Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-24-2012, 01:21 PM   #26
Richard Stevens
Location: Indianapolis
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 165
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
I am not looking for add-ons to my technique. I have twenty shitty tricks to make my uke move or hurt more, and I am looking to rid my aikido of those tricks in favor of clean, effective technique. I see what you're saying, move the body differently, ingrain different internal responses to stimulus, and the techniques will naturally change, and you believe they will be more effective and flow more naturally from the stimulus. I am way alright with that. I'd like to learn more about that.

But at the end of the day, yes I am looking to learn that to improve my aikido, in the sense that I am making something that is me and mine, and I will use it in my life, and my expression of my physicality, my way through life with energy that works well. Not as an add-on, but as a change in foundation. And to impress the hot chicks in my aikido class. And beer.

Yes, It Has To Be Felt. When several of my friends are telling me something is the goods, and I read other folks saying they're having good results, I am curious, and want a look. I'm still going to be a skeptic, the metaphors better just be metaphors and be useful metaphors, and I had better feel a quantitative as well as qualitative difference. But I will give it a look. Thanks for avoiding any hucksterism or condescension.
That is what I got from the experience. What I am doing have to change fundamentally. It was almost a feeling of f*** I have to start all over again. I know all this waza, but I don't have what should be at the core of it all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 01:28 PM   #27
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Richard Stevens wrote: View Post
That is what I got from the experience. What I am doing have to change fundamentally. It was almost a feeling of f*** I have to start all over again. I know all this waza, but I don't have what should be at the core of it all.
Richard:

I have been immediately incorporating everything I learn when I am with Dan back into the Aikido. The fit and quickness of the changes are particularly striking. Of course, it helps that I end up going "OH SH*T, my teacher has been putting this in front of me and I have been too blind, stubborn and stupid to get it....."

good luck!

marc abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 01:50 PM   #28
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,797
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Richard Stevens wrote: View Post
That is what I got from the experience. What I am doing have to change fundamentally. It was almost a feeling of f*** I have to start all over again. I know all this waza, but I don't have what should be at the core of it all.
well you can take a few approaches.
1. denounce that the IP/IS folks brainwashed you, and they are evil-spawn, and you can go back to do what you do as before. This is the easiest thing to do. i'd do it in a heart beat. they are evil, always talking about partying and drinking and so on!
2. tell folks that you already doing it, so you don't have to change anything you have done so far. this also is pretty easy to do, as long as, you stay out of seminars or encounter with those IP/IS folks.
3. tell folks that it's not the aiki of aikido of the old guy so you shouldn't look at it, at all. then go back to do what you do before. also, very easy to do.
4. work your ass off to rewire your body and cursing these IP/IS folks every second of your practice for screwing with your head, then in between breaks, curse them some more. those damn bastards shown you stuffs that messed up your previous experiences. later on, you screw with other noob and have them curse at you for fun.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 02:05 PM   #29
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
Location: Stamford Connecticut
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 382
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Hi Marc, not to be nosy, but is that Imaizumi Sensei? It figures. He probably has insight into all those "stuffs" as Phi calls them. Don't put yourself down, you did learn something for you to be able to appreciate these "stuffs"

Phi has taken over my brain, we will just have to try to get to a seminar and find out what all this is about.

Richard, thanks for the testimonial. It's first hand accounts that make old doggies like me curious to maybe find out about new tricks that we might learn if we can manage to get there
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 02:08 PM   #30
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
Location: Stamford Connecticut
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 382
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Oops I better re read the other posts. Krystal says it's not "shifty tricks" so I should have used other words. Anyway, interesting thread. Thanks for the personal accounts!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 02:09 PM   #31
Howard Popkin
Dojo: Popkin-Brogna 大東流合気柔術銀柔会
Location: Long Island, NY
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 642
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
So, it was aikido, but better? You mention his connection with the ground, and ability to easily perform techniques against profoundly resistant partners. Can you go into more detail?

Most importantly, was he able to convey to you how he did those things? Did he teach you what to do, and have you been able to apply what you were taught effectively?
Hi,

I'm good, but you do realize this was just one weekend. They do have to do some practice with these things

I'm in Oregon in June. Contact Dan Penrod at sensei@budodojo.com.

