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Old 10-10-2012, 11:02 AM   #26
Tengu859
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Hello,

As far as the research(Of Oak Leaves, Blind Hogs, and an Acorn)goes, the decription of koshi garuma given is not the same across the Daito-ryu board. In the Takumakai, there is extension of uke to draw them over the hips, and there is no raising or lowering of the hip in the throw. It's done more like the decription of Ueshiba's koshinage...So where does this come from originally? Stolen, made up? I don't know. But it is intresting. :0)

Thanks,

ChrisW
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:35 AM   #27
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
How is Kokyu ho called in the style of Daito-ryu you practice?
David,

We call it aikiage in the Takumakai. Other schools call it agete. I'm sure there are others as well.

Take Care,

ChrisW
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:35 PM   #28
sorokod
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Thanks Chris.

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Old 10-10-2012, 02:20 PM   #29
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
How is Kokyu ho called in the style of Daito-ryu you practice?
As Chris W stated, along with Aiki sage, (both principles are done in ikkajo, the fundamental technique), not to mention techniques such as mune aiki and fure aiki, which also explore kokyu (also known as kuki) waza.

These are not usually talked about, but I am highlighting them here to illustrate Saito's rather surprising ignorance of the art. It's surprising because Deshi as diverse as Shirata Sensei, Sunadomari Sensei and Arikawa Sensei demonstrate a compendium of techniques derived from the Daito Ryu corpus (While still remaining faithful to Ueshiba Sensei's Aikido).
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:24 PM   #30
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
These are not usually talked about, but I am highlighting them here to illustrate Saito's rather surprising ignorance of the art. It's surprising because Deshi as diverse as Shirata Sensei, Sunadomari Sensei and Arikawa Sensei demonstrate a compendium of techniques derived from the Daito Ryu corpus (While still remaining faithful to Ueshiba Sensei's Aikido).
It┤s surprising that many posters in this thread are not aware of the Iwama-style koshinage (and koshi guruma over the shoulders as well) since they can google it, but that blue collar worker that worked long hours besides his devotion to aikido such a Saito lacks knowledge about an art that he never studied is hardly surprising.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:15 PM   #31
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Chris Western wrote: View Post
Sorry Chris(steady tangent),

So do you feel that what Saito did in Iwama and what kuroiwa was doing at Hombu different? Kata garuma, koshinage...apples and oranges, or grannysmith, macintosh? I see in the Noma link what you mean, kata garuma, DR yes. Maybe I am just hung up on terminology, like aikinage, kokyunage. Thanks. :0)

Take Care,
ChrisW
In terms of the outer technical application - yes. In terms of what's happening in the internals - well, that's what everybody argues about, right?

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-10-2012, 04:27 PM   #32
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Peter Gr´┐Żndahl wrote: View Post
It´┐Żs surprising that many posters in this thread are not aware of the Iwama-style koshinage (and koshi guruma over the shoulders as well) since they can google it, but that blue collar worker that worked long hours besides his devotion to aikido such a Saito lacks knowledge about an art that he never studied is hardly surprising.
Well, if you accept that he knows nothing about Daito-ryu - then how can you accept his statements about the "changes" that were supposedly implemented?

It seems to me that he was wrong in every example of the modifications that he cited.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-10-2012, 07:52 PM   #33
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

From my book written by OSensei's son, aikido is derived from three other arts. Daito-ryu being one of them and the main influence. Kito-ryu is also a contributor. Kito-ryu means up & down as said by the author. I forget what the third art is.

As far as the paring down of Daito-ryu. From what I can tell and derived from my own research. Aikido contains many of the Daito-ryu techniques, but we don't the very specific name for each one. OSensei tended to put many of the things into a "class" rather than have a specific name. So while Daito-ryu could have five distinct techniques due to small variations, aikido would just label them all as just iriminage for example.

Last edited by odudog : 10-10-2012 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:02 AM   #34
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Peter Gr÷ndahl wrote: View Post
It┤s surprising that many posters in this thread are not aware of the Iwama-style koshinage (and koshi guruma over the shoulders as well) since they can google it, but that blue collar worker that worked long hours besides his devotion to aikido such a Saito lacks knowledge about an art that he never studied is hardly surprising.
Well, then he shouldn't have made publicly disparaging statements.about said art. In fact, it also disparages Ueshiba Morihei, as indicates that he only had a superficial knowledge of DR (something I don't believe).

Oh, and what Chris said.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:52 AM   #35
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, if you accept that he knows nothing about Daito-ryu - then how can you accept his statements about the "changes" that were supposedly implemented?

