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Old 11-07-2012, 02:29 AM   #26
ChrisHein
 
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Chris, why would you want to discuss IP
Well my main interest in discussing IP these days is because people want to call it "Aiki".

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Old 11-07-2012, 02:38 AM   #27
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
As I said earlier, the fact that you know a way with which you can reproduce the demonstration(*) does not mean that CXW does it that way.
You are totally correct, maybe he is doing it some other way, but if you try the way I described you can do it too. The way I described also matches what "CXW" is doing. If we apply Occam's razor to this (the hypotheses making the fewest assumptions should be selected) we'll find that my explanation makes the most sense.

I have already demonstrated this, and provided a link. Now I did this against someone way smaller, but I also did it standing bolt upright on one foot too. There is no doubt that what CXM is doing is difficult, and probably took some hard practice to learn how to do it against that much force, but it's not a mystical thing, or something that would take a lifetime to master. If it took a year to build up the strength and ability to do this I would be surprised.

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Old 11-07-2012, 02:56 AM   #28
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Well my main interest in discussing IP these days is because people want to call it "Aiki".
Hi Chris, from researching into the lives of Ueshiba, Horikawa, and Sagawa, albeit not in great depth, all students of Takeda, no-one is calling internal power aiki, aiki is the resultant action created by a body operating with yin/yang and fuelled by duel spirals, as quoted by the Chen Fake lineage as well. Internal power is the main fuelling behind aiki, to create the conditions necessary etc. IMO - Transparent Power by Sagawa provides quite interesting quotes

Cheers
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:04 AM   #29
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Chris,

When I read locked, I thought you mean CXW has a straight arm, which he clearly does not. Whatever mechanic CXW is using, isn't predicated on where he has placed his hands on the other guy. He probably could replicate the same demo without any hands on the other guy.

So for the peanut gallery, do you think CXW is floating/under the other guy, or doing something else?

Is the strongman using any hip action or not? Who is resting on who?

There are tons of CXW videos online, you will find some translated, there is one that is crudely translated about double weighting which may be informitive if you can figure out the wacky english.

Last edited by HL1978 : 11-07-2012 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:17 AM   #30
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Where is is other arm, the one that is away from the Camera?
on the guy shirt by the waist, actually, looked like he held the guy shirt loosely. look carefully. also, they are chest to chest. also, look at the back muscle of the strong-man dude, it doesn't look like his shoulders pop-up.

btw, your force vectors don't add up. try this, stand with each foot on a scale and then try your approach and see if the scale needles don't change.

ok, i am going to repeat stuffs that would make dan laughing his ass off. it seemed to me that you believed many of the IP/IS stuffs are tricks, as in slight of hand sort, that can be easily accomplished. have you considered that there have been many years passed, and lots of folks took your position then they went and challenged these IP/IS folks, only to change their minds and started to take lessons from these folks? quite a few are on aikiweb today. i remembered reading david orange and rob liberti argued with mike sigman and dan endlessly. there were others too. they are in the archive. many these folks have travelled far and wide. they have quite a bit of experiences. and yet they abandoned long hard earned experiences and converted and changed their practice at later stage of their game. and these are folks who aren't some kyu rank noobs. for example, Hiroshi Ikeda sensei. here is a man whose aikido already superb, second in command of ASU, and had nothing to prove to anyone; yet when he met an internal teacher of a different art, he went and reworked his aikido approach. he is just one of the many examples. do you think they all just lost their mind collectively? i meant you can fool one or two, but many with a great deal of skeptical and lots to lose? do you have problem computing such logics?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:37 AM   #31
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
So here's an additional challenge to support your case: explain how CXW's explanation of what he is doing ...
so my buddy translates the post-contest talking part of it like this;

Tachi Master:
-------------
He has a big power but it's only brute force. I sink my breath to the dan tian (lower belly).
I can avoid the edge, using a soft approach to subdue a tough opponent.

Big muscle guy:
---------------
Instead of push his upper body, I will try to push the lower part of his body.

----
My buddy is lazy so that's all the translation i can get out of him. I would love to see a full english transcription of what both players are saying in between rounds, and after the contest as well. .. if anyone could do it.. ?
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:46 AM   #32
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
My buddy is lazy so that's all the translation i can get out of him. I would love to see a full english transcription of what both players are saying in between rounds, and after the contest as well. .. if anyone could do it.. ?
My japanese is better than my chinese (I speak chinese at home as my inlaws don't speak english), but I will see if I can get a translation for you tonight.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:47 AM   #33
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
You are totally correct, maybe he is doing it some other way, but if you try the way I described you can do it too.
I can do it in a way that is not like yours, yet is closer to what CXW is doing, so I'm not interested in trying it in the way you describe.

Quote:
The way I described also matches what "CXW" is doing.
You say it matches what CXW is doing. That's not worth much. I asked you to show that it also matches what CXW says he is doing, but apparently you're not up to the challenge?

