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Old 10-17-2012, 12:08 PM   #101
sorokod
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Yep, and pretty much millions of people training in aikido think this way. And millions of people over 40+ years doing exactly this kind of awase training you subscribe to has produced ... no one of Shioda's level, let alone Ueshiba's. Why can't we do what you're doing, Ueshiba? Because you don't understand inyo. Not, because you don't understand awase.

For a start, read this thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14991

Then research it.

Mark
These are fascinating. I think that the following are missing from your list:

Quote:
* The golden light incident

"Immediately after this encounter, with the naval officer, O Sensei had an amazing experience…The ground started to tremble, and he saw thousands of dazzling golden rays falling from the sky…Then he felt soft, golden ki rising from up out of the earth to embrace him…O Sensei exulted inside: ‘This is a divine transformation!' "

-- Kisshomaru Ueshiba "A Life in Aikido"
Quote:
* The Founder bullet dodging incident in Manchuria

-- Gozo Shioda "Aikido Shugyo"
Quote:
* The Founder lifting/moving heavy objects no one else could lift/move.

"He utilized his monstrous power to move rocks and logs, earning fame for having the power of an ox. One day after 50 or more volunteer workers had failed to move a giant tree, the founder went up to the tree and using ki-power grasped the trunk and gave a tremendous heave. The great tree swayed. After a few more tries, the roots were so loosened that the volunteers were easily able to move it the next time around. The story grew and spread throughout the faith until it was rumored that "Ueshiba had picked up and carried" an object weighing almost 4,000 kilograms!"

-- Kisshomaru Ueshiba "Founder of Aikido" (http://members.aikidojournal.com/pri...rivate-school/)
There may be several reasons for this

1. these don't fit into your current understanding of what the Founder was doing
2. these are just a hagiography for a founder of a martial art - and so you don't take them seriously
3. you think they are irrelevantto the discussion.

If its 2 or 3, can you say something about how you avoid cherry picking just the information that fits your views?

Finally here is a quote from Gaku Homma, who was the last uchi deshi of the Founder, that may be relevant:
Quote:
Speaking from experience, I can relate my feelings about being an uchideshi and uke to the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba. Perhaps only those students who actually practiced with the Founder will truly understand my feelings. As full-time students of the Founder, our respect for him was of course paramount. Especially towards the end of his life, if the Founder asked his students to "push against him as hard as they could", there was not one student among us who could do that. It was not that we were not able to physically push him, it was that we couldn't.

At the age of eighty-six, the Founder commanded so much respect for his life and accomplishments, that no student of any rank, even 7th or 8th dan, were able to breach this level of respect. Beyond the obvious differences in rank and experience, I feel this was part of the true "Ki" power the Founder possessed. It is understandable when looking at old photos of the Founder resisting the efforts of ten students pushing on his body to think it looks like magic. As one who was there, his power was derived from his presence, not from magic. At the height of his physical prowess, I have no doubt that he used technique to keep students from overpowering him. I attribute his powers at the age of 86 to real "Sensei power", the personal power he possessed after a life time of hardships and accomplishments. Not only in the world of Martial arts, leaders world --wide who have reached this level command this type of respect from those around them".

http://www.nippon-kan.org/abroad/sco..._scotland.html

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Old 10-17-2012, 12:53 PM   #102
MM
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So you have read some text, in translation, of material that not even the direct students themselves are comfortable stating that they understand, but it is so clear to you that you actually know what the specific training methods are?

Can you provide some details about these personal experiences you have correlated?

Are you talking about your personal experiences that you have had travelling around Japan or something?

Or are you talking about other's personal experiences that you have informed yourself of textually? It is the latter, right?
First para question, yeah. But not just me, at least hundreds of people now.

No, sorry, some things are done in confidence. I know that doesn't help.

Or something, yes.

