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Old 10-11-2012, 10:49 PM   #1
Andrew Macdonald
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worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

hi there

slow day at work and got a few aches and pain from training last night
got me to thinking about injuries.

what is the worse you have ever seen either short or long term, as a side note anyone with adive about injury mangaement or prevention ?

things i have heard of:

one of my teacher can't fully bend his arms fully (i.e. touch his shoulder) from too many hard break falls

a broken arm from a shihonage sounds especially painful

and knees, oh my god knees. as a larger person i can feel my knees every time when watching demostration of techniques, until the blood flow stops. bizzarely this is usually when i am called to be uke. i am go joggin toward the sensei in a kinda awkward manner.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:02 AM   #2
Millsy
Dojo: AikiCenter(Aus)/SOMD Aikido(US)
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

At 17 I tried to throw a guy who was getting a bit rough while sparing doing karate (before my aikido life). Lovely throw until I realised I was going to drop him on his head and stopped mid throw, and he fell across my knee (because I didn't know what I was doing). Leg bend 90 degrees inward, snapped my ACL and damaged the meniscus, OUCH!!!!. Over 20 years later and the injury had developed into advanced osteoarthritis.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:08 AM   #3
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

wow thats is a tough one, how long before you could train again?
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:17 AM   #4
Hellis
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

I have seen a few over the past 55 years - I still clearly remember one incident at the famous `Hut Dojo` around 1959 - a young guy did a forward breakfall, with his forward arm, he placed the palm of his hand first on the mat - taking his weight on his hand - suddenly there was blood everywhere - we were amazed to see that the centre of his palm had split wide open, he was taken to hospital for many stiches. I have never heard of that kind of injury before or since.

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:46 AM   #5
robin_jet_alt
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

A few years ago, a friend of mine was thrown with kotegaeshi, but got his fingers caught in the sleeve of nage's gi. He shattered his second, third, and 4th metacarpals. I have also seen a few people dislocate their collarbones from trying to pull out of breakfalls.
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:25 AM   #6
Shadowfax
 
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Two years ago was taking ukemi and pivoted badly while my partner worked on iriminage. Ended up with a slight meniscus tear and was off the mat for a month and spent the next 6 months practicing very carefully. The knee still gets misaligned from time to time and is regularly addressed by my chiropractor.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:14 AM   #7
Eva Antonia
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Hi all,

the REAL worst injuries I ever saw was when going with a rescue team to the area devastated by the Gölcük earthquake in 1999.

Apart from that, the worst injury I ever saw was a breakfall from a bike. I was coming by bike from shopping (we were making vacation in a small village on the Black Sea coast), and out of the blue came a young guy on his bike, it was a very small and not steep hill, and he just crashed into NOTHING two meters in front of me, flipped over his steering wheel (you say so for bikes?) and crashed frontally on the right side of his face. He gave one horrified look and passed out. There must have been a very small hole in the street or any other unevenness he hit with the wrong angle; he completely lost control without any visible reason.

I just managed to stop my bike before crashing on him, and when I bend down to him, he was unconscious, bleeding everywhere, a tear trickled from one eye, and he lost a lot of teeth on his right side. Another passer-by called an ambulance, but since the village was so small it would take some time until the ambulance came. I sincerely thought the guy was dead, but he came back to consciousness. Then we stopped a car and asked the people if they could bring him to the hospital - and they didn't want to because he would bleed on the seats. One of the bystanders started to curse their heartlessness, and then they took him grudgingly to the hospital. Until then he could stand again but was completely numb and couldn't speak.

That was the worst I saw on the street. In the dojo I had once an accident with ACL rupture, but that was well repaired and doesn't make any problems anymore. I once saw a guy wanting to show off making a breakfall over a large gymnastic ball, crashing with the shoulder into the tatami and dislocating his shoulder. He had to go to hospital immediately and couldn't train for some weeks.
And we had a newbie breaking a rib on one of her first lessons. she had paid for a year but was scared off. All in all, I think that aikido is pretty safe compared with other sports or with daily life

All the best,

Eva
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:32 AM   #8
pastor michael wolfe
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Re: The Sting of the Mat

If you are around martial arts--or any physical activity--long enough, you will see some injuries. They may be small matters--such as a mat burn-- or they may involve broken bones and gushing blood. I have seen them all. I have heard that the one of the most common injuries in Aikido is a broken collar bone. If a front roll is not properly executed, the impact shock will travel to the collar bone area and result in a break. I have seen a couple of these. Not pretty. The mat does sting.

It does seem to me that most accidents occur when nage and uke are not fully connected, when people are fooling around, or when people are trying to do more than they are able to do. When we pay full attention, stick with the training program, and do not go too fast, we are less likely to be injured. Small accidents are not serious but some injuries can haunt you for life. As I grow older, I work to stay focused and connected on the mat—and hopefully in everyday life. There are less stings and I enjoy training longer. Pastor Michael Wolfe
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:06 AM   #9
Mark Mueller
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

I was doing randori with a judo guy that was 20 years younger than me....and about 25 lbs heavier ....all muscle. He did an Osoto Garie that caught me on the side of the knee....a complete knee dislocation....ripped the ACL in half, tore the PCL and Interior MCLs and meniscus.Most pain I have ever felt.....and the most relief when it popped back in.