It seems to me that he was wrong in every example of the modifications that he cited.

Best,

Chris
I dont and I do not think that this is the first case in aikido history where a teacher expresses opinions about a domain of knowledge where they dont have expert level knowledge.
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Old 10-11-2012, 04:11 AM   #36
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote: View Post
From my book written by OSensei's son, aikido is derived from three other arts. Daito-ryu being one of them and the main influence. Kito-ryu is also a contributor. Kito-ryu means up & down as said by the author. I forget what the third art is.
He never studied Kito-ryu, just a little Kodokan Judo with a young sho-dan. In the light of Stan's research, and in the light of greater knowledge of Daito-ryu, it's really untenable to assert that what Kisshomaru wrote is correct.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-11-2012, 04:13 AM   #37
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Peter Gr´┐Żndahl wrote: View Post
I dont and I do not think that this is the first case in aikido history where a teacher expresses opinions about a domain of knowledge where they dont have expert level knowledge.
Then you're agreeing with Mark? I think that the koshi-nage thing is a red herring that got the conversation off track.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-11-2012, 07:04 AM   #38
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Then you're agreeing with Mark? I think that the koshi-nage thing is a red herring that got the conversation off track.

Best,

Chris
Hey,

A man's gotta eat...Why not fish!!! Sorry guy and gals, I'm out. ;0)

Take Care All,

ChrisW
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:04 AM   #39
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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O-Sensei was greatly influenced by Daito-ryu. It is said that when he was practicing Daito-ryu he confronted many problems so he tried various other arts including Aioi-ryu before the war. After the war when he resumed practicing in Iwama his aikido had changed dramatically. Even though he had been influenced by Daito-ryu there are many distinct differences between O-Sensei's aikido and Daito-ryu. For example, aikido is taught from hanmi, but hanmi is not taught in Daito-ryu. Neither is kokyuho. Although Daito-ryu has many tewaza (hand techniques), the body movements often clash with the opponent's movement. Daito-ryu does not include the idea of the unity of the sword, jo and taijutsu. These are changes O-Sensei incorporated during the Iwama period. Many Daito-ryu techniques were not particularly effective against an opponent who had been trained even slightly in martial arts. Although there were a large number of techniques, many of them were not that effective.
Several things come to mind here:
  • It is possible the Saito shihan is quoting the Founder here.
  • Saito shihan became the Founders student in 1946. It is likely that what was taught at that time was closer to Daito-ryu (Takumakai?) more than to Aikido some on this thread are now practicing. Maybe closer to Daito-ryu then to Daito-ryu some on this thread are now practicing.
  • Aikisage and Kokyuho. There is some disagreement on this forum (search for Aikisage), if Aikisage - the principal is the same as Kokyuho - the principal.
  • Hanmi. Looking at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZczkJwsFFA ,it doesn't seem to be a popular stance with Daito-ryu practitioners.
  • This and more has been discussed on e-budo, so have a look "Interview: Saito Morihiro (Aikido) & Daito-ryu": http://www.e-budo.com/forum/printthread.php?t=50508

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Old 10-11-2012, 07:05 AM   #40
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Then you're agreeing with Mark? I think that the koshi-nage thing is a red herring that got the conversation off track.

Best,

Chris
Hi Chris,

So, if we drop that section, think it'll help get the conversation moving forward?
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:12 AM   #41
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Several things come to mind here:
  • It is possible the Saito shihan is quoting the Founder here.
It's quite likely that Saito's quoting the Founder here, IMO.

That doesn't mean that what he's saying is correct - and it opens up some other conversations about whether or not the Founder was always representing things truthfully.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-11-2012, 07:20 AM   #42
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Well its a valid conversation but I cant help thinking that the Founders point of view is objectively unique and different from ours in that that it is "from the inside" with intimate knowledge of the continuum [Daito-ryu...Aikido] and [1915..1969]

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Old 10-11-2012, 07:26 AM   #43
Chris Li
 
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Well its a valid conversation but I cant help thinking that the Founders point of view is objectively unique and different from ours in that that it is "from the inside" with intimate knowledge of the continuum [Daito-ryu...Aikido] and [1915..1969]
Well, it's unique, but not necessarily objective. The Founder was just as prone to bending facts as anybody else, and it's important to keep that in mind when considering certain statements - and considering what certain instructors base their own statements upon.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-11-2012, 08:09 AM   #44
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Makes sense but you need to be reasonable to what extent you apply the "bending the facts" approach.