No and no.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
You are continually contrasting what you call "Modern Aikido" with something that you consider to be "Ueshiba's Aiki." I don't see how you have any logical basis to claim any knowledge of "Ueshiba's Aiki." CERTAINLY you do not have any logical basis to challenge someone who trained closely with someone who trained closely with Ueshiba, on what is or is not the essence of Aikido.
Hmmm ... let me follow the logic here. You don't know any of my training history, any of my research, any of the people I've trained with, but you're CERTAIN I do not have a logical basis of challenge for the essence of aiki? I would disagree, but I also understand your dilemna in that I am going against long years of tradition. I certainly am not doing so with malice.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
But I don't really understand why it matters so much. So "Modern Aikido" doesn't do it for you, and you've found some new way to train that helps you progress along a path that you like better. Why not call it, like "21st century internal power training," or "Internal Strength Methods Inspired by Various Japanese and Chinese Systems," or "Old men in t-shirts pushing on each other with confused looks on their faces."
Because it's Ueshiba's aiki. Long ago, when millions of people stated the earth was flat, did that make the very few who said it was round, wrong? Being Ueshiba's aiki, it should be part of Aikido. Coupled with Modern Aikido's spiritual ideology (promoted by Kisshomaru), Ueshiba's aiki would make Modern Aikido absolutely come alive and stand out even more so. That's what I'd like to see, not just one Ueshiba popping up, but hundreds.

Mark
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:26 PM   #103
Cliff Judge
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
First para question, yeah. But not just me, at least hundreds of people now.

No, sorry, some things are done in confidence. I know that doesn't help.

Or something, yes.

No and no.
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hmmm ... let me follow the logic here. You don't know any of my training history, any of my research, any of the people I've trained with, but you're CERTAIN I do not have a logical basis of challenge for the essence of aiki? I would disagree, but I also understand your dilemna in that I am going against long years of tradition. I certainly am not doing so with malice.
I am asking you to support your arguments with information about your training history, research, and people you have trained with. And you are not forthcoming, citing confidentiality.

You cannot make a logical argument from sealed information. I am therefore completely right to call bullshit on your claims of superior understanding of the nature of aiki to anyone who has earned the right to post in the VoE forum, let alone someone who trained closely with Saito Sensei, who trained closely with Ueshiba.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Long ago, when millions of people stated the earth was flat, did that make the very few who said it was round, wrong?
Today, billions of people know the earth is round without ever having seen its curvature. They trust what they were properly taught in school by the authority of their teachers. And yet today, there are people who believe the world is actually flat. Or that there are actually four parallel earths on this one planet, each about 6 hours apart.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:57 PM   #104
MM
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I am asking you to support your arguments with information about your training history, research, and people you have trained with. And you are not forthcoming, citing confidentiality.

You cannot make a logical argument from sealed information. I am therefore completely right to call bullshit on your claims of superior understanding of the nature of aiki to anyone who has earned the right to post in the VoE forum, let alone someone who trained closely with Saito Sensei, who trained closely with Ueshiba.

Today, billions of people know the earth is round without ever having seen its curvature. They trust what they were properly taught in school by the authority of their teachers. And yet today, there are people who believe the world is actually flat. Or that there are actually four parallel earths on this one planet, each about 6 hours apart.
Considering I probably have five hundred or more posts dealing with this issue's research, I'd say you're ignoring a rather large amount, wanting what? The answers spoon fed to you? I would suggest that you have a rather extensive talk with Gleason. You are, ASU, right? Perhaps a shihan might sway you? Although I'm beginning to doubt it.

There are lots of people who know my training history. Some is listed here. So, not exactly sealed. I've given you enough information to start your own research. And until you do that, no, you don't have any right to call BS. Put in the time and effort I have and then come back to talk with me. I put forth my theories based upon years of experience and research. I stand by them. You put forth some other person is right because they are in the Voices of Experience and ask me to be forthcoming?

And millions of people trusted their betters and highly educated scientists when they were told the earth was flat. Your point?
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:00 PM   #105
DH
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

It's probably a fair question to ask Mark his qualifications to doubt things from a VOE column.
But be careful about calling BS, Cliff, Makr has done his homework and spent tens of thousands of dollars on research including hands on testing. Secondly, I might suggest you're going to get bit on many levels when hundreds of teachers and shihans happen to agree with what Mark (and I) are saying.

Mark and now over a thousand others have been in rooms, some with up to four Shihan present from different affiliations and they keep seeing it happen over and over. Mark, is not being cagey, about what he has personally seen happen, he is being extremely polite.
I am NEVER going to name names. There are far too many people who have been present in open rooms during some pretty dramatic goings on.