He almost got sick to his stomach when he heard the pop....then again when it popped back in place.

Last edited by Mark Mueller : 10-12-2012 at 08:07 AM. Reason: ***
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:29 AM   #10
Millsy
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
wow thats is a tough one, how long before you could train again?
A couple of weeks if I remember. The doctor I saw at the time said it was just swelling and would go down, and the physio didn't think there was much wrong. So I trained Karate on it for a couple more years. Every time I'd train really hard for Shodan it would "go" again. Eventually saw a specialist who had a big smile ran out the door and called all the students (teaching hospital) to come and see a really really stuffed knee.
Never was able to go for Shodan in karate because of the knee, and a friend suggested Aikido, best move I ever made.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:38 AM   #11
Millsy
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Quote:
Mark Mueller wrote: View Post
I was doing randori with a judo guy that was 20 years younger than me....and about 25 lbs heavier ....all muscle. He did an Osoto Garie that caught me on the side of the knee....a complete knee dislocation....ripped the ACL in half, tore the PCL and Interior MCLs and meniscus.Most pain I have ever felt.....and the most relief when it popped back in.

He almost got sick to his stomach when he heard the pop....then again when it popped back in place.
Mark, sounds a bit like mine. Look after that knee. My current specialist tells me the school of thought now is my osteoarthritis is due to the accident and the treatment for that injury had no effect one way or the other on my later life outcome. Just something to keep an eye on.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:49 AM   #12
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: The Sting of the Mat

Quote:
Michael Wolfe wrote: View Post
I have heard that the one of the most common injuries in Aikido is a broken collar bone. If a front roll is not properly executed, the impact shock will travel to the collar bone area and result in a break. I have seen a couple of these. Not pretty. The mat does sting.
Interesting, do you think this gives any insight into the effects of Aikido used in self-defence against an untrained opponent?

For myself I have had no major injury yet in AJJ, thankfully. The worst injury I've sustained was tearing the ligaments in my right knee at a Judo contest when I was a teenager.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:34 AM   #13
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

You may find this injury titillating ?
About 50 years ago I was doing Judo as well as Aikido - two Judoka dan grades were having a serious contest and as one adjusted his grip on his opponents gi there was a scream as the other judoka pulled away clutching his chest, as we went to his aid,we saw that the other guy had cleanly
ripped his nipple off as if it was a button..very unpleasant.

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:40 AM   #14
Jonathan
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

We had a guy in our dojo who seemed to be a magnet for injury. The worst injuries I've seen on the mat all involve this one guy. For instance, he was doing a standing shomenuchi attack against a guy who was in suwari waza. The guy on his knees did that ducking leg-sweeping action so popular in Aikido but the accident-prone guy was unprepared for the maneuver and struck his lead foot against the defender's knee. The impact dislocated two of his toes and split the skin between them back a good inch or so. Lots of blood and pain. The same guy, as he was doing a forward roll out of kaitenage, also caught his foot in the hem of his partner's hakama. His foot ended up being yanked up over his shoulder, which ripped his hamstring muscle. His leg was black and blue for quite a while! This poor fellow also fell awkwardly on his shoulder at one point and separated it quite badly. I remember looking at it about a half-hour after he hurt it and the shoulder joint was jutting up nearly two inches. It looked quite grotesque! In spite of all these mishaps this guy refused to quit training. He trained for the better part of a decade and would be training still, I believe, if he hadn't moved out to the middle of no where.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:58 PM   #15
Walter Martindale
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Torn ACL during a judo shiai. Osoto Gari from opponent who hooked heel around my leg, and then hooked toes/dorsal surface of foot around the leg, too - wrapped up, when I tried to get out of the throw, my knee popped.
THEN the CHIEF REFEREE grabbed my leg and tried manipulating it.. He'd be sued for his backside now, but it was Canada in 1979. (also the rules don't let anyone 'treat' you nowadays)
DARN that hurt.
I've heard of people doing Tenkan movement on wrestling mats and leaving their big toe behind. Yuk.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:21 PM   #16
Janet Rosen
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Was present when a sudden high breakfall went bad; guy ended up with neck fracture and mercifully no spinal cord damage.
Personal worst ruptured acl and medial meniscus tear when as nage I messed up and got rooted in aikiotoshi, so self torqued the knee closest to uke as I went for the sweep. The graft has held fine but the onset of post traumatic osteoarthtitis and chronic pain have been somewhat disabling.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:54 PM   #17
James Sawers
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Got my feelings hurt and bruised a few times......!!
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:33 PM   #18
Janet Rosen
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Oh, my initial injury, surgery, rehab period was about a year and a half off training

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:38 AM   #19
gregstec
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

This thread is very painful to read
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:25 AM   #20
David Orange
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I have seen a few over the past 55 years - I still clearly remember one incident at the famous `Hut Dojo` around 1959 - a young guy did a forward breakfall, with his forward arm, he placed the palm of his hand first on the mat - taking his weight on his hand - suddenly there was blood everywhere - we were amazed to see that the centre of his palm had split wide open, he was taken to hospital for many stiches. I have never heard of that kind of injury before or since.
Sensei, quite an incident. But I'm not clear what happened.

