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Old 10-15-2012, 12:05 PM   #51
jonreading
 
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
In my view "aiki" and technique or waza are two seperate themes, but I strongly believe the one leads to the other just like being young has got nothing to do with being old but still there is a clean connection in the sence that the one leads to the other- I guess..?

Why should we distinguish between the two and whats the purpose of that ?

Any thoughts on this anyone ?

Cheers
Lars
Aiki is an understanding of interaction. Waza is an expression of that understanding.

There absolutely should be a distinction between aiki and waza. While several others have brought it up, I believe Shioda and Kuriowa both were quoted in Aikido Journal as differentiating between kihon waza and kata no kihon waza.

I believe what we are actually talking about is kata, not waza. Kata is form and our techniques are kata. Aiki is the understanding of how that form works [with your partner]. Waza would imply the spontaneous or natural occurring application of form within an interaction.

For me, I believe that aiki is not some complicated thing (doing it maybe...). I try to distinguish between form and exercise because of purpose. I typically use exercises to study interactive response. I will use form to reinforce structure and coordination.

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Old 10-15-2012, 02:39 PM   #52
gregstec
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Chris Western wrote: View Post
Hello,

I'm begining to think Takeda was right...only one or two people a generation.

Take Care All,

ChrisW

PS It's amazing that so much information is presented on a silverplatter for the taking.
Maybe that is because he found out that only one or two people were willing to listen and put in the work

Greg
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:06 PM   #53
Tengu859
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Maybe that is because he found out that only one or two people were willing to listen and put in the work

Greg
Sadly for me, it's easy to talk the talk...I think I'll shut up from now on. Alas, at times I can't resist(I'm weak)!!! I'm a social animal(sometimes)!!! :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:46 PM   #54
lars beyer
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

Thanks for the input folks, I guess I got what I asked for.
Cheers
Lars
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:05 PM   #55
gregstec
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

Quote:
Chris Western wrote: View Post
Sadly for me, it's easy to talk the talk...I think I'll shut up from now on. Alas, at times I can't resist(I'm weak)!!! I'm a social animal(sometimes)!!! :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW
I like your stuff - keep it up
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:17 PM   #56
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
By Kisshomaru, I mean under his direction. True enough that there were many different "variants" to the aikido in Tokyo, however, for the most part, it was all under the direction of Kisshomaru (early on, also Tohei). And, in general, all leading to Modern Aikido. Modern Aikido does not equate to Ueshiba's aikido.

Speaking of variants, why was there different training done at Tokyo honbu than at personal, private dojos of some of the instructors? Why was some of the training banned at Tokyo honbu?

What is it to me? I think that Modern Aikido has taken the spiritual ideals from Morihei Ueshiba and gone beyond his dreams. Modern Aikido has broadened the spiritual and made it available to the world. In that, I think Kisshomaru did very well. However, what did not get passed along (again, in general) was the martial skills of Ueshiba, namely aiki. So, I think people should know the truth so that they can make an educated decision about what aikido they wish to study. Both have their place in the world. Both can coexist. Only one, though, is martially exceptional. And that one, aiki, can also infuse spirituality to make it better.

If you do not understand the core of the art, if the core of the art is withheld, if the truth of the art is not passed along ... why should the students trust the Keepers of the tradition? But if you don't know that the core, the secret, the truth has been withheld, you are blind to the moon.
Well one thing for modern aikido is it doesn't lead to....abnormality
The other can damage people in ways I won't go into here...then it will be very hard to find someone to fix you....take care.

Lee
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:51 PM   #57
Tengu859
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I like your stuff - keep it up
Greg,

Please don't encourage me...I'm basically an Aiki-clown!!! I love this stuff so
much, my mouth sometimes goes faster then my aikiage!!! ;0)

Take Care,

ChrisW

PS Sorry guys for using the forum for my selfish need for attention. I'll go back to the peanut gallery now... :0(
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:43 AM   #58
Mario Tobias
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
For your meaning, would it be accurate to substitute the term "aiki" with "principles" and "waza" with "form?"
In other words, when hypothetically all we have are principles and no form, the principles might be described as not actuated; there's no actual manifestation. If hypothetically we're just using form without the principles, we're creating a cheap or hollow imitation.
Is this what you mean?
I think the substitution is accurate. They say aikido has 3000 techniques. My theory is that there are only a handful of aiki principles out there. Waza is therefore a permutation of different principles combined together to make the 3000. Although the outside form looks different for different techniques, these are just made up from the same underlying principles. IMHO, the goal therefore is not to concentrate on mastering different waza but to understand the common underlying principles for these. 2 techniques may look different in form but the principle is the same.
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:21 AM   #59
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

