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Old 10-14-2012, 07:18 PM   #51
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Hi Travers.
The principles I mentioned were of sales and thus that is the area actually and then of course those same principles being used in advertising. I also do qualify it by adding 'pressure' to further clarify that it doesn't necessarily mean 'all' sales principles.

Having been through a period many years ago, a period of about ten years, I had selling jobs as my standard 'fall back to' way of earning money. All kinds of different types of sales jobs. One guy who I had decided to help was a very good salesman and was headhunted by many a company which was quite amusing to me for his life was being a salesman where every time he was he earned big bucks but then he would go and start his own company where he would always fail and have to go back to salesman again and be once again very successful.

Now me personally would not class myself as a salesman for to me it was just something I was good at but would never do it the way the high flyers and experts said it should be done. Therefor not being 'me' I would never take big company jobs in sales and actually walked out of more than two training courses disgusted by how the experts said things must be done. So I prefered front line door to door selling, just set my targets and get my money, done. During this time I even did part time things as well like Amway and a home delivery service where you deliver catalogues and take orders and then deliver the goods etc.

So during that period as far as sales go I learned many 'ways' and principles used from those of the companies I was disgusted by and those which I wasn't. Funny thing was that the ones which were best for me were only interested in can you sell and not interested in telling you how to.

Now back to my friend. When he started up a business he usually preferred to have or rather build some sort of home delivery business as he liked getting out there pounding the streets and meeting people. Thus I was always helping him out. Even he too, although a friend, would tell me how I should sell and would teach me all the tricks of the trade. He had it as a goal of his to make me a salesman so I could be as good as him as a salesman but of course he failed in that goal for he couldn't see how I did not wan't to be a salesman like he was and didn't agree with all the psychology and trickery involved. However, each time he sent a team of us out I always outsold everyone.

There's more but I think that's enough.

Now as for responsibility to sift out I would say no. I would say that type of statement is very rabble rousing in effect and is the type of thing I find control freaks shout from the rooftops. Fearful people bless them.

So don't take that personally for we all use 'reasonable' statements like that which we have copied from others, nice soundbites dressed up as responsibility but oft times don't really inspect thoroughly what we are saying. Responsibility is first and foremost knowing what you want and your own scene.

In fact irresponsibility is being negative about others.

Ueshiba is a good example of responsibility this way as far as I am concerned. He just said how and what his Aikido was and got on with it with those who were interested. He didn't go around putting down other martial arts verbally or even those branching off doing their own versions of what he taught. He actually encouraged it. He just promoted his own thing.

It sold itself. It always will.

Peace.G.
 
Old 10-14-2012, 10:10 PM   #52
Travers Hughes
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Smile Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Hi Graham, thanks for your reply. Apologies for the multi-quotes - I didn't want to bore readers with walls of text. Sometime these look confrontational - not my intention at all as I hope you'll see:

Quote:
Hi Travers. You take offence do you? Well I hope you don't blame me for it is your choice.
No, I don't take offence, and mentioned that it was my choice in my post. That's kinda my point. It's all about choices - choices to be aware of the message, show an interest, or even to act. I didn't have to write a message - I chose to. As it was your choice to reply.

Quote:
Your 'joke' about not owning a blu ray player actually agrees with what I say in the OP. You were quite happy and confident in what you already had.
That's not quite correct. You've made the assumption that I was happy with what I had. Did I say that? I just said that I didn't need one. This assumption is a promotion of your idea - a projection that doesn't exist for me. (FYI - quite simply, I don't watch many movies and don't see the need for one. When technology reaches the point that I'm forced to purchase for the convenience factor, then I'll do so).

Quote:
Now as for responsibility to sift out I would say no.
I respectfully disagree. As a consumer, everything I choose to purchase is by my decision and ultimately my responsibility. If I make a bad decision, the responsibility is mine. It not rabble rousing at all to make such a statement. I agree the statement can be dishonest if you say it but don't mean it, though. That falls into the realm of being dishonet with oneself. That's the biggest sin in my book. (Note to all readers: I'm not accusing anyone, including Graham, of that. If you choose to see that trait in yourself, that's another story).

Quote:
So don't take that personally
Of course not, you too.

Quote:
we all use 'reasonable' statements like that which we have copied from others
.
We sure do. Hi pot, I'm kettle. Did you know you're black?

Can I suggest the terms in the title may be misleading to some? The terms "Promotion and Advertising" are not quite the same as "Salesmanship" (all of which I have been involved in for the last 20 odd years). Personally, I'm in favour of promotion done well.

Take care,
 
Old 10-15-2012, 08:09 AM   #53
graham christian
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Travers Hughes wrote: View Post
Hi Graham, thanks for your reply. Apologies for the multi-quotes - I didn't want to bore readers with walls of text. Sometime these look confrontational - not my intention at all as I hope you'll see:

No, I don't take offence, and mentioned that it was my choice in my post. That's kinda my point. It's all about choices - choices to be aware of the message, show an interest, or even to act. I didn't have to write a message - I chose to. As it was your choice to reply.

That's not quite correct. You've made the assumption that I was happy with what I had. Did I say that? I just said that I didn't need one. This assumption is a promotion of your idea - a projection that doesn't exist for me. (FYI - quite simply, I don't watch many movies and don't see the need for one. When technology reaches the point that I'm forced to purchase for the convenience factor, then I'll do so).

I respectfully disagree. As a consumer, everything I choose to purchase is by my decision and ultimately my responsibility. If I make a bad decision, the responsibility is mine. It not rabble rousing at all to make such a statement. I agree the statement can be dishonest if you say it but don't mean it, though. That falls into the realm of being dishonet with oneself. That's the biggest sin in my book. (Note to all readers: I'm not accusing anyone, including Graham, of that. If you choose to see that trait in yourself, that's another story).

Of course not, you too.

We sure do. Hi pot, I'm kettle. Did you know you're black?

Can I suggest the terms in the title may be misleading to some? The terms "Promotion and Advertising" are not quite the same as "Salesmanship" (all of which I have been involved in for the last 20 odd years). Personally, I'm in favour of promotion done well.

Take care,
Hi Travers. Thanks for the reply. I think what you write here is almost the same as what I said so any 'discrepancy' is more down to wording than anything else.

Like 'happy with' and 'don't need'. When I say happy with it implied 'aware that what you have or use is sufficient for the time being' and therefor don't need. As you say that may change.

As a consumer also the fact of responsible for own choice is quite true. Rabble rousing refers to using tactics to make, or try to make, someone feel like they need or else. ie: if you don't do 'a' or have 'b' then you are not one of us or of correct worth or normal or.........I think you get the gist.
As I said the prime responsibility is knowing self, what you actually want or need just as you say in your way which means simply being honest with yourself.

Promotion, good promotion, again is a thing I say as you do is great.

Even if we look into the animal kingdom and lets say 'mating rituals' you can see these principles in action. The male usually putting on a show, great promotion and advertising which leads us to the next principle of why? To attract. The purpose is to attract.

Now imagine an animal being a scurrilous salesman. It would spend it's time telling all those other females why the other males are not good enough, don't do it right, haven't got what it takes. Sound familiar. All in order to attract them to him.

What a convoluted, complex, negative, destructive way of trying to achieve the same result of attracting.

Same aims, different methods. One natural one not and that's putting it politely.

To finish off I agree with you also that the OP could have been written better or put in a better way but so could virtually all things written. There will always be those who feel upset or confused or even angry with what another is doing or what they have said or written, always. You may be super successful and harming nobody yet someone will be upset by it and complain, usually loudly like an empty barrel. Jealousy is a prime example of such behavior as an example.

So yes you are right but as long as intention is not to harm or mislead or damage then I will say my piece.

Ueshiba once again was a fine example of this too. He spoke from where he saw and left it for others to come to understanding. If he had worried about who may be offended or even that many would not understand what he was saying (all a fact) then he would have remained silent.

Nice talking to you Travers, like your style.

Peace.G.
 
Old 10-15-2012, 08:18 AM   #54
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Rabble rousing refers to using tactics to make, or try to make, someone feel like they need or else. ie: if you don't do 'a' or have 'b' then you are not one of us or of correct worth or normal or.........I think you get the gist.
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Now imagine an animal being a scurrilous salesman. It would spend it's time telling all those other females why the other males are not good enough, don't do it right, haven't got what it takes. Sound familiar. All in order to attract them to him.