I don't consider this adversarial. Both the research and the results are compelling enough that more and more Aikido teachers are out pursuing many...I say again...many, venues that offer this type of teaching.
Lack of awareness of the pedagogy of the things being discussed is of course troubling within the discussion. The research has to take place on your part. Of course there is a vetting process that needs to be undertaken by those in doubt. I suggest it take place both academically and physically

To try an answer your questions, I will offer one last time:
Ueshiba's training models and exercises were not his
His descriptions were not his
Many/most of his sayings were edited versions of pre-existing internal training dogma
The sum total of his words on training and expression are echos of other works describing internal training. It is no coincidence that the arts containing the same terminology and sayings he was quoting and borrowing from also created what???
Budo giants with unusual strength.

Aiki and awase again
_________________________________________

The classic model was aiki as a union of opposites-BEFORE- awase. It is in my tag line from Shirata -yet another giant.
1. Place the immovable body (there is that nagging Ueshiba example again eh?)
2. Into an an invincible position (awase)
_______________________________________________

As far as understanding goes I continue to pose questions.
How did Ueshiba generate this power with a tree? By "fitting in" with the tree?
How did he stop Tenryu? By fitting in with him? He didn't do anything.
Why did he do push testing? Was that awase?
How?
What was he doing?
How did his description of Heaven/earth/man fit in with a push test?
What is Mountain echo?
Who can do it?
Why did he answer that aiki was a circle with opposing forces?
Why did the things he was saying appear from famous Swordsman after training at the Katori shrine in 1451 who also claimed..... it gave him power?
Explain his answer regarding dual opposing spirals?
Why are there hundreds of men in the ICMA who use the same terms Ueshiba used who have....wait...unusual soft power?
How did this happen, Cliff?

If teachers really understand what Ueshiba was talking about, then why do THEY feel like anyone else I can pull off the street anywhere in the world. Yet, those of us you are debating continue to exhibit a growing unusual strength and soft power to one degree or another. You know, the qualities more in keeping with many of the things Ueshiba was noted for?
How is this happening over and over Cliff and the number of people doing it...are growing?
Could it possibly be because we in fact do know what we are talking about? Has that thought crossed your mind?

Qualifications come in many forms. Cliff. The most telling being what people can actually do. Our understanding in budo, resides in our hands, not in our teachers, not in our "years-in," not in our keyboards...but in our hands.
So, if we remove waza from the equation, and someone feels very powerful and freakishly soft, compelling and controlling,
And then
Someone claims understanding they feel as normal as anyone else...what does that REALLY say about both their understanding?
Cliff_______________________________?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-17-2012 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:05 PM   #106
Cliff Judge
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Considering I probably have five hundred or more posts dealing with this issue's research, I'd say you're ignoring a rather large amount, wanting what? The answers spoon fed to you? I would suggest that you have a rather extensive talk with Gleason. You are, ASU, right? Perhaps a shihan might sway you? Although I'm beginning to doubt it.

There are lots of people who know my training history. Some is listed here. So, not exactly sealed. I've given you enough information to start your own research. And until you do that, no, you don't have any right to call BS. Put in the time and effort I have and then come back to talk with me. I put forth my theories based upon years of experience and research. I stand by them. You put forth some other person is right because they are in the Voices of Experience and ask me to be forthcoming?

And millions of people trusted their betters and highly educated scientists when they were told the earth was flat. Your point?
You can forum post all you want, that gives you no right to argue anything about what Osensei could do, what he said, what he taught, or what he didn't teach. You weren't there, he didn't teach you, you are not part of that chain of information transfer.

It is a matter of ownership - you own your own experiences, insights you have earned through training, stuff gleaned from conversations, random little thoughts you have reading the translations or whatever that inspire you to go try something new. My advice is to argue in those terms rather than claiming an understanding of Ueshiba and "Ueshiba's aiki" that you don't have.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:39 PM   #107
gregstec
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Cliff, if you want to get direct answers to your questions as well as a hands on feel for what is being discussed here, why don't you consider one of the workshops with Dan that are relatively in your neck of the woods:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21866 - Richmond, VA

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21734 - Hainesport, NJ

If you are serious about your budo, these are two opportunities that should be very informative.

Greg
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:31 PM   #108
MM
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
You can forum post all you want, that gives you no right to argue anything about what Osensei could do, what he said, what he taught, or what he didn't teach. You weren't there, he didn't teach you, you are not part of that chain of information transfer.