For the statement "hanmi is not taught in Daito-ryu" (assuming it a quote from the Founder) we have Shirata Rinjiro saying

Quote:

"The stance employed in Aikido is hanmi, adapted by the Founder from the clasical Yagyu school of swordsmanship"
-Aikido, the Way of Harmony
(see http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=w...nmi%22&f=false )

It is possible off course that Shirata is "bending the facts" but do you have a good reason to think that?

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Old 10-11-2012, 11:56 AM   #45
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

That would be Shirata per Stevens then. There is no reference that is a direct quote.

Ernesto
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:07 PM   #46
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Ernesto, on the book cover we have

Quote:
JOHN STEVENS under the direction of SHIRATA RINJIRO
so I could have said that: Stevens said that Shirata said etc...

Are you correcting the quote or are you implying that in the quoted passage Stevens misrepresents Shirata?

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Old 10-11-2012, 03:03 PM   #47
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Makes sense but you need to be reasonable to what extent you apply the "bending the facts" approach.

For the statement "hanmi is not taught in Daito-ryu" (assuming it a quote from the Founder) we have Shirata Rinjiro saying

(see http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=w...nmi%22&f=false )

It is possible off course that Shirata is "bending the facts" but do you have a good reason to think that?
It could be that is what he was told, or what he heard from another source (he was friendly with Saito, for example).

The most telling reason to believe that the hanmi statement is not accurate is that hanmi exists in Daito-ryu, although it's not usually used as a starting position (not never, just not usually) - some basic examples appear here: http://youtu.be/M23L0D9XrB0

Really, hanmi is not a mysterious innovation of Morihei Ueshiba, you see it in most Japanese arts. Further, hanmi is, to my mind, peripheral to the main question here - whether or not awase is really the same as aiki.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-11-2012, 06:53 PM   #48
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
It could be that is what he was told, or what he heard from another source (he was friendly with Saito, for example).

The most telling reason to believe that the hanmi statement is not accurate is that hanmi exists in Daito-ryu, although it's not usually used as a starting position (not never, just not usually) - some basic examples appear here: http://youtu.be/M23L0D9XrB0

Really, hanmi is not a mysterious innovation of Morihei Ueshiba, you see it in most Japanese arts. Further, hanmi is, to my mind, peripheral to the main question here - whether or not awase is really the same as aiki.

Best,

Chris
In my limited experience with DR, I have found Hanmi to be prevalent in the lower level jujutsu waza of the art - however with the higher level aiki DR, there is no hanmi - just my opinion of course

Greg
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:01 AM   #49
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Are you correcting the quote or are you implying that in the quoted passage Stevens misrepresents Shirata?
Neither. I’m mostly pointing out that it’s not a given (in the sense that it’s not all that clear) to me that it is Shirata’s view that is represented here. For instance, Stevens added a short biography of the Founder to the book which surely contains information that came via Shirata but is as much the product of Stevens’ own research (IOW via other sources then Shirata). In other parts of the book Stevens sometimes mentions quite clearly when passages are either a summary of or references to Shirata’s point of view. Regarding hanmi I don’t find such a reference so it’s left open to debate.
Anyway, I second what Chris said, it has little to do with the main question.

Ernesto
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:15 PM   #50
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Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
In my limited experience with DR, I have found Hanmi to be prevalent in the lower level jujutsu waza of the art - however with the higher level aiki DR, there is no hanmi - just my opinion of course

Greg
It's worth noting that not all "Hanmi" is the same anyway. So pointing out -a- particular hanmi is more exact. That said, beyond its use to make your "martial art" more uniform,(and lets face it, we all have to do that to one degree or another in our arts) I can make a case for it being practically useless to even being detrimental to stability in actual combative movement.
Speaking of Stevens and supposed quotes from Osensei....
Remember; Ueshiba never said stand in hanmi in the supposed quote Stevens offered. He actually said stand with six direction awareness ; before, during and after each technique." This has a veeery different and deeper meaning to someone educated in the higher level arts like Ueshiba was. It is an exact term used.
Sadly, most translators were not so well educated in the deeper teachings, well known terminology of them and the concepts they described and thier meaning...no matter how long they trained. I value and appreciate people having twenty years of experience-but as I am being told by hundreds of teachers with up to 45 years in-they are now realizing much of what they were taught was...well...missing critical, known and path changing information
Chris Li is correcting many of the earlier mistakes.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-12-2012 at 01:25 PM.
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