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Old 10-09-2012, 04:42 PM   #1
DH
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Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

It is very simple to state that of the men known to possess unusual power and skill...they follow known paths; pretty much with the same source material. I keep running into teachers who move and feel like every other Tom, Dick and Harry. No worries, no big deal. I just wonder why we want to spend half a life time training to learn how to.... "feel and move like any other human being we can pull off the street." That seems very odd to me.

Moving the way it is outlined in many threads here -will all have you generating power in such a way that you will be one side weighted and "patterned to be thrown." I suppose that's okay if you want to be able to be thrown and want to fit in to your nage and desire to have him control you. All of that will fit in with the "make connection between two people" and "make a four legged animal" model making a joined center between to people.
In fact making connection between two people as an act is a) to be thrown, or b) to be open to being thrown, by design.

For those desiring to be able to defend their centers while manipulating other's centers-an entirely different way to learn to move the body is in order; one that produces an aiki or bujutsu body. That way, is almost diametrically opposed to the way outlined in many threads and curiously it fits in with other methods known to produce power.... and all while remaining vertical!! Retaining your center and not revealing your center, and not connecting to his center is the way to go.

Were one to wonder how logical what I am saying is:
1. Imagine your life depended on the outcome and you were being told to "make connect" or make a four legged animal....to Takeda or Ushiba's center!!
2. How smart of a gambit do you suppose that would be?
3. How smart would you be to open your center up to "making a connection" to my center or trying to make a four legged animal, with me?
It is not a very smart idea, and it is not the way. You will always be open to being controlled, to being late and "reactionary or responding to their movement. It is not the way to exert your will on them as Ueshiba outlined as aiki. When you move with a bujutsu body; they are late, they are reacting and they are open to being owned.

In fact all of the tried and tried budo principles of push when pulled, turn when pushed, pull and quadrant the body, place their weight over the points between their legs forward and back, were designed to throw average people. And most everyone in Budo is beng taught to move like.....average people.
In short:

Takeda, Sagawa, Horikawa, Hisa, Ueshiba. Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tomiki, Tohei and Saotome were all known to "feel" different....and be devastatingly effective...sans any technique....and could not be thrown.
Where?
When?
And what dojo(s)?
Was that once considered...good?
Now......
_________________________
We are being taught
To be thrown
And we are convinced it is grand

_________________________

If we do not feel like them......
Why not?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-09-2012 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:29 PM   #2
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

So you know,..... the next question to be asked (i know too wordy to be answered online) but how is the problem of ukemi to reconciled?

I just got corrected about this today(not giving my center up to the four legged animal) and I am not trying to be a Budo D@#k.

Great as usual food for thought.
G

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:48 PM   #3
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

i know i know, this was listed on "Non Aikido" matters, but this is Aikiweb after all.
This stuff is hard enuff, switching your intent between "not being thrown" to , "take ukemi now" is bound to get lost in the shuffle.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:12 AM   #4
Chris Knight
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

I'm still trying to get my head around no third point, and no push-pull theory - it just throws martial arts on it's head. I thought I'd catch you out at the end of a nights drinking - but alas....no
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:20 AM   #5
Lee Salzman
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
So you know,..... the next question to be asked (i know too wordy to be answered online) but how is the problem of ukemi to reconciled?

I just got corrected about this today(not giving my center up to the four legged animal) and I am not trying to be a Budo D@#k.

Great as usual food for thought.
G
My ultimate solution to this for myself was a non-solution-solution: train somewhere else. At the end of the day I decided I didn't want to train my body to go-along-to-get-along, and that ultimately that was more important to me than the organization I was training with. If your training partners are honest, they shouldn't want you to take a fall just for the sake of them feeling good about their technique - their center is either developed enough that it caused you to fall, or it is not. Success is expected way too easily in most aikido dojos - it is stupidly hard for me to throw someone using my center, and so, I'd be happy to get 1 success out of 10 on a good day, so why should I really expect that my uke takes a dive for me every time? And if my uke is developing too, it doesn't get easier as I get better - because my uke is getting better too! What do I learn the other way? I need to know when I am really failing and really succeeding.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:44 AM   #6
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Does being thrown seem like losing to you?

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Old 10-10-2012, 06:13 AM   #7
DH
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Does being thrown seem like losing to you?
No. Not at all. I take very good ukemi. I still take ukemi for my people....just not by falling down.
Why does being extremely difficult to throw seem like a negative to you?
Why is "winning" against someone so negative to you?
Why isn't it nice to have serious power in your hands and know some sophisticated ways to use it?
Why not learn and have both?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-10-2012 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:14 AM   #8
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Does being thrown seem like losing to you?
Uhh no in the fact that it allows nage to succeed therefore he learns, yes when it is the teacher and it is given to him. Demonstration for teaching fine, but to have me become the four legged animal (is collusion)just so he can show off his "stuff " is another matter and a fine line.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:35 AM   #9
DH
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Does being thrown seem like losing to you?
Was it to Tohei?
How about Saotome?
How about Takeda, Sagawa, Horikawa, Hisa, Ueshiba. Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tomiki, all were all known to "feel" different....and be devastatingly effective...sans any technique....and could not be thrown.
In what dojo(s) ....was that all happening?
Why was that once considered...good, and we are being taught to fall down?

Seriously Mary.....Why were they known for the very quality you seem to despise?

I think that this worth some serious consideration.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-10-2012 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:42 AM   #10
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

It might be....worth some serious discussion....could we discuss it and not debate it?

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Old 10-10-2012, 06:49 AM   #11
Chris Knight
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Hi Mary - hope you're well

I just cant quite put into words what this feels like. If I had the ability to stop people throwing me on my third point, I'd take it in a heart beat. Isn't that what we do in every class.

Push pull theory just doesn't work plain and simple. I'm not particularly a talented martial artist but I can push or pull most people. This just doesn't match up to cerebral understanding.

I will get there though, and will put in the hard work best I can, to understand this
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:54 AM   #12
DH
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
It might be....worth some serious discussion....could we discuss it and not debate it?
Sure, Mary...how?
Dan
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:13 AM   #13
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

I just reread your first post. I agree with a lot you say. I think there is a time and a place for both kinds of training. Both ideas and others too have place in Aikido training.

Last night in class we were extending though uke as uke tried to walk through...it worked well when uke didn't try to push nage with muscle. The second an uke used muscle her feet started gripping the mat and all was lost.

Ron extended and just before I met him he disappeared (that is what he felt like...of course he didn't really disappear) ...what a cool feeling as his extension reappeared and I was projected back after I was lured in.

That is how. We talk about experiences without belittling or degrading one another.

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Old 10-10-2012, 07:46 AM   #14
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
So you know,..... the next question to be asked (i know too wordy to be answered online) but how is the problem of ukemi to reconciled?

I just got corrected about this today(not giving my center up to the four legged animal) and I am not trying to be a Budo D@#k.

Great as usual food for thought.
G
I like to look at it this way - as uke, you don't up your center to nage; you give nage an opportunity to take it. Of course, how much opportunity will depend on the skill level of both parties - more skill, less opportunity, etc. This is how uke and nage can help each other learn without collusion and over cooperation - IMO, of course

Greg
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:47 AM   #15
DH
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
I just reread your first post. I agree with a lot you say. I think there is a time and a place for both kinds of training. Both ideas and others too have place in Aikido training.

Last night in class we were extending though uke as uke tried to walk through...it worked well when uke didn't try to push nage with muscle. The second an uke used muscle her feet started gripping the mat and all was lost.

Ron extended and just before I met him he disappeared (that is what he felt like...of course he didn't really disappear) ...what a cool feeling as his extension reappeared and I was projected back after I was lured in.

That is how. We talk about experiences without belittling or degrading one another.
Okay. But...when you talk about your experiences in an Aikido dojo its fine. When I talk about my abilities and experiences they are coined as "advertising" or "bullying." So I try to never talk about the very real outcomes anymore. When any Shihan I have ever met tries anything on me it is neutralized and fizzles out and they stare at me. They cannot make any sort of successful response. This has also worked with many other Martial artists of all types. That's my experience.

If there were a time and a place for both-doesn't someone need to know both?

I haven't read of or seen anyone who discussed both approaches. Did I miss something?
The same body skill to neutralize aikido teachers works against others in other arts. It also works well with weapons.
The answer is not to extend through anyone. I don't project ki like that. I keep it balanced in me. Therefore I release no energy.
I make no connection-to anyone.
I do not expose or share my center with anyone
They have no access to it.
Where has that been discussed?
Dan
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:07 AM   #16
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

I see we have nothing in common. Have fun.

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Old 10-10-2012, 09:18 AM   #17
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I see we have nothing in common. Have fun.
Mary
I think that you are correct that common ground does not exist between you and Dan, though that is not because he does not have lots to offer. You are just on a different page and one I see as closer to the beginning rather than the ending of the book. That is perfectly ok, each of us working at our own pace and having time to stop anywhere along the path......or even stop. As for me I am ok with what I don't know, knowing that I don't know it and may not get to it.

As for me these days......there is likely no one in the dojo here that can do nikyo on me if I don't want them to......that doesn't Mean I don't as part of practice. I agree with Dan that you should have the ability to keep your center, giving out what you want as part of practice. Years ago Saotome Sensei said in a small class in the old OCAK dojo ('83 likely) when ask that knives could cut vegetables or people, one needed the skill to do both.....choice was then yours. Without the skill set if needed it was not available.

Have a good day

Gary
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:12 PM   #18
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

You have a good day too, Gary. I am not sure how you can tell what page I am on. I am training in a different art than is being talked about on this thread. Dan asked how ...so I tried ...but it was not to be so have fun.

I have trained with people that say that Nikkyo couldn't be done on them...what does that prove? Nothing.

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Old 10-10-2012, 01:51 PM   #19
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
You have a good day too, Gary. I am not sure how you can tell what page I am on. I am training in a different art than is being talked about on this thread. Dan asked how ...so I tried ...but it was not to be so have fun.

I have trained with people that say that Nikkyo couldn't be done on them...what does that prove? Nothing.
Mary
Depends on the context whether proof means anything or not......... In the context of shared cooperative training likely it does not. Concerning effectiveness in a physical conflict, giving up one's center which is what allowing nikyo to be applied is.....not what you may want. In the context of the writing above my saying that was that just because you can doesn't mean you do every time. Back to context.

As to the page you are on....... I think we are reading the same book, though it may have come to us translated in different versions of English. When you say something that sounds like it is coming from Chapter 10 or the previous chapters that is where I put you. This book called Aikido has many chapters and some that were never published. All I am saying is be open to whatever may be out there......

Gary
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:16 PM   #20
stan baker
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I see we have nothing in common. Have fun.
Hi Mary
That is simply not true
You are misunderstanding
Alot the main points

Stan
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:30 PM   #21
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
That is simply not true
You are misunderstanding
Alot the main points
Stan, rather than simply pointing out to someone that they may be "misunderstanding," please contribute to the discussion by explaining and elaborating so that the difference in opinions may be clarified.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 10-10-2012, 04:39 PM   #22
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Does being thrown seem like losing to you?
IMO, yes cause technically you've been thrown and from a combative perspective (if you want to call your art martial you may now be theoretically dead . To discuss it see my questions after my ukemi comments.

These conversation/debates in the Aiki world particularly interest me as a relative outsider. I have trained Aikido in the past. Currently I train regularly in Shorinji Kempo and I drop in at Aiki Eastside with Ledyard Sensei's group that study Daito Ryu.

SK's Juho (whether they admit it or not) is documented to come from Hakko Ryu, so hence my interest in playing with the DR folks so see the similarities/differences.

From the ukemi stand point I would say a glaring difference in training mindset is reflected in that quote above. In almost all the Aikido ukemi I've ever watched the uke rolls out and stands up with their back to their opponent or they take a sidefall and slap the mat. Now that may just be a dojo thing, but it seems pretty common to the vast majority I've visited. This is the cooperative model to "learn" waza, but from a Zanshin perspective it seems like being defeated.