It is a matter of ownership - you own your own experiences, insights you have earned through training, stuff gleaned from conversations, random little thoughts you have reading the translations or whatever that inspire you to go try something new. My advice is to argue in those terms rather than claiming an understanding of Ueshiba and "Ueshiba's aiki" that you don't have.
You would have to know my training history and experiences to state whether or not I have that right. Something you stated you did not. Even if you did know that, by your own logic, you, personally, would have to have been there with Ueshiba, have Ueshiba teach you, and be a part of that chain of information transfer to know for sure if that information was different from mine. Either way, logically, your argument fails

And you would have to know exactly what Ueshiba's aiki is that you can state that I do not have that knowledge. So far, you have not provided yourself as knowing that. Logically, your argument fails here, too.

So, by your very own post's logic, you have no basis whatsoever to actually state either of those propositions.

Now, let's start over since that gets us nowhere but round and round in circles.

Go through my research and point to where your experiences show that I am not on solid ground. Point to research that invalidates mine. Got to seminars with exponents of aiki. Not seminar, seminars. Not exponent, but exponents. Then point to where my theories are invalid. Probably a thousand posts of mine here on Aikiweb deal with a lot of research and experiences. You have touched upon none of them.

Then, when you've done that, there are the posts of (in no particular order) Dan Harden, Rob Liberti, Marc Abrams, Chris Li, Greg Steckel, Howard Popkin, to name a few. Once you've started, other names will show up and point to where one can go for seminars or training and research.

Personally, if I was in your organization, I'd train and talk to Bill Gleason first. Great training with a top level aikido shihan who will speak his mind. (I'm assuming you've already trained with Saotome and gotten some hands on time with him, of course.)

Or you can just keep posting that I don't know what I'm talking about without anything to support it.

The view of awase with the train example still doesn't equal Ueshiba's aiki.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:48 PM   #109
Cliff Judge
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Or you can just keep posting that I don't know what I'm talking about without anything to support it.
That's it exactly! You don't know what you are talking about, without anything to support it.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:30 PM   #110
stan baker
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
That's it exactly! You don't know what you are talking about, without anything to support it.
Hi Cliff
you should get out more

stan
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:02 AM   #111
wxyzabc
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Imho it's not good to deride anyone's ability if you haven't met them...or practised with them. What we can sometimes see in videos etc is not what can be felt..they don't always go together.

Further why would anyone want to create a situation of tension, whereby if you did meet you wouldn't do so without some goodwill?

The problem lies with when people push there own beliefs/knowledge into the faces of others without due care...

Quietly quietly is the way ^^

Lee
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:02 AM   #112
Chris Li
 
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Lee Price wrote: View Post
Imho it's not good to deride anyone's ability if you haven't met them...or practised with them. What we can sometimes see in videos etc is not what can be felt..they don't always go together.

Further why would anyone want to create a situation of tension, whereby if you did meet you wouldn't do so without some goodwill?

The problem lies with when people push there own beliefs/knowledge into the faces of others without due care...

Quietly quietly is the way ^^

Lee
Some of us have been discussing this over the internet for 15 years and more. If nobody talked about their beliefs/knowledge it would have been a much shorter and less fruitful conversation.

I, for one, am more than happy that Dan spent years shoving this stuff in my face.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-18-2012, 03:58 AM   #113
MM
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
That's it exactly! You don't know what you are talking about, without anything to support it.
I'm trying to get you to see that you're guilty of the exact same thing you're accusing me of. So by your own logic, how can you be right?

Going beyond that, it only appears to you that I have no support. I tried pointing you to where it was but you ignore it. Not much I can do when one half of the conversation is only saying, not true you don't know, without research or experience to aid in the discussion. Mine is there, I just asked you to research it ( posts, seminars, talks, etc) yourself instead of spoon feeding it to you and find the parts where you believe I am wrong and why.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:09 AM   #114
Cliff Judge
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I'm trying to get you to see that you're guilty of the exact same thing you're accusing me of. So by your own logic, how can you be right?

Going beyond that, it only appears to you that I have no support. I tried pointing you to where it was but you ignore it. Not much I can do when one half of the conversation is only saying, not true you don't know, without research or experience to aid in the discussion. Mine is there, I just asked you to research it ( posts, seminars, talks, etc) yourself instead of spoon feeding it to you and find the parts where you believe I am wrong and why.
Yeah, right. Next time you are pulled over, tell the cop you don't have your license on you but you went to the DMV multiple times and blogged about it, so clearly you weren't speeding.

"Ueshiba's aiki," Mark. If you have any right to speak of this thing with authority it should be extremely straightforward to explain.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:34 AM   #115
wxyzabc
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Some of us have been discussing this over the internet for 15 years and more. If nobody talked about their beliefs/knowledge it would have been a much shorter and less fruitful conversation.

I, for one, am more than happy that Dan spent years shoving this stuff in my face.

Best,

Chris
Hya Chris..that's fair enough. Some of us have also spent many a year reading the same things ^^

All the best.....I understand you're coming to Japan soon...where are you going to?

Lee

Last edited by wxyzabc : 10-18-2012 at 05:36 AM. Reason: My grammar is not getting any better ; )
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:00 AM   #116
MM
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Yeah, right. Next time you are pulled over, tell the cop you don't have your license on you but you went to the DMV multiple times and blogged about it, so clearly you weren't speeding.

"Ueshiba's aiki," Mark. If you have any right to speak of this thing with authority it should be extremely straightforward to explain.
If the supposed cop is not an official LEO, trying to exert authority that he/she does not have, then there is no issue. *shrug* Not sure what picture you're trying to paint here. Perhaps if David Alexander had posted stating that he had learned straight from Ueshiba that the secret to aikido was awase, then, your example could possibly be valid. (Although even then, that flies in the face of all the historical evidence from everyone else who talked about Ueshiba). But, a friend of the friend of the cop's friend, pulling people over and asking for licenses? Not sure that's going to work very well in the real world.

Now, how about back to the topic? You keep trying to move us away. If you want to talk about me, open a new thread somewhere else. Awase vs aiki as being the unique aspect to aikido. Any thoughts on that? Research?

Mark
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:37 AM   #117
Marc Abrams
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Cliff:

Personal attacks do not lead to any great understandings and they bridge no gaps. If you want to get personal, then come to a seminar and meet a bunch of us as we sludge are way thru this stuff (Dan teaching the seminar). First weekend in December is the next Dan Harden seminar at my dojo. Put your preconceived ideas to the test IN PERSON, UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL. Chris Li touched on a similar theme. Most of us thought that Dan was full of bovine digested material and we were willing to discover for ourselves what was and what was not the case. Where we are today is a testament to the integrity of the character of all of us.

If you are not willing to do that, then at least spare the rest of us by stopping these personal attacks on someone you have never met and don't know. Look back at my posts. I was guilty of engaging in personal attacks and have mostly backed away from doing so, because this approach has not resulted in any measurable gains.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:51 AM   #118
sorokod
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

I participated in one of Dan's seminars and thought that the body skills he was teaching were real and interesting. I also think that they aren't related to anything the Founder was doing.

You can have one without the other.

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Old 10-18-2012, 08:29 AM   #119
Cliff Judge
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It's probably a fair question to ask Mark his qualifications to doubt things from a VOE column.
But be careful about calling BS, Cliff, Makr has done his homework and spent tens of thousands of dollars on research including hands on testing. Secondly, I might suggest you're going to get bit on many levels when hundreds of teachers and shihans happen to agree with what Mark (and I) are saying.

Mark and now over a thousand others have been in rooms, some with up to four Shihan present from different affiliations and they keep seeing it happen over and over. Mark, is not being cagey, about what he has personally seen happen, he is being extremely polite.
I am NEVER going to name names. There are far too many people who have been present in open rooms during some pretty dramatic goings on.

I don't consider this adversarial. Both the research and the results are compelling enough that more and more Aikido teachers are out pursuing many...I say again...many, venues that offer this type of teaching.
Lack of awareness of the pedagogy of the things being discussed is of course troubling within the discussion. The research has to take place on your part. Of course there is a vetting process that needs to be undertaken by those in doubt. I suggest it take place both academically and physically

To try an answer your questions, I will offer one last time:
Ueshiba's training models and exercises were not his
His descriptions were not his
Many/most of his sayings were edited versions of pre-existing internal training dogma
The sum total of his words on training and expression are echos of other works describing internal training. It is no coincidence that the arts containing the same terminology and sayings he was quoting and borrowing from also created what???
Budo giants with unusual strength.

Aiki and awase again
_________________________________________

The classic model was aiki as a union of opposites-BEFORE- awase. It is in my tag line from Shirata -yet another giant.
1. Place the immovable body (there is that nagging Ueshiba example again eh?)
2. Into an an invincible position (awase)
_______________________________________________

As far as understanding goes I continue to pose questions.
How did Ueshiba generate this power with a tree? By "fitting in" with the tree?
How did he stop Tenryu? By fitting in with him? He didn't do anything.
Why did he do push testing? Was that awase?
How?
What was he doing?
How did his description of Heaven/earth/man fit in with a push test?
What is Mountain echo?
Who can do it?
Why did he answer that aiki was a circle with opposing forces?
Why did the things he was saying appear from famous Swordsman after training at the Katori shrine in 1451 who also claimed..... it gave him power?
Explain his answer regarding dual opposing spirals?
Why are there hundreds of men in the ICMA who use the same terms Ueshiba used who have....wait...unusual soft power?
How did this happen, Cliff?

If teachers really understand what Ueshiba was talking about, then why do THEY feel like anyone else I can pull off the street anywhere in the world. Yet, those of us you are debating continue to exhibit a growing unusual strength and soft power to one degree or another. You know, the qualities more in keeping with many of the things Ueshiba was noted for?
How is this happening over and over Cliff and the number of people doing it...are growing?
Could it possibly be because we in fact do know what we are talking about? Has that thought crossed your mind?

Qualifications come in many forms. Cliff. The most telling being what people can actually do. Our understanding in budo, resides in our hands, not in our teachers, not in our "years-in," not in our keyboards...but in our hands.
So, if we remove waza from the equation, and someone feels very powerful and freakishly soft, compelling and controlling,
And then
Someone claims understanding they feel as normal as anyone else...what does that REALLY say about both their understanding?
Cliff_______________________________?

Dan
Dan, you always have some very interesting ideas in your posts, but there is never anything factual in there. Ideas, rhetorical questions, appeals to emotion, claims that yours is the only true way, but no details as to what you actually do or how you got to where you are. Now, I have it on good account that what you are doing is good stuff and probably worthwhile. So I want to be clear that I am only talking about what you say here. And how you say it.

My problem is that you use Ueshiba to brand your product. You do not seem to have been granted that right by a trusted authority. You are certainly not the first martial artist to do this, and I don't think it is a big deal in and of itself. Maybe kind of tacky, a little pandery, but whatever.

The thing is that you only seem to discuss ideas in general terms on the forums, and you are aggressively competitive against ideas that are different than yours. Again, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with asking tough questions, having conversations about differing viewpoints, etc.

But the intersection of these two things is something I find I have a big problem with. You are claiming that what you do has something to do with what Ueshiba did. You claim that it is more like what Ueshiba was doing than a typical student could find in an Aikido dojo. You have positioned yourself as a gatekeeper to "the truth." But you don't have any credentials. And then you are dismissive and rude to anybody who hasn't shown up at your seminars and been blessed as a member of your circle. Their ideas are wrong, or at least less right than yours are. What they are doing is "martial arts," they will be owned with a quickness if they move that way, etc. And these people often HAVE credentials.

So it is this combination of wrapping yourself in Ueshiba's fundoshi to market your product, while at the same time running roughshod over people who have put time in with Ueshiba, or Ueshiba's direct students, that seems wrong to me. We're getting into things like here like, "Ueshiba's true Aiki" has nothing to do with connection or making oneself open (and ha-ha Japanese sound funny when they try to talk in English).

I dunno, could you maybe show some more respect and be more inclusive when you come onto this board? Why not highlight the common ground between your view of connection and the view of AWASE here, rather than taking it apart? I figure it should try asking...
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:44 AM   #120
Cliff Judge
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Cliff:

Personal attacks do not lead to any great understandings and they bridge no gaps. If you want to get personal, then come to a seminar and meet a bunch of us as we sludge are way thru this stuff (Dan teaching the seminar). First weekend in December is the next Dan Harden seminar at my dojo. Put your preconceived ideas to the test IN PERSON, UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL. Chris Li touched on a similar theme. Most of us thought that Dan was full of bovine digested material and we were willing to discover for ourselves what was and what was not the case. Where we are today is a testament to the integrity of the character of all of us.

If you are not willing to do that, then at least spare the rest of us by stopping these personal attacks on someone you have never met and don't know. Look back at my posts. I was guilty of engaging in personal attacks and have mostly backed away from doing so, because this approach has not resulted in any measurable gains.

Marc Abrams
Marc,

I appreciate your comments, but I am not really sure you understand what my issue is with Mark and Dan. I have got no beef with what they are doing, what their ideas are, how they train, or their skills. I am just saying, if it's got anything to do with Ueshiba, explain how. I fail to see how going to a seminar with Dan would solve this, unless we spent most of our time going over old documents and pictures, or something like that.

Mark started this thread as an attack on the authenticity of ideas presented by a direct student of Saito Sensei. I don't mean to disparage Mark's actual training or skills, whatever they are. I think it is quite fair to challenge Mark's fundamentalist / originalist basis for his attacks.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:00 AM   #121
MM
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Mark started this thread as an attack on the authenticity of ideas presented by a direct student of Saito Sensei. I don't mean to disparage Mark's actual training or skills, whatever they are. I think it is quite fair to challenge Mark's fundamentalist / originalist basis for his attacks.
You're missing the point.

Let me try it this way, so if I say, Gleason (who is a 6th dan shihan) who trained with a number of direct students of Ueshiba states this is aiki, then does that trump your card? How about if I say Howard Popkin, a student of Okamoto who was a direct student of Horikawa, states this is aiki, then does that trump your card? How about if Marc states it, does that trump your card? So, my straight flush to your one of a kind should then be enough, right? Why do I think you'd find some other way of arguing these things?

How about if you present your research and experiences to actually challenge and/or argue the information presented? A lot of mine is here on Aikiweb. Yours?
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:11 AM   #122
Cliff Judge
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
You're missing the point.

Let me try it this way, so if I say, Gleason (who is a 6th dan shihan) who trained with a number of direct students of Ueshiba states this is aiki, then does that trump your card? How about if I say Howard Popkin, a student of Okamoto who was a direct student of Horikawa, states this is aiki, then does that trump your card? How about if Marc states it, does that trump your card? So, my straight flush to your one of a kind should then be enough, right? Why do I think you'd find some other way of arguing these things?

How about if you present your research and experiences to actually challenge and/or argue the information presented? A lot of mine is here on Aikiweb. Yours?
What is "this"?

Where have I said that "this" is not aiki?
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:11 AM   #123
Chris Li
 
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Lee Price wrote: View Post
Hya Chris..that's fair enough. Some of us have also spent many a year reading the same things ^^

All the best.....I understand you're coming to Japan soon...where are you going to?

Lee
Just got back - from Okinawa, slipped in between the typhoons.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-18-2012, 10:25 AM   #124
MM
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
What is "this"?

Where have I said that "this" is not aiki?
Okay, I did what I could to move this along with you, but I'm bowing out at this point. I don't actually believe that this conversation will go anywhere.

Mark
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:54 AM   #125
Marc Abrams
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Marc,

I appreciate your comments, but I am not really sure you understand what my issue is with Mark and Dan. I have got no beef with what they are doing, what their ideas are, how they train, or their skills. I am just saying, if it's got anything to do with Ueshiba, explain how. I fail to see how going to a seminar with Dan would solve this, unless we spent most of our time going over old documents and pictures, or something like that.

Mark started this thread as an attack on the authenticity of ideas presented by a direct student of Saito Sensei. I don't mean to disparage Mark's actual training or skills, whatever they are. I think it is quite fair to challenge Mark's fundamentalist / originalist basis for his attacks.
Cliff:

I do understand what you are saying and a necessary start would be for you to actually attend one of the seminars to see and feel the foundational material being discussed. I think that you know that I have been a direct student of Imaizumi Sensei for my entire time in Aikido. I attribute a lot of my recent changes and understandings in my Aikido to my work with Dan. It has enabled me to ask more direct and intelligent questions to Imaizumi Sensei. It has enabled me to follow his own development over the years. So many countless other areas can be included but is not really necessary. O'Sensei is not alive today. The best that we can do is what many of us are attempting to do, which is to try and figure out as accurately as we can, what he was doing, how he was doing it and then try to replicate that process in ourselves. In all of my explorations in the martial arts world, Dan is the closest to what I can take away from the videos of O'Sensei, the clearest in helping me to see how my teacher has come to do things that are like the videos of O'Sensei.

Without ever having put my hands on Dan, I would not be in a position to say what I do today. Without hands on, conversations become feckless attempts to hash out certain things that become self-evident only with hands-on experience. That is why I have asked you to come visit and feel it before you comment further without having a reality-based foundation. One person did and just posted that he did not believe that it was anything that O'Sensei did. We can agree to agree, or agree to disagree from the foundation of hands-on. At least put yourself in that category first.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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