What a convoluted, complex, negative, destructive way of trying to achieve the same result of attracting.

Same aims, different methods. One natural one not and that's putting it politely.
Rabble rousing? scurrilous salesman? So, let's go back to your original post:

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising in alignment unfortunately with modern ways of doing things.

The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than.

Modern Aiki?

Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't.

Minds led this way and that way by the fear of missing out, shame really.

As I see it it's just unnecessary fodder for the insecure. Funny thing is it's not even needed.

Peace.G.
You put it all in context with "Modern aiki". The only person I know who uses the term is me with Modern Aikido. I think you're just using passive aggressive attacks here. And as you have been asked numerous times and have yet to give answers, I'll ask them again:

Would you please define what you mean by " talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising"? Please point to posts or people.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts. Especially since you've done this kind of passive aggressive insulting before and it's pointed back to me. And now, your post following on my recent posting about what I thought was "wrong" seems very coincidental.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

Your whole post seems like a passive aggressive insult to people here. So, would you mind explaining exactly, specifically, what you meant? Your whole post is about denigrating people who you think are out advertising, rather than talking about history, training, aikido, techniques, etc. Please clarify why that is so. You do so again with your latest post.

You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

If you won't, then perhaps Jun can lock and/or delete this thread as I see no real purpose for it except to continue your passive aggressive attacks. Especially as I think you're just continuing them from your latest post.
 
Old 10-15-2012, 03:42 PM   #55
graham christian
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Smile Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Rabble rousing? scurrilous salesman? So, let's go back to your original post:

You put it all in context with "Modern aiki". The only person I know who uses the term is me with Modern Aikido. I think you're just using passive aggressive attacks here. And as you have been asked numerous times and have yet to give answers, I'll ask them again:

Would you please define what you mean by " talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising"? Please point to posts or people.

Would you please define "that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than"? Please point to people or posts. Especially since you've done this kind of passive aggressive insulting before and it's pointed back to me. And now, your post following on my recent posting about what I thought was "wrong" seems very coincidental.

Who are you calling "insecure"?

Your whole post seems like a passive aggressive insult to people here. So, would you mind explaining exactly, specifically, what you meant? Your whole post is about denigrating people who you think are out advertising, rather than talking about history, training, aikido, techniques, etc. Please clarify why that is so. You do so again with your latest post.

You stated that people are degrading because they are talking about advertising or promoting aikido in an unhealthy manner. So, please give us the threads, posts, people where this is happening. If you can't, then please apologize to the aikido community for your denigrating them into insecure salespeople who are driven by fear.

If you won't, then perhaps Jun can lock and/or delete this thread as I see no real purpose for it except to continue your passive aggressive attacks. Especially as I think you're just continuing them from your latest post.
You obviously still have the same misunderstanding.

This post of yours is a fine example of what I say in the OP so I need not look elsewhere.

I have a view. I express it in the form of a statement.

1) You insist I must answer your question. You insist I must do so or else Jun should delete. You insist I should not only answer them but in the specific way and format you prescribe or else consequences will result.

Standard practice, tactics employed by pressure salesmen.

Now, as it's not literal but an analogy it doesn't therefor mean you are selling something in this case does it. It means you are using that unnecessary way and attitude to get what you want in the way you want it.

2) You say "Your whole post is about denigrating people who you think are out advertising, rather than talking about history, training, aikido, techniques, etc. Please clarify why that is so. You do so again with your latest post."

Once again telling me what I should be talking about according to you. Secondly giving a false statement for it is not about advertising or denigrating anyone who promotes or advertises. In fact as I have repeated promotion and advertising is good.

Presenting a false image is is also analogous to the tactic of the salesman.

3) Accusing me of being passively aggressive and thus insulting charachter once again will also be found as a tactic used by salesmen which they construe as applying pressure.

As I said, it's not a matter of if we do it it's a matter of when. It's a matter of seeing when we do and learning not to.

Can you envision discussion or debate without reference to charachter?

Can you envision a discussion or debate without telling someone else what they mean?

Can you envision promoting and advertising and sharing ideas without pointing fingers at specific posts and people unless you are promoting or acknowledging them?

Jun would be able to have a holiday.

If you want people to do things your way then talk to those who do them your way I would say especially if you cannot accept that another has choice in both how they answer and indeed if they answer or even wish to communicate with you.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who did wing chun. Always on about how others should do this and that and how others said this and that and what they should be made to do. His teacher told him twice 'No politics!'

The third time he caught him speaking in such a manner he said 'Final warning, I said no politics, if you persist I will take you outside and show you some real politics!' Hilarious.

A pressure salesman does not operate from the budo of love.

Peace.G.
 
Old 10-15-2012, 04:13 PM   #56
Travers Hughes
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Hi Mark, apologies if by my re-opening this thread I've caused an issue. I wanted to test a theory on personality and repeated behaviour patterns - I shouldn't have done so in an active environment.
I don't want to get involved in any history you may have with Graham (I have no right even assume that you have a history in the first place).
As a member that has not posted much, I rely on thread histories to help me formulate an opinion about posters and their comments - based on their previous posts. If controversial threads were deleted in which I was acting less than appropriately, any new member would not have this history about me. The reverse is also true - if I read a statment that I thought was out of line, I could read previous posts and be reassured that my perception is no that correct one. (Again, I'm not saying anyone has - just pointing out the individual accountability aspect that falls on us all).
Let me add that in looking at your post history, I am looking forward to hearing more from you to assist my future growth. This is not a suck up - I'm actively and selfishly looking for people I can gain knowledge from. Your posts are succint and factual - I appreciate this writing/thinking style.
(Reminds me, I haven't even posted in the introductions thread and am not giving you any frame of reference - will do so now).
Thanks and kind regards,
 
Old 10-15-2012, 04:14 PM   #57
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

After following this thread for several days I can come to two conclusions....

1) None of this makes any kind of sense. The OP is unclear as to exactly what Graham is so concerned about or wishing to discuss. Either get to the point and provide examples of what you are talking about or go find something better to do with your time.

2) Mark must be really bored to be wasting his time on a discussion that has no solid topic and is going nowhere.

Sometimes people are just wrong. It is okay to let them be wrong. Sometimes people don't agree. It is okay for people not to agree. It does not have to be threatening for someone else to be enthusiastic about sharing what they are learning even if it is different.

I have an idea. lets talk about aikido or aiki or whatever it is about our training that we really enjoy and are studying and not think that the other guys point of view is some sort of threat to what we ourselves are doing. If we are not open to the ideas being discussed just go read and contribute to another thread that suits your interests.

I've trained with Mark several times. He even drove hours out if his way to help me get to my dojo for a class when my car died. In none of those times has he done or said anything remotely like trying to make me feel like I am missing something or on the wrong track or that what he is doing is better than what we are doing in the dojo I train in. He has generously and enthusiastically shared what he is studying with those who are interested and we have found it to be a useful and interesting addition to our practice but it has hardly caused any of us to decide that we were missing out and had to get what he has. He is no threat to us or to anyone else who is out there doing whatever it is that they do. And as a student is generally a reflection of his teacher I must assume that Dan H operates in a similar fashion. And I do slightly resent any implication that I and others are unable to think and decide for ourselves whether or not to take an interest in other people's thoughts and ideas and decide if we would like to include them in our practice. But it is okay with me if that is what you think. Because I am okay with you being wrong.
 
Old 10-15-2012, 04:16 PM   #58
Travers Hughes
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Hi Cherie - our posts crossed. Beautifully put.
Thanks and regards,
 
Old 10-15-2012, 04:18 PM   #59
Shadowfax
 
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Travers Hughes wrote: View Post
Hi Cherie - our posts crossed. Beautifully put.
Thanks and regards,
Hi there. Welcome to the forum.
 
Old 10-15-2012, 06:15 PM   #60
graham christian
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
After following this thread for several days I can come to two conclusions....

1) None of this makes any kind of sense. The OP is unclear as to exactly what Graham is so concerned about or wishing to discuss. Either get to the point and provide examples of what you are talking about or go find something better to do with your time.

2) Mark must be really bored to be wasting his time on a discussion that has no solid topic and is going nowhere.

Sometimes people are just wrong. It is okay to let them be wrong. Sometimes people don't agree. It is okay for people not to agree. It does not have to be threatening for someone else to be enthusiastic about sharing what they are learning even if it is different.

I have an idea. lets talk about aikido or aiki or whatever it is about our training that we really enjoy and are studying and not think that the other guys point of view is some sort of threat to what we ourselves are doing. If we are not open to the ideas being discussed just go read and contribute to another thread that suits your interests.

I've trained with Mark several times. He even drove hours out if his way to help me get to my dojo for a class when my car died. In none of those times has he done or said anything remotely like trying to make me feel like I am missing something or on the wrong track or that what he is doing is better than what we are doing in the dojo I train in. He has generously and enthusiastically shared what he is studying with those who are interested and we have found it to be a useful and interesting addition to our practice but it has hardly caused any of us to decide that we were missing out and had to get what he has. He is no threat to us or to anyone else who is out there doing whatever it is that they do. And as a student is generally a reflection of his teacher I must assume that Dan H operates in a similar fashion. And I do slightly resent any implication that I and others are unable to think and decide for ourselves whether or not to take an interest in other people's thoughts and ideas and decide if we would like to include them in our practice. But it is okay with me if that is what you think. Because I am okay with you being wrong.
Your conclusions are welcome.

There is not one member of this forum I can think of who isn't a nice and helpful person.

Mark or Dan or Chris Li or whoever who love researching and quoting data said by x, y and z, are thus wonderful encyclopedias or sources of knowledge. They are like everyone else here great people.

Statements I make are not personal.

Mark concludes that he is talking about Ueshib's 'aiki'. He backs it up with all kinds of references and data and argument. I believe that conclusion is not correct. Is that a reflection of what I think about him as a person? No.

Thanks for sharing what you think I think though.

Mark and Dan and David Orange and Marc and the others (I don't need to name them all) have explained and explained to me personally what they believe and that includes methods of research, methods of testing a la scientific proof and peers and such. They are joined and in agreement on those methods. Good. Not mine. Does that make them wrong? Does that make them as people wrong in my eyes? No.

So there is no need to defend them as people when I say something and no need to believe, think or assume I am being personal.

Peace.G.
 
Old 10-15-2012, 06:52 PM   #61
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Okay well if all that be true and you think everyone on aikiweb including Dan, Mark, Mike et all are wonderful people who are simply sharing their ideas and are fine people...and this is all fine and dandy with you...

Who exactly is it you think is selling people on aikiweb a bill of goods and which of the fine people here do you think are dumb enough to be deceived by said unknown member(s)/salespersons?

What was the point of this thread?

It all seems rather obvious to me that you do have a personal problem with certain members. I don't need to defend Mark as he is much more able to speak for himself than I am for him or anyone. However it does seem rather obvious to me that this group is really the target of your starting this thread. and mark being the one member of said group that I am personally familiar with I feel that my experience regarding that set of ideas and those who practice them is worth sharing.

If I, a relative newcomer to the martial arts world, and a not particularly eloquent speaker, who does not have high education in philosophies and other academics, can pick up on it then I'm sure it is not lost on others.

Why not just stand up for what you say and say what you mean instead of using words to create smoke screens.

I am sure if you spoke more clearly and to the point and provided citations references etc as Mark and others often do you might get a better reception and more productive discussion. Having your own special language is pretty useless if you want to actually share what you know (or think you know) with others.

And by the way.... yes actually I am really bored which is why I am even bothering.
 
Old 10-15-2012, 08:23 PM   #62
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
If I, a relative newcomer to the martial arts world, and a not particularly eloquent speaker, who does not have high education in philosophies and other academics, can pick up on it then I'm sure it is not lost on others.
I think you're being humble; you speak very eloquently.

