Problem student!!

We have a student at our dojo who is turning out to be a problem. He has been coming to our dojo for over a year and is not really integrating well to our dojo. He is a low level student from another dojo ( or several as he states) and is quite egotistical about his technique. This guy states he has a couple thousand hours of training (5th kyu shihan anyone!!) yet has not tested to reflect this and it definitely does not show on his technique. When he works out with sempai, he will not take any tips on doing the technique(Myself included) and ignore any suggestions. During the initial movement he never breaks my balance ( I am not holding overtly hard either) then "makes up" some strange movement which is something Sensei did not teach. He then proceeds to take his frustration on not being able to do the waza by using a lot of strength to do it. When he puts a pin on you, you get the feeling like he is trying to "show" you something and the feeling transmitted does not "feel" good. This guy in turn falls before you throw him and taps before you can do a pin. I get a feeling of anger or some sort of passive aggressive issues going on.This guy cannot do basic technique very well and he really thinks he is very good. When ever I work out with this guy I don't know whether to laugh or be scared as he could be dangerous.
This "gentleman" has had several altercations with his sempai already. One even coming almost to blows. I warned my Sensei about several time about this guy unto which they said try to "Be harmonious" on the mat and try and talk to this guy off the mat. I am kind annoyed that Sensei is not seeing this guy is a problem. So far he tries to avoid practicing with all of his sempai and only practices with lower ranked people. What makes it worse is he is extremely socially awkward and does not really hang out with anyone at the dojo. How am I supposed to deal with guy?

Well, "you" aren't. Your sensei is. If your sensei doesn't have an effective solution, then the problem really lies with the sensei.

My personal approach would be to pair this person with someone bigger, stronger, more flexible, and more skilled. Let him try his crap, don't let it work, and then throw him hard in return. The usual response is to get frustrated, then angry, then eventually either walk out, or ask for help. When he asks for help, that is when you can start teaching...

1. Do not offer suggestions to him, you'll just get frustrated. It is his problem to understand, nobody else's. If you learn to accept that some people are not open to suggestions or feedback, the lesser you'll get frustrated.

2. If he does a different technique, as sempai, ask him to perform the technique that has been shown.

3. Mimic what he's doing when you are uke...ie fall before you are thrown and tap out before you are pinned.

4. Avoid him. neither of you are learning anyway if you practice together so it's just a waste of time partnering with each other. nage should learn from uke and uke should learn from nage. both play an important part in the learning process. There'll be hundreds if not thousands of aikidoka you'll partner in your aikido career so why worry about one. Make the most of your practice when you are at the mat.

Have you tried to "be harmonious" with the guy in class and "talk to him off the mat"?

The guy may not be a problem in the bigger picture even if he is a training challenge for the dojo's students. Doesn't sound like he's actually hurting anyone. If sensei is a good sensei and he knows about the problem, and he isn't doing anything about the problem, perhaps he does not see it as a problem.

Robin- That person would be me! I am bigger and much higher ranked than this guy. I have tried to "educate" him on the mat ( But be nice) to no avail. He does not comprehend it at all. I have been trying to be nice and not be a dick. And believe me sometimes I feel like being a dick.

Mario-1. Good point. He doesn't listen at all.

2. That would work. But it would be every technique ever time. I can see the steam coming from his ears right now!

3.I do like that suggestion! I kinda feel like I am being "used" when I practice with this guy. And he wont reciprocate when he is Uke.

4. He avoids me and the other sempai like the plague. There is a dwindling pool of people that want to practice with this guy in the dojo. He just practices with lower ranked people that "fall" at him whim and don't know how to do the proper technique.