Best wishes,

Howard

Howard Popkin
www.pbjjc.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 02:26 PM   #32
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
Location: Stamford Connecticut
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 382
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Wow. Long Island. And Marc's at Bedford Hills, Westchester. Places only around an hour or so away. And a former student of mine lives in Nassau County. She studied briefly with Imaizumi Sensei while working at an office in Manhattan. Maybe finally I will get to see what these "stuffs" are. Oh by the way, I was reading with my "outdoor" glasses. I guess Krystal was not saying "shifty" about being dissatisfied with some former techniques....
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 02:33 PM   #33
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
have you been able to apply what you were taught effectively?

but are not saying that they have taken useful stuff out of the seminars and applying the techniques in their own practice.
Took me about 2 years off and on trying to do some of the conditioning drills right. Incremental improvements along the way. Keeps getting better and better. Regular hands on time with someone who knows what's up will only help.

People are starting to notice a difference in my 'feeling'.

Been to 3x Dan seminars ... trying to suck less.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 02:35 PM   #34
Howard Popkin
Dojo: Popkin-Brogna 大東流合気柔術銀柔会
Location: Long Island, NY
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 642
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Diana,

516-489-1278

Would even come to your dojo

Howard

Howard Popkin
www.pbjjc.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 03:25 PM   #35
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
Location: Stamford Connecticut
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 382
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Oh wow, thanks, that would be so great.... if we all knew Time Travel! Dojo was 29 years ago, and then after that, a few months in an art loft in 88-89. But I will try to get to Nassau County to my friend's house and from there to your dojo. I will keep your number and hope we can go there within the next few months. I know she and I will enjoy it and learn a lot.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 07:39 PM   #36
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

None of you guys are coming to Tasmania, are you?

Didn't think so....
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 09:32 PM   #37
Howard Popkin
Dojo: Popkin-Brogna 大東流合気柔術銀柔会
Location: Long Island, NY
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 642
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

I have family in Australia, lets talk :-)
Popkinbrogna@yahoo.com

Best wishes,

Howard

Howard Popkin
www.pbjjc.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 11:03 PM   #38
John Ianus
Location: Montreal
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5
Canada
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

This conversation has piqued my curiosity but what does IP/IS stand for?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 02:52 AM   #39
woudew
Dojo: Seikokan
Location: Zwolle
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 104
Netherlands
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
John Ianus wrote: View Post
This conversation has piqued my curiosity but what does IP/IS stand for?
Internal Power / Internal Strenght
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 06:15 AM   #40
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,797
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
None of you guys are coming to Tasmania, are you?

Didn't think so....
don't think so. too many devils there.

*sorry, couldn't help myself. i will now aiki myself a couple of time to atone for my sins*

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 06:28 AM   #41
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,797
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Diana Frese wrote: View Post
Phi has taken over my brain, we will just have to try to get to a seminar and find out what all this is about.
hey! i don't do the brain stuffs. i only had the pig brain with some picante sause one time, and it was disgusting. i had to go for 2 and 3 helpings (there weren't much left after that) in order to make sure it was disgusting! ya, moi no do brain stuffs! body snatching on the other hand (the other other one) i am pretty good at. just look at Howie, he, in actuality, is Mini-Phi.

*thank god i am way in the boon dock and nowhere near howie*

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 06:33 AM   #42
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
don't think so. too many devils there.
Think of all the natural aiki we have to develop in order to fight them off though
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 06:36 AM   #43
Richard Stevens
Location: Indianapolis
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 165
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Tasmania + Targa = Yes!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 09:20 AM   #44
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 387
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Diana Frese wrote: View Post
Wow. Long Island. And Marc's at Bedford Hills, Westchester. Places only around an hour or so away. And a former student of mine lives in Nassau County. She studied briefly with Imaizumi Sensei while working at an office in Manhattan. Maybe finally I will get to see what these "stuffs" are. Oh by the way, I was reading with my "outdoor" glasses. I guess Krystal was not saying "shifty" about being dissatisfied with some former techniques....
What I was saying is that I know a fair number of "tricks" designed to add discomfort to techniques in order to make my ukes move or hurt more. Clipping thumbs, finding pressure points, crossing their fingers, etc. I want to move away from those tricks into a better, safer foundation for my technique. I want my aikido to work because I make a shape with my body that my uke cannot help but fall into and be controlled. I want folks to move around me because they feel like it is the way they want to go, not because they feel pain or fear.

I've learned how to fight and hurt, now I want to go beyond that back to not fighting and not hurting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 10:30 AM   #45
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
John Ianus wrote: View Post
This conversation has piqued my curiosity but what does IP/IS stand for?
"How to be better than Osensei in 10,000 easy steps" or "utter waste of time propagated by deluded kool-aide gulping wannabes". Not that there is anything wrong with gulping kool-aide.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 02:38 PM   #46
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
What I was saying is that I know a fair number of "tricks" designed to add discomfort to techniques in order to make my ukes move or hurt more. Clipping thumbs, finding pressure points, crossing their fingers, etc. I want to move away from those tricks into a better, safer foundation for my technique. I want my aikido to work because I make a shape with my body that my uke cannot help but fall into and be controlled. I want folks to move around me because they feel like it is the way they want to go, not because they feel pain or fear.

