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Old 10-25-2012, 03:31 PM   #26
Mark Harrington
Dojo: Aikido Arnis of Farmville
Location: Greenville, NC
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 15
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Re: back to basics, punch

Your qualifier makes it difficult to reply. No one only studies aikido. We all have used tools, played sports, and used our bodies in various ways. Even O'Sensei and the other senior Aikidoka have some experience with other arts, other activities.

That being said, if you're going to ask the question at all, I know many Aikidoka in our organization that use atemi effectively. Some of them have not formally studied any other arts.

I really, really like the flawed cat. I think you could teach him to bark. http://youtu.be/aP3gzee1cps
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:08 AM   #27
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
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Re: back to basics, punch

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
how many people have you met in aikido (that have only studies aikido) that can deliver a good solid punch
Um, I'll ignore many of the posts as I'm not sure what they're arguing. Which may show my lack of patience and I may receive grief as a result, but what the heck...

I can deliver a pretty solid punch, but... I had prior training in other things. However, I also teach a few classes and I will occasionally take some folk and work on their punching to make them more solid. Fixing their stance, trying to get them to not over-commit, trying to teach them how not to break every freaking finger in their hand should they ever connect with something solid, etc. It wasn't really part of my Aikido training as in the sense of a sensei taking me aside and teaching *me* to punch (again, I already knew how fairly well), but my sensei would sometimes ask me to go work with others to help them improve theirs.

I've taken focus mitts to the dojo (might do it again today now that I think about it) to work with students. I find teaching them combinations sometimes helps them develop a bit more speed and control as you can't just "lunge" after the first and expect to be able to deliver the second. Personally I think it adds to their value of training in that they learn to attack better but those training with them learn to better deal with a more trained attacker. Frankly I don't mind training with someone who doesn't punch well since most folk out there in the "civilian world" are fairly incompetent. But I like to train with those who can also punch better with power and control as well to improve my training.

If your question is whether Aikido teaches a solid punch, well, that's a silly question in that I'm sure many do not and many do as part of their training. And it would depend a great deal on where you train and who you train with and how focused they are on that kind of thing. We had a guy train with us for a while a few years back who has since gone on to become a great independent instructor (in his mind and PR at least). The guy couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper sack IMHO. And couldn't deal with any punch that could. He was obviously quite uncomfortable with any "serious" attack and he'd often fall back on saying that it wasn't training with a proper aikido spirit. I beg to differ, but whatever floats your boat.

So I'm not really sure what you're asking or what the implication is. But yes, I've met some folk who can punch fairly well and who've only done aikido as I taught them how to. I'm sure others have as well. Lots of us cross train and most O sensei's students came from other arts as well. So most of them could probably deliver a solid punch and I've met students of those guys who could rock my world pretty well if they wanted to. But as a formal part of training? YMMV.

Other than that... Shrug.

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Old 10-26-2012, 07:44 AM   #28
Chris Evans
Location: Berkeley, CA.
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Re: back to basics, punch

I wish aikido dojo had makiwara. then i'd know the the committment to budo or the martial is serious, instead of merely "clinging" to the focused view of the art.

I still marvel at how predictable and scripted so much of aikido "attacks" appear.

I used to think my kicks were my best 'weapons' then i sparred with fit MMA players who can take a kick and come in to grapple, but the hard face punches kept them at bay (until i got too tired).

having a strong fluid/mobile stance while punching is good budo. they're plenty in karate that can not seem to punch well even after many years.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:57 AM   #29
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
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Re: back to basics, punch

What do your teachers say when you tell them you'd like to put a makiwara in the dojo?
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:11 AM   #30
Chris Evans
Location: Berkeley, CA.
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Re: back to basics, punch

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
What do your teachers say when you tell them you'd like to put a makiwara in the dojo?
I will ask and offer to cover the full cost of installing a traditional makiwara, but after I've shown more commitment to leaning basic aikido.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:33 AM   #31
Chris Evans
Location: Berkeley, CA.
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Re: back to basics, punch

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Why would you expect people to be proficient at a skill they haven't been trained in?
the fact that aikido describes itself as a martial art yet some aikidoka yudansha that know not how to deal with "honest" punches strikes me as oxymoronic and dangerously delusional, unless you're solely into "pajama-dancing-moving-yoga-with-compliant-nonload-bearing-throws."