In Shorinji Kempo, ukemi is taught so the mindset is not that I'm defeated so I'll fall and take ukemi, but that I've been caught, now get out!, which means jumping out of lock (try to land on your feet) and ura's or daisharin (cart wheeling). With rolls you immediately turn and face your opponent with Zanshin ready to kick or strike. i.e. train with a more combative mindset. Which all of that may very well be martial arty fluff, but I personally have experience in a street fight where I did a mae ukemi with a guy on my back punching me in the head and my roll bonked his skull like a bowling ball and I got up and was able to have at it with the other two. (Not bragging here, I was punk sh*thead when i was a kid.. )

Question: Does Aikido have a methodology or martial rationale behind ukemi? Or is it cooperative falling just to teach the waza?

In terms of SK waza, basic beginning always train kagite shuho, then the throw, joint lock or escape. On the surface these can all be muscled, but kagite shuho in many techniques can be done just like aiki age. More advanced you try and develop the ability to "lead' (with timing) your opponents attempt to grab you - hence starting the unbalancing before the grab happens - now this is my Sensei and might not be common in every SK dojo training.

Question, which might not have an answer or be answered in my first question: If Aikido and Hakko Ryu come from DR, why is Shorinji Kempo Juho ukemi, which comes out of Hakko ryu presented so differently? - as least as I've experienced it.

Now having attended Dan's seminars and trained with Sam Chin (I Liq Chuan) I'm trying to find the connections even further. To me, I begin to think on the surface that the joint locking, throwing jujutsu can be performed on purely muscled basis, or average as Dan puts it and combative it will just come down to who's bigger, faster, better. Trying to lead (with timing) opponents psychology IMO tries to be a bit better than average and IMO is typical aiki as commonly seen in many dojos. Advanced is the ability to not be thrown as Dan puts it. IMO the advanced guys of the past had the bujustu body and internal development.

When experienced by average people who were NOT taught the real stuff interpreted what they experienced the best they could and considered advanced to be the typical "leading" or timing/blending kuzushi stuff. But in reality they were just bouncing off of or around the likes of Ueshiba and other greats.

So if I was to add my two cents as a newb - my questioning is what is happening that makes me take ukemi? Do i feel a lock on my joint or a simple unbalancing of my center of gravity or have I experienced a complete sense/feeling of no control due to my opponents body positioning? As Sifu Chin said to me "My present is always your future because you aren't aware." It's disconcerting and makes me want to CREATE DISTANCE quickly! Whether by means of jumping back or .... ukemi as it is my only means of escape (i.e. leaping for a distance forward roll can quickly create space).

Regards,
--Ryan
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:43 PM   #23
DH
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

I'm not particularly troubled if I am on the same page as someone. I do what I do, they do what they do. Although, I have found it interesting that an incredible array of aikido teachers call what I do Aiki......do.
No matter. This thread is concerning an approach to higher levels of budo. If aikido-ka want to think that their art is unique in all the world and functions on principles never discovered by man....well....good luck with that.
For everyone else.
This model I outlined is not my own. There is much to be discussed on why "making connect" and the "four legged model is not a good path. I made an opening case, can we discuss my questions?
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:45 PM   #24
Chris Li
 
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
You have a good day too, Gary. I am not sure how you can tell what page I am on. I am training in a different art than is being talked about on this thread. Dan asked how ...so I tried ...but it was not to be so have fun.

I have trained with people that say that Nikkyo couldn't be done on them...what does that prove? Nothing.
I've done Nikkyo on Dan - that is, he allowed me to do Nikkyo on him. There's nothing wrong with that in a guided course of training.

On the other hand, I would think that it would be a no-brainer that being difficult to manipulate would be of value in a martial situation.

Unfortunately, the ukemi model followed in most Aikido dojo doesn't encourage the development of that skill - and it is a skill, that requires conditioning and training.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-10-2012, 04:50 PM   #25
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Re: Two centers making a connection or one- in a bujutsu body?

Hi Ryan
Sam's comment...my present is your future....matches my own. (gee what a surprise!) I say and I said here
You will always be late
You are being forced to react
It doesn't matter if they understand it on the internet, in person they keep failing BECAUSE they try to connect their centers.
More later, catching a flight.
Dan
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