When I do forward ukemi--especially a sort of long, diving ukemi, I put the "other" hand on the mat but I don't put any weight on it at all. I use it as a sensor for the distance and speed, so that the rest of my body can adjust appropriately at the proper instant.

I had a guy once--a really terrible teacher of ukemi--tell me how DANGEROUS it was to touch the mat with my other hand. He said, "Your arm will be driven out the back of your shoulder!" Of course, in my decades, I never experienced that. He was looking at my technique but not seeing. And soon after he said that, a young woman following his ukemi advice injured her shoulder.

One of the worst injuries I ever had was a punch to the mouth that actually drove my tooth through my lip. Had to have some surgery for that one.

Another time, a teacher "ground" his forearm across my lower face and crushed some saliva ducts in my lip, causing a large cyst that also required oral surgery.

I've had lots of arm and wrist strains and my elbows don't like to extend too far now, lest someone put another ikkyo on me...

Otherwise, thank God, very few problems.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:34 PM   #21
Hellis
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sensei, quite an incident. But I'm not clear what happened.

David
Hi David
The guy was doing a forward ukemi with his leading right arm, instead of making light contact with the mat on side of his hand - his palm hit the mat, I can only assume he took his full weight on the flat of his hand. It was very bad.

Handy with a sword.

About 40 yrs ago we had a dojo in a large sports complex - we often saw the instructor watching our sword techniques - what we didn't know was, he had actually bought a sword and was showing his students `Karate` defence against the sword - he had memorised the Tenkan movement but had forget to take his arm with him, as his student attacked Shomen, he turned leaving his left arm outstreched - the sword was not controlled and continued to cut towards the mat - the Karate instructer had his left hand cut completey off.

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:39 PM   #22
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

After a few classes of Aikido my friend thought it would be cool to show some of his friends his ability to forward roll, because he had obviously mastered it Had a friend push him down from behind to roll forward.....didnt extend and collapsed his arm, with all of his weight coming down on his collar bone. snap

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:29 PM   #23
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hi David
The guy was doing a forward ukemi with his leading right arm, instead of making light contact with the mat on side of his hand - his palm hit the mat, I can only assume he took his full weight on the flat of his hand. It was very bad.

Handy with a sword.

About 40 yrs ago we had a dojo in a large sports complex - we often saw the instructor watching our sword techniques - what we didn't know was, he had actually bought a sword and was showing his students `Karate` defence against the sword - he had memorised the Tenkan movement but had forget to take his arm with him, as his student attacked Shomen, he turned leaving his left arm outstreched - the sword was not controlled and continued to cut towards the mat - the Karate instructer had his left hand cut completey off.

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/
AND THE WINNER IS................

seriously thoguht, my god. i am digitally speechless, i have heard of sword accidents before but nothing that bad
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:37 AM   #24
SparkErosion
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

After about 6 months of training, about 70 hours, my forward rolls my sanshodan sensei told me they were good, even great one more experienced student said. He's a great teacher, always tells us to go slow. I have purposely done standing forward rolls on concrete with some momentum, with no pain or injury. I told my sensei this heh, was about a month ago, he said, "NEVER do forward rolls on concrete unless you're being thrown". Oops. Most of the rolls I did, others told me were silent. I'm sure, obviously, not perfectinly but man my sensei (he's been doing aikido about 20 years when I asked him) forward and backward rolls ukemi looked fantastic, a perfect circle. I always wished I could do them *that* well, but one thing I learned is aikido, like my more advanced coin magic tricks, takes a lot of practice, patience, and I think also, importantly patience with yourself. Aikido was so hard on the first day, I'm surprised with my flops (no rolls yet at that point!) I didn't separate my a/c shoulder joint then , having the joint pop out 3 inches as it is now... Which happened to me yesterday. I'm posting a thread on this, but its awaiting moderation, hopefully I can one day return to training, this thread gives me a little hope. Heh, I even did a mini randori that day. Found out from sensei the day after the injury fortunately (unfortunately? Heh, can't now) I was very close to testing for 5th kyu, yellow belt. I go to a dojo in the USA. Take care guys.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:33 AM   #25
Millsy
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Re: worst injury you've ever heard of/seen

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hi David
Handy with a sword.

About 40 yrs ago we had a dojo in a large sports complex - we often saw the instructor watching our sword techniques - what we didn't know was, he had actually bought a sword and was showing his students `Karate` defence against the sword - he had memorised the Tenkan movement but had forget to take his arm with him, as his student attacked Shomen, he turned leaving his left arm outstreched - the sword was not controlled and continued to cut towards the mat - the Karate instructer had his left hand cut completey off.

http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/
Take one shinken and give it to a student inexperienced in sword.
Ask said student to strike you with the shinken.
Attempt a technique you only saw some one in another style do.

I'm surprised it ended badly
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