Quote:
If we apply Occam's razor to this (the hypotheses making the fewest assumptions should be selected) we'll find that my explanation makes the most sense.
What hypotheses are we comparing here? To me it now seems that you are stating that your description matches what CXW does, because that's a simpler hypothesis than that it doesn't. Sounds more like a tautology than Occam's razor...
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:50 AM   #34
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
So for the peanut gallery, do you think CXW is floating/under the other guy, or doing something else?

Is the strongman using any hip action or not? Who is resting on who?

There are tons of CXW videos online, you will find some translated, there is one that is crudely translated about double weighting which may be informitive if you can figure out the wacky english.
I think the strongman is floating himself, but I do think CXW is playing with him some there as well, feeling what he's doing and making adjustments to prevent him from getting his weight down and his strength into him.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:10 AM   #35
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Well my main interest in discussing IP these days is because people want to call it "Aiki".
You are not interested in having a discussion. People try to have a discussion with you but you have your own conclusions about this thing. How long have you been arguing with Dan? 4-5 years now?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:17 AM   #36
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

I am not sure how being the strongest and the best really helps.

Each person and each circumstance is different. Training with many different ukes and learning how different bodies move in all sorts of circumstances is a fun way to development inner strength.

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Old 11-07-2012, 12:04 PM   #37
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I am not sure how being the strongest and the best really helps.

Each person and each circumstance is different. Training with many different ukes and learning how different bodies move in all sorts of circumstances is a fun way to development inner strength.
No it isn't. It doesn't help in the least bit.
Ueshiba...your arts founder, like thousands of high level budo people before him..all.....all......all...
pointed to solo training to develop Internal strength.

For a group of folk who make claims of being open minded-modern aikido-ka's interest in re-defining things they don't understand and cannot do to fit what THEY do understand and can do doesn't help anyone grow.
Dan
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:11 PM   #38
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No it isn't. It doesn't help in the least bit.
Ueshiba...your arts founder, like thousands of high level budo people before him..all.....all......all...
pointed to solo training to develop Internal strength.

For a group of folk who make claims of being open minded-modern Aikido-ka's interest in re-defining things they don't understand and cannot do to fit what THEY do understand and can do doesn't help anyone grow.
Dan
oooohhh, 3 fingers fingers pointing back at you again. (about the open minded bit)

I disagree with what you wrote above. It has helped me. And here is how. By training in a semi traditional Aikido dojo I have learned quite a bit about how people move, how it feels to move with them and how it feels to get them to move differently.

It has nothing to do with raw power. This is one of the aspects that makes Aikido as I practice it good for women and smaller men.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 11-07-2012 at 12:14 PM. Reason: spelling

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Old 11-07-2012, 12:33 PM   #39
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Hi Chris, from researching into the lives of Ueshiba, Horikawa, and Sagawa, albeit not in great depth, all students of Takeda, no-one is calling internal power aiki, aiki is the resultant action created by a body operating with yin/yang and fuelled by duel spirals, as quoted by the Chen Fake lineage as well. Internal power is the main fuelling behind aiki, to create the conditions necessary etc. IMO - Transparent Power by Sagawa provides quite interesting quotes

Cheers
I'm confused...easily, I know , but I thought aiki was being called a kind of IP too. Aren't bodies using yin/yang/dual spirals in fact using IP? Isn't one of the major points being made by the proponants of internals that aiki is not an external thing?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:36 PM   #40
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.



In the first picture, from another demonstration you can most clearly see the arm that is keeping "CXW" from being pushed over. It can again bee seen in the strongman, however the camera guy did a good job with the heavy guy and we really only catch a brief moment of the arm (I had a hard time getting it) In the first video I found of CXW doing this the arm that helps is shown often, but in this strongman video you can't see it very often, it's alway in the back.

I found a few video's of CXW doing this kind of push test, in every example he has his arm in the same place. Is it possible that this is not how he's doing it, absolutely. However if you put your arm in that spot, you can do exactly what he is doing, maybe not quite as well (without some practice), but you can do it too.

While I've heard people sat that this can be done with the arms down I haven't seen any video. If there is video of such a thing I would like to discuss that video.

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Old 11-07-2012, 12:42 PM   #41
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
For a group of folk who make claims of being open minded-modern aikido-ka's interest in re-defining things they don't understand and cannot do to fit what THEY do understand and can do doesn't help anyone grow.
Dan
If we can't understand a thing we can't practice it. If you could provide clear visual demonstration of what you mean I think this could help greatly. If you don't want to do so for personal reason's I understand.

I see lot's of speculation about what this teach or that teacher might have said, but what we could use is someone who really understands this stuff to show us. I have given example after example, made numerous video's, and spent plenty of my time trying to show what I understand of these things. I would love it if someone with different/greater insight could show some things as well.

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Old 11-07-2012, 01:02 PM   #42
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post


In the first picture, from another demonstration you can most clearly see the arm that is keeping "CXW" from being pushed over. It can again bee seen in the strongman, however the camera guy did a good job with the heavy guy and we really only catch a brief moment of the arm (I had a hard time getting it) In the first video I found of CXW doing this the arm that helps is shown often, but in this strongman video you can't see it very often, it's alway in the back.

I found a few video's of CXW doing this kind of push test, in every example he has his arm in the same place. Is it possible that this is not how he's doing it, absolutely. However if you put your arm in that spot, you can do exactly what he is doing, maybe not quite as well (without some practice), but you can do it too.

While I've heard people sat that this can be done with the arms down I haven't seen any video. If there is video of such a thing I would like to discuss that video.
I'll ask again, Chris. Explain how the arm does what you say it does. How does him having his arm there redirects the force of the push back to the big guy. How does it work?
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:12 PM   #43
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I am not sure how being the strongest and the best really helps.
being strongest? who? CXW (the old chinese guy)? he's like in his 60s and the other big guys are about half his age and huge. CXW could pump irons all day until the day he dies, he won't be anywhere near their strength. folks talked about blending and ki and stuffs. that's what blending is about. you blend with the other person power and use it and redirect it as your own. it's a way to show that it's not about timing or put yourself in favorable position by moving somewhere else and so on.

for some reason folks think that practicing IP is somehow make you super strong. it's not. you are what you are, and what you have. the question here is how you train and how you use it. Ikeda sensei mentioned it here a few times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7I0M2fx1c

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:49 PM   #44
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
being strongest? who? CXW (the old chinese guy)? he's like in his 60s and the other big guys are about half his age and huge. CXW could pump irons all day until the day he dies, he won't be anywhere near their strength. folks talked about blending and ki and stuffs. that's what blending is about. you blend with the other person power and use it and redirect it as your own. it's a way to show that it's not about timing or put yourself in favorable position by moving somewhere else and so on.

for some reason folks think that practicing IP is somehow make you super strong. it's not. you are what you are, and what you have. the question here is how you train and how you use it. Ikeda sensei mentioned it here a few times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St7I0M2fx1c
There is a guy I know who has jin, who had a car accident injuring his spine prior to his interest in IS. He is not strong in a coventional sense, and when he uses his muscles he is in a ton of pain. If you push on him, he exerts little strength at all, due to the pain, so something else is doing all the work. I think he also picked this stuff up quicker than most due to the feedback from the pain.
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Old 11-07-2012, 02:22 PM   #45
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Are y'all saying that good body mechanics and the training and experience to move someone into a position in which a portion of their power is transferred through me into the ground and the rest dissipated is insufficient? Must I breathe funny or meditate on heaven and earth inside me, or put my beliefs anywhere but in science and demonstrable reality?

What I see in the videos is someone who is wise to using their bones as braces between their pusher and the nearest planet. I see something very like my early aikido training tricks, where someone would sit in seiza and have the class push on his or her shoulders. Good alignment absorbed a large amount of power, and contact with the elbows redirected and dissipated the rest. It had nothing to do with duelling spirals, in/yo, ki, or love and internal harmony. It had everything to do with physics and mechanics.

Someone is going to have to make the link between the woo I am reading and the reality before I accept a cup of the koolaid.
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Old 11-07-2012, 02:38 PM   #46
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I'll ask again, Chris. Explain how the arm does what you say it does. How does him having his arm there redirects the force of the push back to the big guy. How does it work?
Jason, grab your wife and do it, you'll see instantly. If it doesn't work, watch the video link I supplied. If that still doesn't work, look at the diagram that I supplied. If still after trying it you don't understand, let me know, and when I get a moment, and some people to film and demo on I'll make you a step by step how to.

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Old 11-07-2012, 02:54 PM   #47
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Someone is going to have to make the link between the woo I am reading and the reality before I accept a cup of the koolaid.
woo? hey, hunter, are you doing the woo? are we into the woo? is that some sort of party with booze and chicks? because if it is, i am in the woo. is the plural of woo, wii?

if i told you that i have a degree in hard physical science and one of those hard engineering field, would you still think i am into the woo or whatever that is? then again, maybe i am into woo woo. wonder if i can call it woodo, the way of woo.

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Old 11-07-2012, 03:09 PM   #48
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
woo? hey, hunter, are you doing the woo? are we into the woo? is that some sort of party with booze and chicks? because if it is, i am in the woo. is the plural of woo, wii?

if i told you that i have a degree in hard physical science and one of those hard engineering field, would you still think i am into the woo or whatever that is? then again, maybe i am into woo woo. wonder if i can call it woodo, the way of woo.
Hi Phi:

I know you are a funny guy. Have you ever given it any thought about how sexist something like this reads?
Just wondering?

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Old 11-07-2012, 03:26 PM   #49
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Hi Phi:

I know you are a funny guy. Have you ever given it any thought about how sexist something like this reads?
Just wondering?
yes. i am trying to paint an image of a badass dude. grew up with 7 sisters, moms and lots of aunts and cousins, i got all girly. so i got to balance thing out by being a bad boy, so please work with me! that way when folks see me coming they will run away screaming in terror "there goes the dread Phi!" "run away! run away!"

*sorry for cupid slide out of the topics. please resume scheduled IP discussion*

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:34 PM   #50
Marc Abrams
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Re: What is "IP" discussion of Internal power.

Phi:

I am sending over a dominatrix, all dressed in patent leather, with 12" spiked heels and a cat-a-nine-tails to teach some IP..... You've been a naughty boy, now receive your training!

Marc Abrams
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