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:41 AM   #32
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
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Re: back to basics, punch

But what do you mean by an "honest" punch? What do you mean by "budo"? And you said yourself, you've seen karate yudansha who couldn't punch well, so maybe the "flaw" is in the practitioner, and not the art...

What are you looking to get out of a martial art? Are you asking the instructors you've chosen in the art you've chosen to give you that? Make your training is what you want and need. Choose an art that is most likely to give you what you want. Go after what you want on your own time. Don't teach a pig to sing.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:48 AM   #33
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: back to basics, punch

I've been thinking about this a little bit; take Steven Seagal for example; his films are very violent and his use of aikido techniques is very brutal. Now I know they're only action films designed to entertain, but I do think Seagal has tried to make an honest attempt to show how aikido would work on the 'street'. But is Seagal's 'street' aikido, aikido? Or is it closer to a form of jujutsu? If aikido is meant to be the extension and harmonization of ki in order to restore balance; then the dojo style aikido with compliant uke could be argued is 'pure' or 'true' aikido because it is two practitioners exercising aiki. Street thugs don't exercise aiki or ki because they have violent intentions (what I mean is that they are not consciously projecting ki).

Now I'm not saying aikido cannot be used on the street or against violent or resisting opponents but the application of aiki will not be as smooth or flowing. Therefore if one attempts to replicate 'street' conditions 'honestly' does this mean they are no longer practising aikido strictly speaking?

I know Morihei Ueshiba accepted many challenges to test his art against other martial artists, but was he ever in a real street fight? Did he ever use his art in self-defence? If so what were his reflections on the experience and how did it shape his aikido?

If I'm speaking total nonsense then feel free to tell me, these are just some thoughts.
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:31 PM   #34
Richard Stevens
Location: Indianapolis
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Re: back to basics, punch

If on the street your opponents happen to also be able to take good ukemi and limit their attacks to gedan tsuki and yokomen then Steven Seagal was most certainly promoting a street-effective type of Aikido in his movies. Oh, and we can't forget the ever-popular front snap kick to gedan tsuki provided by Matsuoka in half of his movies so he can do that nifty I'm 6'5 and you're 5'8 iriminage!

I love Seagal's older movies, but it looks like Aikido to me. They just throw in a few broken bones here and there and the ever popular arm snapping sound effects. If you watch any of his demos on youtube it looks like good, smooth Aikido. If you want brutal watch an Isoyama video. Sometimes he makes me wince. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9PQCQV1krY
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:37 AM   #35
SparkErosion
Dojo: 6th Kyu (yellow belt) rank/ Five Rings Aikido/ Seidokan hybrid style
Location: Arizona
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Re: back to basics, punch

In my math class, logs really hit hard ...
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:41 AM   #36
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: back to basics, punch

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
I wish aikido dojo had makiwara. then i'd know the the committment to budo or the martial is serious, instead of merely "clinging" to the focused view of the art.

having a strong fluid/mobile stance while punching is good budo. they're plenty in karate that can not seem to punch well even after many years.
In karate, where the makiwara is a standard training tool, you say that many cannot seem to punch well after years of practice. So why is it you want to add makiwara to aikido dojo? So we too can fail to punch well after years of practice?

Putting up a makiwara is no great accomplishment, nor is using one. It's a good practice tool for a certain kind of punch; it gives great feedback. But that's only one kind of punch, done from a set stance, and a punch is only one kind of attack. Maybe it makes more sense to step back and talk about an aikidoka's need for attacking skills, and how (and to what extent) those should be best developed.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:35 PM   #37
Todd Lambert
Location: Okinawa
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Re: back to basics, punch

Some makiwara training from Okinawan karate I found interesting, where the practitioner is more mobile than is ordinarily seen:

http://youtu.be/XQ0iaMx7XM0
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