Krystal- I have seriously tried to be "Harmonious" with this guy. I don't hold him hard and he still cant do the technique. He takes his frustration out on his partner which I don't think is cool. Admittedly I do like "Hard" practice and this guy is definitely an "Aikibunny" but I am not preventing him from doing the technique.
I actually did talk to the guy of the mat. I think it was Sensei's responsibility to handle this but he said for one of us to handle this( I disagree). The thing about this is Sensei is watching not practicing with this guy all the time. He doesn't feel anger in this guy or problems we see on the mat. I stated to him all of the frustrations about his sempai practicing with hm on the mat and how he needs to improve his attitude and technique. He just blamed us for picking on him and he is doing the waza exactly right. He told me we all need to change to him and not the other way around. He stated in the other dojos only Sensei could correct people and since Sensei was not correcting him all the time he was doing it right. The talk basically turned into an argument with me pointing things out and him denying all of them. Later Sensei had a "nicer" talk with this guy and I am not sure what he said to the student. He still comes to practice but avoid the other sempai and myself like the plague.
You are right he hasn't hurt anyone...yet. Actually he hurt someones elbow on his test doing one of his weird moves. Another time doing shihonage he pushed this guys arm through a window. His overuse on strength on waza is going to hurt someone. Sensei is not seeing all of this stuff all the time The thing I dislike is our Sensei says just "Be Harmonious" and allows this guy to keep coming. I think my Sensei feels that practicing Aikido will "Miraculously" change this guys attitude. He has been coming for over a year and the water has not changed to wine yet.

Anonymous User wrote: Robin- That person would be me! I am bigger and much higher ranked than this guy. I have tried to "educate" him on the mat ( But be nice) to no avail. He does not comprehend it at all. I have been trying to be nice and not be a dick. And believe me sometimes I feel like being a dick. Mario-1. Good point. He doesn't listen at all. 2. That would work. But it would be every technique ever time. I can see the steam coming from his ears right now! 3.I do like that suggestion! I kinda feel like I am being "used" when I practice with this guy. And he wont reciprocate when he is Uke. 4. He avoids me and the other sempai like the plague. There is a dwindling pool of people that want to practice with this guy in the dojo. He just practices with lower ranked people that "fall" at him whim and don't know how to do the proper technique. Krystal- I have seriously tried to be "Harmonious" with this guy. I don't hold him hard and he still cant do the technique. He takes his frustration out on his partner which I don't think is cool. Admittedly I do like "Hard" practice and this guy is definitely an "Aikibunny" but I am not preventing him from doing the technique. I actually did talk to the guy of the mat. I think it was Sensei's responsibility to handle this but he said for one of us to handle this( I disagree). The thing about this is Sensei is watching not practicing with this guy all the time. He doesn't feel anger in this guy or problems we see on the mat. I stated to him all of the frustrations about his sempai practicing with hm on the mat and how he needs to improve his attitude and technique. He just blamed us for picking on him and he is doing the waza exactly right. He told me we all need to change to him and not the other way around. He stated in the other dojos only Sensei could correct people and since Sensei was not correcting him all the time he was doing it right. The talk basically turned into an argument with me pointing things out and him denying all of them. Later Sensei had a "nicer" talk with this guy and I am not sure what he said to the student. He still comes to practice but avoid the other sempai and myself like the plague. You are right he hasn't hurt anyone...yet. Actually he hurt someones elbow on his test doing one of his weird moves. Another time doing shihonage he pushed this guys arm through a window. His overuse on strength on waza is going to hurt someone. Sensei is not seeing all of this stuff all the time The thing I dislike is our Sensei says just "Be Harmonious" and allows this guy to keep coming. I think my Sensei feels that practicing Aikido will "Miraculously" change this guys attitude. He has been coming for over a year and the water has not changed to wine yet.

My suggestion would be for you to have a senior students meeting with the teacher privately and everybody voice their concerns, possible solutions, etc. and let the sensei know clearly that it is the sensei's responsibility to effectively handle this situation that has grown worse over the course of a year.

Marc Abrams

I agree with, Marc...in the meantime perhaps you could seek him out and practice diligently with him. If there comes a time for you to correct him perhaps you could call your teacher over and ask a question from your point of view. Then it would not be just you and him.

I like to pay attention to how I feel about each partner on each day because I can learn a lot about myself that way. If I got to partner with a perfect uke or nage all the time so many opportunities to meet myself would be lost.

Marc Abrams wrote: My suggestion would be for you to have a senior students meeting with the teacher privately and everybody voice their concerns, possible solutions, etc. and let the sensei know clearly that it is the sensei's responsibility to effectively handle this situation that has grown worse over the course of a year. Marc Abrams

Thank you Sensei for your suggestion. All the sempai and I have told our teacher about the situation and examples. I clearly stated that he is going to hurt some one or he will get hurt. Yet He still says we will "Be harmonious" and be "best friends" on the mat. I came to my Sensei and asked him to deal with the situation but was told "We should talk to him". I think that sensei wanted to avoid the "talk" that I had to have with him. I am not sure why he hasn't done anything except a small slap on the wrist to this guy. I think that why I exploded at the "talk". I think our sensei wants everyone to practice no matter what. We have a small dojo with not a lot of members and they don't want to kick any one out. I honestly don't have any problems with this guy except his etiquette on the mat. I am surprised that he still comes to the dojo after the "talk".

Mary Eastland wrote: I agree with, Marc...in the meantime perhaps you could seek him out and practice diligently with him. If there comes a time for you to correct him perhaps you could call your teacher over and ask a question from your point of view. Then it would not be just you and him. I like to pay attention to how I feel about each partner on each day because I can learn a lot about myself that way. If I got to partner with a perfect uke or nage all the time so many opportunities to meet myself would be lost.

The problem with practicing with this guy is its honestly almost every technique he needs correction on. He doesn't understand the basic ways to move in Aikido. He flows nice but no idea on how to move the body correctly. There is no balance break on any technique he does on me. I would have to have Sensei over the whole time to watch this guy. I have learned a lot from practicing with this guy ...on how not to move correctly or how not to break balance. Practicing with this guy seems one sided. He wont let me throw him (he falls before the throw is done) or finish locks (taps before ANY pressure is applied) and yet will CRANK the crap out of my arm with a lot of strength( I can take a lot of pain but it does seem over excessive).

Anonymous User wrote: Thank you Sensei for your suggestion. All the sempai and I have told our teacher about the situation and examples.

Did you go to him in a group? If not, this is what you should do. Individual complaints can be ignored, but when a group of people come to you together, it has a different impact (that's why interventions are successful). If you have consensus among the sempai, you shouldn't have any problems getting them to do this.

Perhaps if all his sempai get together and block him from practicing with anyone but them, the lessons might sink in. Every time it comes time to change partners, another sempai steps up and faces him, it probably wouldn't be too long before his attitude changed or he just stopped coming to class. It would be frustrating in small doses for the seniors and extended frustration or change for him.

many years ago when I was first teaching, I had a "problem" student. I sat down and talked with my teacher and gave him all of the specifics. Instead of providing me with a specific answer, he told me that I was responsible for the safety and well-being of the class. This is also the responsibility of your teacher. If your teacher has not yet stepped to the forefront to handle this situation, that all of the seniors need to set down AGAIN with the teacher and ask that the teacher DIRECTLY deal with this situation, so as to prevent students from having to act in ways that may not be consistent and may not always be appropriate. The goal is the overall student body safety and well-being. This should be the over-arching basis for direct action by the teacher. If I were a senior student, I would make that clear to my teacher, particularly when the safety and well-being of the students can not be assured when this person is attending class.

Good Luck!

marc abrams

Mary Malmros wrote: Did you go to him in a group? If not, this is what you should do. Individual complaints can be ignored, but when a group of people come to you together, it has a different impact (that's why interventions are successful). If you have consensus among the sempai, you shouldn't have any problems getting them to do this.

Good point. We will keep an eye on this guy and the next time something happens the group approach sound like a good idea as stated by Abrams Sensei and yourself.

Tom Quinn wrote: Perhaps if all his sempai get together and block him from practicing with anyone but them, the lessons might sink in. Every time it comes time to change partners, another sempai steps up and faces him, it probably wouldn't be too long before his attitude changed or he just stopped coming to class. It would be frustrating in small doses for the seniors and extended frustration or change for him.

That's another great idea. Yeah he wouldn't like that idea..lol.

Marc Abrams wrote: many years ago when I was first teaching, I had a "problem" student. I sat down and talked with my teacher and gave him all of the specifics. Instead of providing me with a specific answer, he told me that I was responsible for the safety and well-being of the class. This is also the responsibility of your teacher. If your teacher has not yet stepped to the forefront to handle this situation, that all of the seniors need to set down AGAIN with the teacher and ask that the teacher DIRECTLY deal with this situation, so as to prevent students from having to act in ways that may not be consistent and may not always be appropriate. The goal is the overall student body safety and well-being. This should be the over-arching basis for direct action by the teacher. If I were a senior student, I would make that clear to my teacher, particularly when the safety and well-being of the students can not be assured when this person is attending class. Good Luck! marc abrams

Good idea Sensei! I will be keeping an eye on this student. I will get the senior students together should something happen again.

Mary Eastland wrote: I agree with, Marc...in the meantime perhaps you could seek him out and practice diligently with him. If there comes a time for you to correct him perhaps you could call your teacher over and ask a question from your point of view. Then it would not be just you and him. I like to pay attention to how I feel about each partner on each day because I can learn a lot about myself that way. If I got to partner with a perfect uke or nage all the time so many opportunities to meet myself would be lost.

I agree. I also agree w/ MA's suggestion re: calling a sempai mtg with the sensei...but on a day to day basis, I would be summoning my instructor each and every time I had a problem with this student, framing the question as something *I* don't understand....

The big question I have reading this is, how does the guy act with more junior students? Is he also being passive aggressive or cranking hard on them? Or giving them 'advice' on techniques? Or is it just seniors that bring out the worst in him?

Because if he's causing problems for the juniors or pushing them around I'd be way more concerned about that -- for the senior students it's frustrating but just doesn't have the same degree of impact or possible harm. They're far more able to take care of themselves. If anything if someone's 'difficult' I would think the seniors should try to step up so the juniors don't have to be the ones dealing with him. (Though yeah, if that has to happen for a long time that's kind of a problem).

As far as practicing with him personally, without knowing the guy so take that for what it's worth, my instinct is that I'd just try not to worry about whether he's learning anything. Let that be his problem. I wouldn't correct him at all, even if he did a totally different technique, I'd just take ukemi as well as I could when it was my turn to take ukemi, ask him to go easier on the pins if he's cranking them on, and just do my best as nage and accept that it's not going to be the best practice. If possible I'd try to find something I could work on for myself when practicing with him, maybe the beginning or middle of the technique if he tends to anticipate the end, or even just my own posture or footwork. If he's determined not to learn anything, that's his problem. I really don't see the point or benefit of 'helping' someone unless they actually want your help.

I'd also go slowly when working with him and try in particular to do pins and throws slowly and relatively gently. Partly because he sounds like he maybe needs and wants people to go easy on him (even if he's not good at saying so directly), and partly to set a good example for him (the last thing you want is for him to feel hurt or afraid and for him to try to do it harder on you to 'show you what it feels like').

The other reason I'd recommend going easy on him on pins or throws and not responding in kind to any physically aggressive practice is because you don't want him to get the idea that it's OK for a sempai to practice like that with a kohai in this dojo (e.g. if his partner is tapping early he should slow down). I've seen that happen -- intermediate student is being kind of a dick, senior student decides to 'teach him a lesson', intermediate student takes out his stress and hurt ego on the next junior student he gets alone with.

Hi OP,

Sounds like things aren't going so well with the new guy. Did you ever ask him what style of Aikido he did before coming to your dojo? We have someone from Aikikai come to our dojo a year ago, with 12 years under his belt. It took him months to switch over to our way of moving. Younger kyu rank students probably would have a harder time with this- imagine learning 2 years of French and suddenly being switched over to Korean. Also, if he dosen't know how to do a techinique, don't belittle him for it. Beginners are beginners. And yes, beginners (often young, male ones) often crank techinique and then either flop down like a dead fish or never fall at all.

My main concern is why are you so happy about the idea of getting all the sempai to avoid him? Do you think your kohai are magically going to do better with him? As sempai, you should be preventing him from working out with your kohai and working on him. When we get a new belt in our dojo, Sensei says you take on the rank AND responsibility of that rank.

I get it- egotisical people suck. My Sensei has a dojo and a college dojo and I'm in both. And I've watched freshman do the same thing to me and to people who have been practicing longer than I have been alive.

At a year he should be doing better, but just remember- you and everyone in the dojo let this problem go on for that long. And he has been doing this despite being told not to. Don't just blame the kid, blame the parent as well.

Basia Halliop wrote: The big question I have reading this is, how does the guy act with more junior students? Is he also being passive aggressive or cranking hard on them? Or giving them 'advice' on techniques? Or is it just seniors that bring out the worst in him? Because if he's causing problems for the juniors or pushing them around I'd be way more concerned about that -- for the senior students it's frustrating but just doesn't have the same degree of impact or possible harm. They're far more able to take care of themselves. If anything if someone's 'difficult' I would think the seniors should try to step up so the juniors don't have to be the ones dealing with him. (Though yeah, if that has to happen for a long time that's kind of a problem). As far as practicing with him personally, without knowing the guy so take that for what it's worth, my instinct is that I'd just try not to worry about whether he's learning anything. Let that be his problem. I wouldn't correct him at all, even if he did a totally different technique, I'd just take ukemi as well as I could when it was my turn to take ukemi, ask him to go easier on the pins if he's cranking them on, and just do my best as nage and accept that it's not going to be the best practice. If possible I'd try to find something I could work on for myself when practicing with him, maybe the beginning or middle of the technique if he tends to anticipate the end, or even just my own posture or footwork. If he's determined not to learn anything, that's his problem. I really don't see the point or benefit of 'helping' someone unless they actually want your help. I'd also go slowly when working with him and try in particular to do pins and throws slowly and relatively gently. Partly because he sounds like he maybe needs and wants people to go easy on him (even if he's not good at saying so directly), and partly to set a good example for him (the last thing you want is for him to feel hurt or afraid and for him to try to do it harder on you to 'show you what it feels like').

Good advice. He doesn't rough house the mudansha at all. I think he likes practicing with them so he can do what he wants and they don't know any better. I think he is not threatened by them also. You are right about not helping someone that does not want help. My issues are that when my sempai and I practice with this guy even we say nothing and practice normally the behavior continues. This guy wants you to fall without kuzushi and him "waving" his hand in your face. This guy get so frustrated he cant do the technique he takes it out on us. Also when we have a seminar, I am afraid this guy will take his frustration on a visitor who doesn't know this guys "issues". This guy is representing our dojo with our patch on his gi.

This guy also when you work with him tends to keep attacking you, running constantly. So going slow is sometimes a problem. The problem with the pins is he never lets anyone get a pin on him, so we never know how much he can take. And I know how to apply pressure subtly. I honestly think it is a control issue this guy has with a partner.

Anonymous User wrote: Good advice. He doesn't rough house the mudansha at all. I think he likes practicing with them so he can do what he wants and they don't know any better. I think he is not threatened by them also.

But are they learning to do things the way that your sensei wants them done? Are they learning the curriculum?

Zoe Toth wrote: Hi OP, Sounds like things aren't going so well with the new guy. Did you ever ask him what style of Aikido he did before coming to your dojo? We have someone from Aikikai come to our dojo a year ago, with 12 years under his belt. It took him months to switch over to our way of moving. Younger kyu rank students probably would have a harder time with this- imagine learning 2 years of French and suddenly being switched over to Korean. Also, if he dosen't know how to do a techinique, don't belittle him for it. Beginners are beginners. And yes, beginners (often young, male ones) often crank techinique and then either flop down like a dead fish or never fall at all. My main concern is why are you so happy about the idea of getting all the sempai to avoid him? Do you think your kohai are magically going to do better with him? As sempai, you should be preventing him from working out with your kohai and working on him. When we get a new belt in our dojo, Sensei says you take on the rank AND responsibility of that rank. I get it- egotisical people suck. My Sensei has a dojo and a college dojo and I'm in both. And I've watched freshman do the same thing to me and to people who have been practicing longer than I have been alive. At a year he should be doing better, but just remember- you and everyone in the dojo let this problem go on for that long. And he has been doing this despite being told not to. Don't just blame the kid, blame the parent as well.

Yeah. The funny thing is he has stated he trained at two dojo's both know for "hard"style Aikido. One Aikikai and another Yoshinkan. I watched the sensei from the Aikikai dojo on you tube and this guy does not move at all like the sensei. And the Yoshinkan school is well known for instilling basics into the ground also. I was surprised this guy moved like an AIkibunny. Taking this into account along with him stating several thousand hours of practice ( Shouldn't he be a Sandan or Yondan?!?!?) despite having being a very low kyu and not much to how for basic movement. We aren't trying to belittle him when we practice just trying to get the correct movement so he can do the technique, which he does not like.

I am not happy about the sempai not practicing with him but it does keep the peace in the dojo. He honestly seems not wanting any help or practice with sempai. He just wants to do what he "interprets" as correct and no one should tell him other wise. At least when he practices with mudansha, I think he is not intimidated by them and can just do what he wants. How can we help someone that does not want help? This guy supposedly also refuses to test in previous dojos. He skipped the last test at our dojo until sensei forced him to test. I honestly think there is issues of not taking pressure well and also maybe being a 5th kyu shihan attitude.

You are right about it being partially our fault. I told my Sensei early on when I watched the guy and practiced with him that there was an issue there. Nothing came of it. This guy obviously does not want to learn our style and is too good to relearn the basics. Slowly I started hearing things through the grapevine about his practice issues. No one did anything until I felt something had to be done. Since our "Talk" I haven't see him much although he still comes to class and avoids anyone he has issues with like the plague.

Tom Quinn wrote: But are they learning to do things the way that your sensei wants them done? Are they learning the curriculum?

We are fortunate to have good students at our dojo. I think they understand that what this guy is doing is weird and not what sensei is showing them. I think our Sensei is good at teaching the basics and practicing with our sempai has grounded the mudansha in basic movements. But there is always one guy.....

Well, I don't know, but if this guy really has practiced for a good while somewhere else, maybe he's actually doing things he was previously taught were desirable and practicing in a way that took him a long time to learn to do? Or simply that completely different things were seen as more fundamental in his dojo and more important to learn first, so the things he's spent his time focusing on are not what you guys consider 'the most important basics' (and likewise he may look at you guys and wonder why so many people seem lacking in what he was taught were 'basics'). It's possible that the 'good' people in your dojo would even have been corrected in his last dojo, who knows. So maybe frustrating and confusing to come somewhere else and find that people practice so differently. Of course if he's going to train at your dojo he'll need to adapt, but it makes some of the confusion and frustration understandable, especially if he perceives you guys as insulting things he's actually proud of and feels he's worked hard to achieve.

Can you try to emphasize less that he's doing it 'wrong' and more that in your style it's done differently? Sympathize with him about how hard it can be to pick up a new style? Compliment him on any areas where he's strong?

It just seems that right now everything is becoming a battle which may make any kind of compromise on his side feel like 'giving in' or losing.

Though his comment about it not being a problem if Sensei doesn't say it is is actually pretty reasonable. DOES Sensei see it as a problem and want him to learn to practice differently? If so, he may not believe that unless he actually hears if from Sensei. If you guys are all saying something's a problem but Sensei seems (at least as far as this guy can tell) to be content, it's not surprising he might think you guys are overstepping your bounds telling him what to do.

Or OTOH maybe he had all the same kinds of issues in previous dojos, in which case really not sure what you can do other than try not to let him get to you and try not to let him teach bad habits to beginners.