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Old 10-23-2012, 11:48 AM   #26
Krystal Locke
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

When people cannot reach a common definition for something and what is presented as evidence or explanation for that something can be as or more easily explained by a word that is more defined, then I tend to think that something doesn't really exist.

But I am a cold-hearted reductionist.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:15 PM   #27
lbb
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
maybe, however I don't exclude practices from spirituality either. Using my analogy of Wordsworth, the wild daffodils may have been his inspiration, which in itself can be interpreted as a spiritual moment but the act of writing the poem could also be interpreted as him exercising his spirituality. The same way as Leonardo Da Vinci's painting the Last Supper could be argued was an exercise in him expressing or practising his spirituality, and not just for the art lover who may be drawn closer to Jesus through studying it. Does that make sense? Or have I misunderstood?
But in all these instances, the practice is still secondary. It's an expression of or an homage to the "spiritual moment"; it isn't the spiritual moment itself. In your examples, the "spiritual moment" is all in the mind, proceeds only from the mind, and whether it ever proceeds anywhere else is incidental. Contrast it with Buddhist traditions where the practice is essential, and where the "spiritual moment" may happen...but where clinging to it is still just another kind of clinging, ultimately not good for one. I wouldn't call the two views diametrically opposed, but they do seem to proceed from different fundamental assumptions.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:39 PM   #28
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

so the practice is the spiritual but it is not to be valued by the person as spiritual because that would cause some sense of 'desire' to have or be spiritual, which is the root of suffering? Am I right in interpreting your point about Buddhist traditions as relating to the four noble truths?

@ Krystal Locke if that is how you choose to see the world then fair enough, however, the way I see it is just because language may be inadequate at times does not mean the reality it seeks to communicate does not exist. Take the word love for example. I say I love martial arts, I love Mexican food, I love wearing my favourite t-shirt. It is the same English word but carries different meaning depending on the context.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:15 PM   #29
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
so the practice is the spiritual but it is not to be valued by the person as spiritual because that would cause some sense of 'desire' to have or be spiritual, which is the root of suffering? Am I right in interpreting your point about Buddhist traditions as relating to the four noble truths?
It's not that convoluted, really. Going back, I said that your conception of "spiritual" seemed to me to be one purely of mind; you gave examples of spiritual moments seeking expression in some physical form. I pointed out that in all these cases, the "spiritual" proceeds from the mind -- mental state first, then (maybe) physical practice or expression -- and offered an example of a different conception, in which the root of the spirituality is in the practice. So, in that view, you don't wait for the spiritual moment to happen; you practice whether you're feeling "spiritual" or not, you practice (you do the work) regardless of your mental state, you don't wait for your mind to be right and then start to practice. If your mind comes along (as it will, with practice), there's a good chance that you'll have what might be termed a "spiritual moment" in your practice...or you might not. Either way, though, the idea isn't to cling to that "spiritual moment" and try to hang onto it, to prolong it or get it back.

Anyway, I'm not promoting that as what "spiritual" is, or should be. It just seemed to me that you were seeking after definition in this thread, and I'm just pointing out what seems to me to be a pretty different take on things, but bearing an identical label.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:23 PM   #30
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

thank you for helping me to think about spirituality from other angles and engaging with my questions
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:23 PM   #31
Brian Beach
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
@ Krystal Locke if that is how you choose to see the world then fair enough, however, the way I see it is just because language may be inadequate at times does not mean the reality it seeks to communicate does not exist. Take the word love for example. I say I love martial arts, I love Mexican food, I love wearing my favourite t-shirt. It is the same English word but carries different meaning depending on the context.
Your use of love connotes the same meaning in all your examples. "You like it a lot." Same meaning.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:35 PM   #32
Krystal Locke
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

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It's probably a bad idea to speak for everyone but I'll do it anyway

When people speak about spirituality they are generally speaking about connection. Whether they are speaking about connection to their idea of god, other people, the universal mind, world consciousness etc.

They ( the one seeking) are the vehicle for the connection. A "you" can't have a connection with another without a "you". The technology or methodology is different but achieves the same whether it's religion, meditation, biofeedback, yoga, martial arts etc. The "you" are seen in context, as part of the whole.

Aikido is a very direct methodology in attempting to achieve connection to another person. It is instant feed back whether it be gratifying or otherwise. You know how you are doing immediately.

You also have to be connected to yourself (body awareness, mental state, intention etc) in order to achieve a solid connection with another.

Spirituality is a loaded way of saying getting connected.
I think that you are onto something here, with the idea of connection. Humans are social animals, born, bred, and evolved to need relationship to other people. We are hardwired with a set of emotions and thought patterns which help us survive, manipulate our environment, and even feel good. We are trained immediately and deeply by other people to perform certain behaviors that reinforce interpersonal connections, our personal control over them, and our control over the environment we are in. We want more connection, more relationship, more control, so we extend the need beyond its function into metaphor land.

And that's where I think we get into trouble, start making up stories, and, eventually, lose our ability to functionally act to further the connection or affect our world. For some, the way in which the connection is made becomes more important than the connection. The method, flawed as it is, becomes more important than the result. Dogma. For some, they look to create things that have some sort of uberconnection and ubercontrol, and then try to connect to those things. Religion. The overriding message becomes "I do something in order to feel something, and so should you."

The discussion for me eventually distills into two questions, one sentence. "Why is the sky blue?" On one hand, one is asking a procedural question of "how", or "by what process". The other hand is holding a bunch of what I think is presupposition, and wants to know "why", or "to what purpose". I think only one of those questions is answerable and worth answering.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:14 PM   #33
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

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Your use of love connotes the same meaning in all your examples. "You like it a lot." Same meaning.
perhaps it was a poor example
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:02 PM   #34
Brian Beach
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
I think only one of those questions is answerable and worth answering.
You might find this concept interesting -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:39 PM   #35
Krystal Locke
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Re: Theory: "Spiritual" vs "Learning something new we can't explain"

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You might find this concept interesting -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29
Yes, flow is really interesting to me. Dropped attention, focus, all very useful and things I try to learn about. And flow as an expression of motivation is one of my biggest interests because it is one of my biggest stumbling blocks.

But in light of the wording I used for my fundamental question, I was expecting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_scattering

I learned about that early in my engineering school career, due to an offhand smartassed question I popped off to a prof visiting from Sweden. Cool dude, he was a sankyu in aikido at the time of his visit, we trained a bit in the electronics lab. And he taught me exactly why the sky is blue.
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