I have seen all sorts. Here are some of my observations - of course - every case is different. I have seen no structure - Ki aikido in the UK (just what I saw). Teachers were great, students struggled becuase they had no structure. Yoshinkan - too much structure, not enough flow - and when they flow, they are flowing through their rigid structure, if you know what I mean. I did Yoshinkan for awhile and really liked it - it improved my structure. But you can have too much of a good thing. Well - there you have opposite ends of the spectrum. Another extreme is to simply stay in one school. Each school typically has one view. Many teachers have one good quirk and it is done/taught to death. You need to get about and look around further afield. So what do I think?

1 I think students should be taught all the waza until they know all the waza. If you can't get through that in a couple of years then something is wrong.
2 At the same time, lots of kokyu-ho and kokyu-nage.
3 Also, the notion of aiki should be taught right from the start. Thing is, no one knows what it is, so, all you get is waza forever. However, at least, if you do #1 and #2 you will be ready for #3 when you find the right teacher.

One idea - aiki-age is done well by lots of people. Tori riases his arm and moves uke. That's it. You need to research this and be able to do it from any position and any direction, not just 'up'. 99% of people just do it 'up' because it is called aiki-age (= aiki-up). But to be able to do it well you need to figure out why it works. Then, it will become a principle you own.

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Old 10-17-2012, 04:40 AM   #60
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

From a skill acquisition point of view drills or blocked learning (such as structured solo waza in a class context) is very good at translating/ developing skills quickly to a certain point. However the learned skills tend not to be so robust under pressure and can lead to a false sense of confidence/ complacency and can actually go backwards. Ways around this are to introduce a random element (randoori, sparring etc), stress testing (such as the uke nage dynamic and other less traditional methods) and feedback (auditory, visual and kinesthetic) be it self feedback or external/internal feedback.

In the traditional context the arts seem to already cover many of the bases in developing and honing skills. Wether through solo drills using a partner for feedback (ki testing, resistive load on ikkyo/funakogi and some of the IS exercises that develop self feedback maybe? (that s a question 'cause i don't know enough to comment), the kata of aikido where uke (uke is teacher says nishioka sensei) provides the variability, stress testing through connection and randomness in free play.

A recent interesting example for me was at our national seminar where the application of happo waza (8 directions) was explored with multiple uke, it saw relatively experienced aikidoka tripping over their feet and not knowing which way to turn, this despite doing the happo waza 4 times a class, 2 times a week 50 weeks of the year, it was an interesting example of the traps of blocked learning.

I would see waza as a1st approximation of aiki, paired practice as examples of aiki that might allow one to discover aiki in time - get the odd glimpse.

hmm a few broard brush strokes and generalisations..apologies in advance

best,
dan

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Old 10-17-2012, 10:46 AM   #61
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Daniel James wrote: View Post
A recent interesting example for me was at our national seminar where the application of happo waza (8 directions) was explored with multiple uke, it saw relatively experienced aikidoka tripping over their feet and not knowing which way to turn, this despite doing the happo waza 4 times a class, 2 times a week 50 weeks of the year, it was an interesting example of the traps of blocked learning.

I would see waza as a1st approximation of aiki, paired practice as examples of aiki that might allow one to discover aiki in time - get the odd glimpse.
This is quite common and one of my major gripes. For example teach/learn the 20 jo suburi (Saito method). Then string the suburi together into the 31 or 13 kata and folks fall apart - work 'ti they get it. Then 13 or 31 paired practice - fall apart again - 'til the rework and learn it anew. Same for the kumijo. Now drop them into a more or less free style interaction and they fall apart again.

Even folks that are really good at awase or ki no nagare forms of the 13, 31 or kumijo when placed in an unstructured freestyle arena don't comport so well. What are we learning in such a format - patterns of movement but not how to move. Very frustrating.

Kind of the crux of the waza vs aiki thingy.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:45 PM   #62
lars beyer
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
This is quite common and one of my major gripes. For example teach/learn the 20 jo suburi (Saito method). Then string the suburi together into the 31 or 13 kata and folks fall apart - work 'ti they get it. Then 13 or 31 paired practice - fall apart again - 'til the rework and learn it anew. Same for the kumijo. Now drop them into a more or less free style interaction and they fall apart again.