I agree the OP seems like a critique on the "IP crowd" because a big part of their message is that many people, if not most, don't know what they're missing (assuming internal training benefits are something they'd want in the first place, of course). I can see why Mark would see it as a swipe at him and others. Taking Graham at his word, I think his phrasing could have been better...and considering the nature of a LOT of conversations, it probably should have been, too.
...For what little it's worth.
Take care, all,
Matt
P.S. As an aside, because you mentioned him: I miss Mike. I do feel like I'm missing out on his views these days.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-15-2012 at 08:26 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 10-15-2012, 09:16 PM   #63
gregstec
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Okay well if all that be true and you think everyone on aikiweb including Dan, Mark, Mike et all are wonderful people who are simply sharing their ideas and are fine people...and this is all fine and dandy with you...

Who exactly is it you think is selling people on aikiweb a bill of goods and which of the fine people here do you think are dumb enough to be deceived by said unknown member(s)/salespersons?

What was the point of this thread?

It all seems rather obvious to me that you do have a personal problem with certain members. I don't need to defend Mark as he is much more able to speak for himself than I am for him or anyone. However it does seem rather obvious to me that this group is really the target of your starting this thread. and mark being the one member of said group that I am personally familiar with I feel that my experience regarding that set of ideas and those who practice them is worth sharing.

If I, a relative newcomer to the martial arts world, and a not particularly eloquent speaker, who does not have high education in philosophies and other academics, can pick up on it then I'm sure it is not lost on others.

Why not just stand up for what you say and say what you mean instead of using words to create smoke screens.

I am sure if you spoke more clearly and to the point and provided citations references etc as Mark and others often do you might get a better reception and more productive discussion. Having your own special language is pretty useless if you want to actually share what you know (or think you know) with others.

And by the way.... yes actually I am really bored which is why I am even bothering.
The American Indians have a saying: :Beware man who speaks with twisted tongue; their words only make sense to themselves" - I guess them Indians pretty smart peiple; they had their magic mushrooms and talked to anilmals

Greg
 
Old 10-16-2012, 06:27 AM   #64
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
The American Indians have a saying: :Beware man who speaks with twisted tongue; their words only make sense to themselves" - I guess them Indians pretty smart peiple; they had their magic mushrooms and talked to anilmals

Greg
Yes indeed my ancestors were very intelligent people. They only used those mushrooms for special occasions to communicate better with the spirit world not for every day recreation. Now if they had only been less wiling to accept gifts of blankets and booze from strangers history might have come out a lot differently. Anyone can talk to animals. The tricky thing is learning to hear them when they talk to us. Sometimes the animals talk more sensibly and clearly than some humans. They are honest and clear in their communication.
 
Old 10-16-2012, 07:50 AM   #65
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Yes indeed my ancestors were very intelligent people. They only used those mushrooms for special occasions to communicate better with the spirit world not for every day recreation. Now if they had only been less wiling to accept gifts of blankets and booze from strangers history might have come out a lot differently. Anyone can talk to animals. The tricky thing is learning to hear them when they talk to us. Sometimes the animals talk more sensibly and clearly than some humans. They are honest and clear in their communication.
I tend to be more tolerable of animal behavior than human behavior for those very reasons
 
Old 10-16-2012, 10:42 AM   #66
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
There is not one member of this forum I can think of who isn't a nice and helpful person.
Peace.G.
Let's go back to your original post where you stated:

"Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising..."

So, who is doing the degrading advertising if everyone on this forum is a nice and helpful person?

Then you go on to say, "The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than."

So, who is not being helpful by stating that others are "missing out" and are "wrong or less than" if, as you state now, everyone is nice and helpful?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
In fact as I have repeated promotion and advertising is good.
Not according to your original post, where you stated, "Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising..."

and, "Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't." Obviously, these degrading salesmen are using the bad kind of advertising and promotion.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
1) You insist I must answer your question. You insist I must do so or else Jun should delete. You insist I should not only answer them but in the specific way and format you prescribe or else consequences will result.

Standard practice, tactics employed by pressure salesmen.
Peace.G.
So, you just called me a pressure salesmen, which you then state does not operate from the budo of love.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
A pressure salesman does not operate from the budo of love.

Peace.G.
Now, tell me again, how you think everyone here is nice and helpful?

