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Old 10-30-2012, 04:31 PM   #26
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: IS/IP Styles and results comparisons

Quote:
Bernard Kwan wrote: View Post
I have had the good fortune to train a little bit with Mike Sigman (at one of his Seminars and a couple of days of personal instruction), Sam Chin (at his Seminar and with his father Grandmaster Chin in Malaysia), Seichiro Endo (at various Seminars and he will be giving a Seminar with us in HK next year), as well as a number of Yiquan and Baguazhang teachers in Hong Kong in addition to my primary teacher. Some of these experiences are detailed on my Blog

http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot.hk/

I have not had the opportunity to train with Dan Harden nor with Ark.

A few caveats:
(1) You need a bit of exposure to IS/IP to be able to feel and understand the differences (everyone is going to throw you around and you will think they are all powerful). Ignore the guys who say he touched me and I fell down like magic. It is a matter of training your sensitivity, even if you can't do what the master is doing, you should be able to feel that he is doing something to you, and then eventually piece together what happened.
(2) Your definition of what constitutes IS/IP also matters, I have tried to be as agnostic as I can in the following description
(3) All the above are effective when trained to high level, but some methods de-emphasize or emphasize certain aspects, so the question who is better in a fight is not really relevant as all these people can still kick my ass.

Here is my personal opinion on the strengths of each

Mike Sigman - has a comprehensive theoretical model based on Jin,Qi and Suit which has impressive explanatory power. Most of his model is based of off Taiji (mainly Chen taiji) and Chinese internal martial arts classical theory. His exercises will help train the body structure and development of the dantian / tanden, but necessarily take a long period of time to show results. Also he does not teach applications - he is trying to show how to generate a certain kind of power through the use of the dantian - and this "engine" can then be retrofitted into whichever car / style you are driving

I Liq Chuan - a "family" style with strong Yiquan and Taiji influence (and an overlaying of Buddhist meditation techniques). Has a detailed system, and also a systematic method of training which will allow you to control your opponent in spinning hands (his version of push hands) or sparring and developing a good internal sense of balance and control. Good results in a short time. Less emphasis on training "structure" (although he does have some standing post exercises) and little mention of dantian power.

Seishiro Endo - a soft form of Aikido with and emphasis on relaxation and "connection" - the emphasis is on controlling your opponent through forging a connection with the opponent and also executing the technique with the least resistance and effort. Good training for sensitivity and "reading your opponent" to feel where the "holes" are and also to train relaxation of the body and how to use you strength in the most ergonomically efficient way. No emphasis on training the body through solo exercises (although there are glimpses on some of his DVDs and in personal conversation with him that he might actually do this himself) and issuing power or fajin and use of tanden is completely absent.

Yiquan - good training for building a strong body structure that is relaxed but does not collapse and can transmit power efficiently. Good for health and an indeed at higher levels for building a blow-resistant body. Indeed many of its standing post exercises have been co-opted by other arts such as Taiji, I Liq Chuan, etc. However the quality of the instruction is hugely variable, many teachers do not teach applications or know how to fight, and there is some controversy as to whether it uses the dantian.

For baguazhang and Taiji the quality of instruction ranges so widely that its not meaningful to comment.

Just my two cents. Hope this helps.
Thank you for your descriptions! This kinda helps me to understand each art a little. Although I agree with Ashe on the structure and dantien information. The 13 points (I haven't gone through them all yet.) seem to help focus the balanc, structure and use of the dantien and mingmen. I must admit I am a amateur and am not an authority on I Liq Chuan also.

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Old 10-31-2012, 04:51 AM   #27
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: IS/IP Styles and results comparisons

Quote:
Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
This kinda helps me to understand each art a little.
If you are interested to classify the work of Endo seishiro, I invite you to check out some more sources.
There is definitely dantian work. (Endo starts every class by pointing that out.)
There is work on body alignement.
There is work on a connected body. (Working on atari is done by working into one's own body. This is sometimes misunderstood.)
There is work on inyo ho.
And so on.

I admit that this is hardly to realize during his big seminars. Because he does not teach it explicitly. He wants the students to see it and feel it. This for me is the item that has to be compared to other teachers: When practicing with Endo you have to "steel" it. You have to observe him, to touch him, to feel him. And you get answers when you ask the right questions.
And he want's to be this way.
(While other teachers try to explain clearly what they do and give clear methods to learn what they do. So you get a chance to suck more clearly ... )

Endo's stuff can be explored more easy in his small seminars, where he explains more. Or even better during seminars of some of his nearer students. There you often find a clue to what he does.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:37 PM   #28
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Re: IS/IP Styles and results comparisons

Quote:
Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
Bernard, I'm glad you had such a positive experience with my Sifu, but your description of I Liq Chuan is quite flawed. I don't have enough time to address each point by point, but Dan Tien is fundamental, and there is no Taiji or Yiquan influence. This comes up a lot, but there's no direct connection.
That's why I tell people to go meet him and train with him. ASK!!! He is accessible and friendly and can use it. There are several of my folks with him right now In Massachusetts.
Dan
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:28 PM   #29
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: IS/IP Styles and results comparisons

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That's why I tell people to go meet him and train with him. ASK!!! He is accessible and friendly and can use it. There are several of my folks with him right now In Massachusetts.
Dan
I am looking forward to training with you on the Big Island soon!!

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:16 PM   #30
ashe
 
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Re: IS/IP Styles and results comparisons

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There are several of my folks with him right now In Massachusetts.
Dan
that's really cool, I didn't realize any of your peeps were in attendance. i hope they got a chance to touch with Dasha as well, although I heard that it was kind of a full house, so she and Sifu were pretty busy...

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Old 11-19-2012, 11:39 AM   #31
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: IS/IP Styles and results comparisons

I just finished Dan Hardens seminar in Kona on the Big Island....WOW!!! Dan Harden is the real deal! I think I am going to write a review and post it on Aikiweb.

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:14 AM   #32
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: IS/IP Styles and results comparisons

I posted the review its up now.

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