Even folks that are really good at awase or ki no nagare forms of the 13, 31 or kumijo when placed in an unstructured freestyle arena don't comport so well. What are we learning in such a format - patterns of movement but not how to move. Very frustrating.

Kind of the crux of the waza vs aiki thingy.
Maybe some more freestyle training outside of regular class with your favourite training partner(s) would help ? Problem is finding a hole in the calender but if were into it that shouldn´t be a problem I guess.
Personally I feel good about my sensei´s Aikido so needless to say that doesn´t imply others shouldn´t have their own opinion on the matter..Thats life.
If we don´t like what we do we should find something else to do.
Regards
Lars
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:47 PM   #63
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
This is quite common and one of my major gripes. For example teach/learn the 20 jo suburi (Saito method). Then string the suburi together into the 31 or 13 kata and folks fall apart - work 'ti they get it. Then 13 or 31 paired practice - fall apart again - 'til the rework and learn it anew. Same for the kumijo. Now drop them into a more or less free style interaction and they fall apart again.

Even folks that are really good at awase or ki no nagare forms of the 13, 31 or kumijo when placed in an unstructured freestyle arena don't comport so well. What are we learning in such a format - patterns of movement but not how to move. Very frustrating.

Kind of the crux of the waza vs aiki thingy.
Thanks for sharing, good to know my school is not the only out on a limb
Yeah I was disappointed too at first, then i realised that all the blocked vs random learning research shows is that perhaps the usual training method of focus on drill based waza and kihon at a certain point is counterproductive. Luckily we have the other methods to fix it up (ki no nagare) and beyond.

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:21 PM   #64
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
I think the substitution is accurate. They say aikido has 3000 techniques. My theory is that there are only a handful of aiki principles out there. Waza is therefore a permutation of different principles combined together to make the 3000. Although the outside form looks different for different techniques, these are just made up from the same underlying principles. IMHO, the goal therefore is not to concentrate on mastering different waza but to understand the common underlying principles for these. 2 techniques may look different in form but the principle is the same.
Mario,
I agree.Joe.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:46 PM   #65
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

Fall apart? Well, I don't think it was ever intended to be whatever 'together' might mean. Katas - such as the Jo kata - are just collections of ideas/principles. If you don't suss out what they are and then take the principles on board by practising them in other contexts then all you have is the form. How could you possibly expect to be able to use a Jo in combat by just practising kata? Of course, that is all they give us, and so, with that in mind, it is up to us to go figure out what to do with these new principles we discover.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
...Then string the suburi together into the 31 or 13 kata and folks fall apart - work 'ti they get it. Then 13 or 31 paired practice - fall apart again - 'til the rework and learn it anew. Same for the kumijo. Now drop them into a more or less free style interaction and they fall apart again.
Kind of the crux of the waza vs aiki thingy.

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Old 10-18-2012, 04:23 PM   #66
lars beyer
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
If you had bad posture and bad movement then...either you weren't leaning Aiki or your definition of Aiki is different then mine.

Best,

Chris
I had bad posture because I was lifting many heavy objects when I was young. Aikido changed it for the better. Later on a xin yi professor told me my posture was sort of allright.. sort of.. he said. He corrected it into "half monkey stance". It was at a seminar.
To my untrained eye it looks like the stance you, Dan and others take during your seminars pushing on eachothers arms and chests and knees. I use the half monkey stance sometimes for keeping the balance on the bus or the train. Sometimes I use hanmi, sometimes both alternating.
To my eye it doesn´t look like O´sensei is using the half monkey stance in the 1935 Asahi news film or Shirata sensei`s video of prewar aikibudo techniques.

I don´t know how to describe aiki and I don´t have a definition of aiki.
I wouldn´t even know how to use it if I had it. Maybe I would use it for keeping my balance in the company of others- on a bus or a train commuting to and from work
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:12 PM   #67
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
I had bad posture because I was lifting many heavy objects when I was young. Aikido changed it for the better. Later on a xin yi professor told me my posture was sort of allright.. sort of.. he said. He corrected it into "half monkey stance". It was at a seminar.
To my untrained eye it looks like the stance you, Dan and others take during your seminars pushing on eachothers arms and chests and knees. I use the half monkey stance sometimes for keeping the balance on the bus or the train. Sometimes I use hanmi, sometimes both alternating.
To my eye it doesn�t look like O�sensei is using the half monkey stance in the 1935 Asahi news film or Shirata sensei`s video of prewar aikibudo techniques.