I've learned how to fight and hurt, now I want to go beyond that back to not fighting and not hurting.
These aren't tricks. I use almost none of the pain compliance tricks. I know a bunch, I don't like them, they work best in the dojo. As Big Tony Alvarez once said (of a finger lock technique), "I'd lose that finger to kill you..."

This stuff will (or can) help with the goal that you state of moving away from the dojo-tricks.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 03:06 PM   #47
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
These aren't tricks. I use almost none of the pain compliance tricks. I know a bunch, I don't like them, they work best in the dojo. As Big Tony Alvarez once said (of a finger lock technique), "I'd lose that finger to kill you..."

This stuff will (or can) help with the goal that you state of moving away from the dojo-tricks.
I get nervous just reading that... Who in their right mind is trying *anything* on Tony...

I've been hit very hard in training, broken stuff, cracked open my lip pretty bad once. Kept right on doing what I was doing until the other guy was down. It hurt later. At the time of the pain it just pissed me off... Depends on the personality (or psychological pathology) of the person on the receiving end... As someone told me once, pain compliance is the wrong way to view it. Hurting some people will only make them mad. Structurally injuring, however... And a finger ain't what I'm talkin' about...

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 04:19 PM   #48
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I get nervous just reading that... Who in their right mind is trying *anything* on Tony...

I've been hit very hard in training, broken stuff, cracked open my lip pretty bad once. Kept right on doing what I was doing until the other guy was down. It hurt later. At the time of the pain it just pissed me off... Depends on the personality (or psychological pathology) of the person on the receiving end... As someone told me once, pain compliance is the wrong way to view it. Hurting some people will only make them mad. Structurally injuring, however... And a finger ain't what I'm talkin' about...
Yup. NO INCH punches!!
And non-telegraphing kicks and throws
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2012, 07:27 AM   #49
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yup. NO INCH punches!!
And non-telegraphing kicks and throws
Yeah. I was in a randori fairly recently and a really strong, aggressive guy got fairly attached to me. I managed to "pulse" him off through his contact without him realizing it was coming. Confused the hell out of him. He later asked me what I did and to be honest I really couldn't explain it. It just kind of manifested itself real-time. Oddly enough it really wasn't until later when the guy asked that I even realized I had done it.

Training matters... Kind of a "duh" comment, eh...

In my experience most people who've never been in a fight are flustered by the first contact. Easy to use atemi, even crappy atemi, on those people. Some, however, know that getting hit just comes with the territory and don't worry much about crappy contact. Yeah, it leaves a mark but you'll survive and sometimes you'll take that to get in closer to do more damage, hence comments like Tony's. I told a friend who I was discussing this with to go on youtube and find some videos of Bas Rutten doing pancrase. Kind of like intentionally walking in to a wood chipper... Painful. And when he delivers a liver shot just with a palm strike, for instance, they go down. Good form, tons of power, incredible speed. And that's something that you just cannot ignore. Shut down time.

Yes, I love my heavy bag... Use it daily.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2012, 09:43 AM   #50
ashe
 
ashe's Avatar
Dojo: Tempe Arizona I Liq Chuan
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 145
United_States
Offline
Re: I Was Wrong

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That's because it can't be done.

Not that there won't be things that you can immediately add on, but basically speaking, this stuff is not an add-on. It's not some extra tricks and twists that you can add on to your regular training and go along on your way.

What we're talking about is a fundamental change in the way that you use and condition your body - that change affects everything else and, eventually, is expressed in the technique (it does take some time).

So...rather than doing an "Aiki technique", you do Aiki and the technique expresses that quality of your body (and mind). If that makes sense...
good way to say it. as Sifu says "stick to the principle, and the movement (application) will form around the principle".

for instance, when you stick to the principles of "IP/IS", and then recognize that all movement is merely inside out, or outside in, you can flow easily into many different kinds of 'techniques'.

tiger at the gate
-----------------------
discipline, concentration & wisdom
Twitter-@luoyegongfu
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is it wrong if my purpose in aikido is to be strong? edgarhaliman General 13 10-30-2009 03:12 PM
Dogi worn wrong? roadster General 18 11-22-2007 09:18 AM
is aikido in the work place wrong? emma.mason15 Humor 35 08-02-2006 11:45 AM
Is it wrong? actoman Training 10 09-05-2003 09:49 AM
practice, doing it wrong to get it right. Bruce Baker General 4 12-30-2002 03:13 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:33 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate