So the fact that we don't have that scientific model doesn't really bother me in the end.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:01 AM   #72
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
If you are in the hard sciences/ engineering, and you told me something about IP other than "Wow, there's this weird thing these other guys are doing and we should do it too!" I'd be all ears. You've got a lot of 'splaining to do, Lucy.

And, since I also have a degree and experience in engineering, you could feel free to use pretty big words and complicated ideas, like vectors and normal forces and torque and line integrals and divergence and shit. I aint skeeerd.

So far, I am not convinced there is anything there but good biomechanics. And they seem to be covered up in a lot of vague handwaving about spiralling energy and other inspecific stuff. Tell me something real.
the foundation of science is to state "i know not what that is" and then go about find ways to explain it, but first and foremost admitting i know not. that's also, the foundation of shoshin. a few years back, at one of the height of aiki war on aikiweb, i was curious about what all these IP/IS/aiki talk. i thought these guys were smoking something really good, maybe they founded the new LSD. so i went out and seek and experience it first hand. in my mind, all these things are just, as you said, good biomechanics (did i mention i also worked on my biomedical enginering degree?) one of the IP practitioner did something to me, and with all my knowledge i could not explain. so i said "i know not what that is". as an experiment, i took what these IP folks offer and worked with it for about 2 years. i felt certain changes within my body. some i could explain, many i still could not. even with the vault knowledge in sciences today, we still do not know many many things about the human body. to said that we can explain everything we do is extremely arrogant. there are many things the ancient did, we still could not explain or understand.

btw, the term jin meant, using mike sigman terminology, mind directed force. it came from the old statement: heart leads mind, mind leads qi/ki, qi/ki leads physical movement. from science point of view, you have mind and biomechanics. the mind is a vast and sophisticate computer with neural networks running throughout the body, that uses various bio, chemical, and electrical processes, at least those are the three that we know of. threre are those that we can directly control and those that are on "automatic". that is just the mind part which we knew so very little about. then the biomechanics which governs by various mechanical and chemical processes and control or not control by the mind, that we know of. we still don't understand so many of these. the amount of stuffs about our body that we don't know are stagering. if you noticed i didn't mention about qi/ki portion. that there is a gap of knowledge that we can't explain very well. because that discussion will lead us to the various questions such as what is life? what is the soul? what makes us so different even though we all have the same body parts?

there are things i can explain and things i cannot. those that i cannot, i accept the terms used by the ancient, until which times my knowledge catches up with my experience, then i will attempt to explain. to do anything else is crazy talk. then again, i wasn't sane in the first place.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:31 AM   #73
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This is really cute.

Okay David,
This week, at my Dojo I'm going to teach all the secrets passed down to me by my teachers. If you are sincerer about your desire to learn, you'll be here. After all I'm going to teach all of my secrets. So I'll expect to see you soon right?
Let's put this in perspective, Chris.

David Orange who trained with Mochizuki went.
Bill Gleason, who trained with Saotome and Yamaguchi went.
Marc Abrams who trained with Imaizumi and Ushiro went.
Chris Li who trained with too many to list went.
Allen Beebe who trained with Shirata went.
George Ledyard who trained with Saotome went.
That's just the tip of the iceberg.

So, now that *you* are going to teach "all the secrets", (which, btw, is completely different than what the above mentioned people are teaching), you expect people to show up? And are insincere if they don't?

You keep arguing that your definition of "aiki" is right and ours is wrong, yet we have people who have spent up to 40 years in the aikido world with direct students (and that's just the ones who are known publicly). These people that have gone out and put their skills on the line (and failed) are less sincere than you because they didn't expect the mountain to come to them but went to the mountain? Really?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Why or why not?

If you don't end up coming.

Here is the reason you suggest, you are not sincere about your training.

Here is a reason I suggest, it's not that important to you.

Do you like my reason or yours better?

Answer carefully, because I'm going to judge your sincerity in everything you do by your answer...
I like David's, mine, Bill's, Marc's, Chris', Allen's, George's reason better. Their sincerety in their training pushed them to get out and into an unknown, unfamiliar world and lay their reputations on the line. In the end, they learned, they trained, they adapted ... their sincerity allowed them to become better martial artists.

BTW, David traveled all the way to Massachusetts to put his sincerety on the line.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:49 AM   #74
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the foundation of science is to state "i know not what that is" and then go about find ways to explain it, but first and foremost admitting i know not. that's also, the foundation of shoshin. a few years back, at one of the height of aiki war on aikiweb, i was curious about what all these IP/IS/aiki talk. i thought these guys were smoking something really good, maybe they founded the new LSD. so i went out and seek and experience it first hand. in my mind, all these things are just, as you said, good biomechanics (did i mention i also worked on my biomedical enginering degree?) one of the IP practitioner did something to me, and with all my knowledge i could not explain. so i said "i know not what that is". as an experiment, i took what these IP folks offer and worked with it for about 2 years. i felt certain changes within my body. some i could explain, many i still could not. even with the vault knowledge in sciences today, we still do not know many many things about the human body. to said that we can explain everything we do is extremely arrogant. there are many things the ancient did, we still could not explain or understand.

btw, the term jin meant, using mike sigman terminology, mind directed force. it came from the old statement: heart leads mind, mind leads qi/ki, qi/ki leads physical movement. from science point of view, you have mind and biomechanics. the mind is a vast and sophisticate computer with neural networks running throughout the body, that uses various bio, chemical, and electrical processes, at least those are the three that we know of. threre are those that we can directly control and those that are on "automatic". that is just the mind part which we knew so very little about. then the biomechanics which governs by various mechanical and chemical processes and control or not control by the mind, that we know of. we still don't understand so many of these. the amount of stuffs about our body that we don't know are stagering. if you noticed i didn't mention about qi/ki portion. that there is a gap of knowledge that we can't explain very well. because that discussion will lead us to the various questions such as what is life? what is the soul? what makes us so different even though we all have the same body parts?

there are things i can explain and things i cannot. those that i cannot, i accept the terms used by the ancient, until which times my knowledge catches up with my experience, then i will attempt to explain. to do anything else is crazy talk. then again, i wasn't sane in the first place.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:00 AM   #75
David Orange
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
This is really cute.
Is it, now? After I just sent you such a nice PM?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Okay David,
This week, at my Dojo I'm going to teach all the secrets passed down to me by my teachers. If you are sincerer about your desire to learn, you'll be here. After all I'm going to teach all of my secrets. So I'll expect to see you soon right?

Why or why not?


Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If you don't end up coming.

Here is the reason you suggest, you are not sincere about your training.

Here is a reason I suggest, it's not that important to you.

Do you like my reason or yours better?


Answer carefully, because I'm going to judge your sincerity in everything you do by your answer...
Don't make me be harsher in public than I was in the PM, Chris. Good grief, you complained about what I was saying in public...such statements as these are what get you such harsh answers.

But to be frank, why would I consider your secrets worth coming across town for?

Has anyone written, "I thought Chris Hein was full of it, but when I met him, I couldn't move him, and with a slight touch, he knocked me back several feet!"

....no...I don't recall ever hearing anyone report such experiences with you. Plus, I've seen your videos...and I've read what you have to say...so...even if I had my bicycle back from my ex and I could pedal across town to meet you...I probably wouldn't.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I tell you what, If any of these IP experts, in my state, wish me to come and see them, I'll accept any invitation made in the next three months. Now if they are super sincere they'll want to show me that I am wrong, and try to set me straight. If they don't invite me, they must be completely insincere, right? After all, here I am saying that they aren't right. I'm sure they will be rushing to my doorstep any second. And if they don't, I can write them off as frauds, right? And because of their lack of sincerity, you will know them to be untrue.
Don't forget, Chris, Ueshiba didn't go to people to prove them wrong. He just did his thing and so many people talked about his great power as well as the things he said, that others ran to Uehsiba to prove that they could beat him. Same with Dan. He made "outrageous" statements on forums and people went to him. I was very impressed by Mark Murray's account of meeting Dan briefly and it was as I wrote above: "I couldn't move him and he could hit me hard with almost no movement!"

And it's as Dan and others have often said: if you understand what they're doing, you will be known for unusual power and the word will get around, and people will come to you. Unfortunately, you're sending quite the opposite message about yourself.

So, not to be mean...but... I'm sure it will come off that way...because you've "explained" what Chen Xiao Wang is doing and simplified his seventy years of tai chi development to "a trick."

But I'm also pretty sure it will continue until you meet somebody who really knows the subject and experience in person what you've tried to analyze through video.

Good luck.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 11-08-2012 at 08:12 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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