I don�t know how to describe aiki and I don�t have a definition of aiki.
I wouldn�t even know how to use it if I had it. Maybe I would use it for keeping my balance in the company of others- on a bus or a train commuting to and from work
No, we're all monkey!

Actually, that's just some training exercises, I wouldn't take that as a canonical posture.

In any case, if you don't know what Aiki is or how to describe it, then how do you know that's what you were taught, and how are you able to comment on it?

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-19-2012, 03:40 AM   #68
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Fall apart? Well, I don't think it was ever intended to be whatever 'together' might mean. Katas - such as the Jo kata - are just collections of ideas/principles. If you don't suss out what they are and then take the principles on board by practising them in other contexts then all you have is the form. How could you possibly expect to be able to use a Jo in combat by just practising kata? Of course, that is all they give us, and so, with that in mind, it is up to us to go figure out what to do with these new principles we discover.
I dont think that Rob was thinking of "using a Jo in combat" when talking about fall apart but rather the way that aikiken/aikijo is designed to instill a specific way to move, and it´s that specific way of moving that falls apart. Does a boxer stop moving like boxer under pressure?
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:08 AM   #69
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
No, we're all monkey!

Actually, that's just some training exercises, I wouldn't take that as a canonical posture.

In any case, if you don't know what Aiki is or how to describe it, then how do you know that's what you were taught, and how are you able to comment on it?

Best,

Chris
Well, I´ll say were all human and may have something in common with monkeys.
I comment because I am curious and because I feel it concerns me.
Chers
Lars
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:29 AM   #70
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Fall apart? Well, I don't think it was ever intended to be whatever 'together' might mean. Katas - such as the Jo kata - are just collections of ideas/principles. If you don't suss out what they are and then take the principles on board by practising them in other contexts then all you have is the form. How could you possibly expect to be able to use a Jo in combat by just practising kata? Of course, that is all they give us, and so, with that in mind, it is up to us to go figure out what to do with these new principles we discover.
Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I dont think that Rob was thinking of "using a Jo in combat" when talking about fall apart but rather the way that aikiken/aikijo is designed to instill a specific way to move, and it´s that specific way of moving that falls apart. Does a boxer stop moving like boxer under pressure?
Well, yes and no. I mean, martial arts are not for reading tea leaves. Kata is an established vehicle to transmit hard earned lessons from combat. Certainly kata alone cannot convey the complete lesson. Lesson learned in kata are a foundation to build upon.

Working the progression from suburi to kata to paired practice in ki no nagare mode and then randori (honestly how many actually practice randori with weapons or completely unstructured freestyle with weapons) and finding a distinct lack of continuity in tranferable skills leaves large questions in my mind.

On the other hand learning specific methods of body conditioning as a foundation there is an ever increasingly obvious transfer of skills so I find less need to study waza and more need to rebuild the foundation to achieve the 'aiki that make waza just appear'. I already know plenty of waza that I know works considerably less effectively that I believe is should and I do not see more practice of said waza as an efficient means to improvement. The more I concentrate efforts on body conditioning to create aiki the waza does actually become more effective and efficient.

Waza is not useless ... I just do not find it enough to further me along my journey.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:11 PM   #71
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Re: Aiki vs useless waza ?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Well, yes and no. I mean, martial arts are not for reading tea leaves. Kata is an established vehicle to transmit hard earned lessons from combat. Certainly kata alone cannot convey the complete lesson. Lesson learned in kata are a foundation to build upon.

Working the progression from suburi to kata to paired practice in ki no nagare mode and then randori (honestly how many actually practice randori with weapons or completely unstructured freestyle with weapons) and finding a distinct lack of continuity in tranferable skills leaves large questions in my mind.

On the other hand learning specific methods of body conditioning as a foundation there is an ever increasingly obvious transfer of skills so I find less need to study waza and more need to rebuild the foundation to achieve the 'aiki that make waza just appear'. I already know plenty of waza that I know works considerably less effectively that I believe is should and I do not see more practice of said waza as an efficient means to improvement. The more I concentrate efforts on body conditioning to create aiki the waza does actually become more effective and efficient.

Waza is not useless ... I just do not find it enough to further me along my journey.
I agree with all you said. That's just how I see it.

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