This is your normal passive aggressive behaviour. You use veiled insults and then when you're called on them, you completely turn around and try to state just the opposite. You're not going to answer the questions, are you?

Mark
 
Old 10-16-2012, 03:38 PM   #67
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Let's go back to your original post where you stated:

"Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising..."

So, who is doing the degrading advertising if everyone on this forum is a nice and helpful person?

Then you go on to say, "The message given by such advertising is that you are missing out, that you must have and if you don't then you are wrong or less than."

So, who is not being helpful by stating that others are "missing out" and are "wrong or less than" if, as you state now, everyone is nice and helpful?

Not according to your original post, where you stated, "Promotion and advertising. It appears to me that a lot of what's being talked about Aikido or Aiki wise has degraded into advertising..."

and, "Promotion......ahh, gone are the days so it seems where one just promotes what he is doing, happy for those who want to do likewise and happy for those who don't." Obviously, these degrading salesmen are using the bad kind of advertising and promotion.

So, you just called me a pressure salesmen, which you then state does not operate from the budo of love.

Now, tell me again, how you think everyone here is nice and helpful?

This is your normal passive aggressive behaviour. You use veiled insults and then when you're called on them, you completely turn around and try to state just the opposite. You're not going to answer the questions, are you?

Mark
Nice. Thank you. As I pointed out and once again demonstrated above by you, it seems you find it very difficult not to insult. I do hope you get over that difficulty for the sake of better discussions.

The two sentences you keep repeating (above) and say I must 'point to people' shows me you have trouble with them. I wonder why?

I can tell you again and again and again if you like until you get it. No problem.

I do mention 'bad advertising' but not bad promotion by the way.

Do you know what a sentence is? Do you know it's an idea expressed in words?

So the first ideas mention 'bad' advertising. So if you can see that then we have a start from which to progress. We can progress onto the next ideas, in sequence, and build an overall concept and understanding.

You see, as you progress onto subsequent ideas you then discover that the word salesman is used and the principles of the salesman are emphasized. Only then can you string these ideas together and see what bad advertizing means.......it means advertising containing those principles used by the salesman. So aha! Attention goes to wow, what are these principles that salesmen use?

Ahhhhh, we have found the center, the core of this overall concept.....negative sales principles.

So we progress but we have new questions arising in our mind. "Why is this guy talking about this?"

Now if we have new questions forming we must admit there's something we don't understand. We don't fully understand. That's the process, that's intelligence at work.

So we progress forward and find it's a matter of first looking at the principles 'bad' or pressure salesmen use and then discovering where else those same principles are used 'outside' of the thing called salesman.

"Oh I see, so he's not saying anyone is a salesman, he's being philosophical, it's an analogy. Wow, what a fool I've been, I thought he was being literal. Come to think of it this guy always tells us he teaches only principles, he's always talking about the philosophy and principles,"

And son and so forth.....

Of course you would have to admit a fundamental thing first which is the writer (me) understands what he said and you don't. That's fundamental. That's beginners mind. Beyond that all you have is conjecture, assumption, opinion. Beginners mind, what a lovely thing.

Now finally you actually ask me to do a good thing, a positive thing......to tell you again how I think everyone here is nice and helpful. I love it. I would love to do it too. I might even start a thread with that as the title there's so much to say. What a great question. You really are tempting me to answer that one. To point fingers in a positive way. Ask me again and I think the temptation will be too much and I would have to answer it and point fingers and probably fill up a whole page at least, maybe a book. Woahhhhhhh....slow down G. Ha, ha.

Remember "He who points at someone has three fingers pointing back at himself"

Peace.G.
 
Old 10-16-2012, 03:45 PM   #68
graham christian
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
The American Indians have a saying: :Beware man who speaks with twisted tongue; their words only make sense to themselves" - I guess them Indians pretty smart peiple; they had their magic mushrooms and talked to anilmals

Greg
Funny, I know a few other cultures with the same saying but the meaning is far off what you say. Your explanation would like to be believed as true by those with such forked tongues.

Peace.G.
 
Old 10-16-2012, 04:03 PM   #69
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Re: Who's missing out? (On "Promotion and advertising" rhetoric)

I don't see this thread progressing anywhere further.

Thread closed.

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