Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-18-2011, 02:52 AM   #76
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,916
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

I always like a good chicken katetori

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2011, 05:47 PM   #77
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,523
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Well, that was lovely. Today a package arrived on my doorstep. An unmarked shipping envelope that contained two books -- one of which is the book referenced above "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist". The other an autographed copy of a book I'm pretty sure some have bothered to read. All sent to me anonymously. So thank you to whomever was kind enough to send me such nice, new copies of these books! Truly appreciated and wholly unexpected. Thank you!

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 05:03 PM   #78
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

[/quote] Bujutsu has to do with the clarity and the success of the technique. Through the study of technique we
discover and experience the unity of mind-heart, body, and ki, which develops intuitive action coming from
a state of no-mind or no thought. Natural power is developed in the hips (koshi) together with ki and breath
(kokyu) „Especially to learn to be able to sense the intent and movement of the partner before they move,"
(O-Sensei) leading to the ability to lead or guide the attacker.[quote]

By Peter Shapiro sensei.

Nice to hear someone else talking my language.

Think I'll go research and find some more.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 07:22 PM   #79
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,523
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Overwhelmingly the posts are full of dicto simpliciter ("every school boy knows..."), biased samples, and confirmation bias fallacies. Not to mention rather thinly guised argumentum ad hominem (condescending lecturing about how simple it really is -- obviously the readers aren't nearly as enlightened and brilliant as you). And other logical and general argument fallacies, but I'm sure I'm boring the readers at this point.

The last one posted is confirmation bias combined with equivocation fallacy, by the way. Keep digging. You can always find bits and pieces to substantiate anything you'd like.

Truthiness. Great word.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 06:35 AM   #80
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Overwhelmingly the posts are full of dicto simpliciter ("every school boy knows..."), biased samples, and confirmation bias fallacies. Not to mention rather thinly guised argumentum ad hominem (condescending lecturing about how simple it really is -- obviously the readers aren't nearly as enlightened and brilliant as you). And other logical and general argument fallacies, but I'm sure I'm boring the readers at this point.

The last one posted is confirmation bias combined with equivocation fallacy, by the way. Keep digging. You can always find bits and pieces to substantiate anything you'd like.

Truthiness. Great word.
Nice. Sounds like you need more centre. If you had koshi though you could let go of your negative feelings.

Have fun.

G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 08:09 AM   #81
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Keith:

Isn't it fun trying to debate a person who is incapable of debating ! The person is concerned with your koshi and center! Maybe if that person has a real set of cajones, he could visit you and show you how it's done........

Cordially,

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 08:42 AM   #82
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,741
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

The truthiness, it burns, preciousss.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 08:43 AM   #83
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,523
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Keith:

Isn't it fun trying to debate a person who is incapable of debating ! The person is concerned with your koshi and center! Maybe if that person has a real set of cajones, he could visit you and show you how it's done........

Cordially,

Marc Abrams
Yup...

And he posts yet another example of argumentum ad hominem.

Plonk time. I've spent way too much time on this. My concern is that there are those who might find his arguments compelling all while he would be laughed out of an lower division logic or philosophy class. Philosophy in general and logic in particular are a heck of a lot more than sounding deep. Much like Aikido, without some substance the outer forms are just that -- an insubstantial shell.

Too much to do, not enough mental energy.

BTW, Graham, the previous sentence is an opening for a final zinger post that I won't even see -- you're welcome!

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 03:50 PM   #84
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Yup...

And he posts yet another example of argumentum ad hominem.

Plonk time. I've spent way too much time on this. My concern is that there are those who might find his arguments compelling all while he would be laughed out of an lower division logic or philosophy class. Philosophy in general and logic in particular are a heck of a lot more than sounding deep. Much like Aikido, without some substance the outer forms are just that -- an insubstantial shell.

Too much to do, not enough mental energy.

BTW, Graham, the previous sentence is an opening for a final zinger post that I won't even see -- you're welcome!
Bless you. I merely gave a source relevant to my thread. I can give the philosophy of it and practically demonstrate it thank you.

Obviously some here are unaware of this aspect or even perspective.

Maybe you're right, it's too deep.

Must be my fault for understanding it. Ha, ha.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 09:41 AM   #85
roadtoad
Dojo: none
Location: vacaville ca
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 40
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

I think one of the things you're talking about, is what some martial artists call the 'second man', or, that there is a second person shadowing you, close to what some native indians call your 'second', but that's another story.
Man Ming is actually located on the spine, if you had a spiritual flashlight and shined it through your belly button until the light hit your spine, that would be man ming. It is actually one of the four dan tings. The aikido one point is actually the point of original chi, which is...if you make your hand flat, including your thumb, and then hold it below your belly button, now you have to make three fingers width inside your body, that is the actual one point that all aikidoka should be using.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 12:02 PM   #86
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
I think one of the things you're talking about, is what some martial artists call the 'second man', or, that there is a second person shadowing you, close to what some native indians call your 'second', but that's another story.
Man Ming is actually located on the spine, if you had a spiritual flashlight and shined it through your belly button until the light hit your spine, that would be man ming. It is actually one of the four dan tings. The aikido one point is actually the point of original chi, which is...if you make your hand flat, including your thumb, and then hold it below your belly button, now you have to make three fingers width inside your body, that is the actual one point that all aikidoka should be using.
That's closer, Man-ming.

Not being one for super amounts of data and references (others opinions) I would say that man-ming is closer to what I talk about here. Probably though, as pointed out earlier, a bit below that called yao in chinese. (physically speaking)

I posted this on the spiritual thread and that's usually why the misunderstandings and arguments occur because not many really practice this side of the art. Though they do love to argue, ha, ha.

In tai chi, qi gong, and those kind of things these concepts are quite well known in various forms. In shinto itself it is also well known and taoism. In fact the yao is said to be the power point that opens
up the man-ming and can be described as a gateway in taoist terminology, a gateway to the transcendance of the physical body.

In these things it's also related to the void, something else I point out regularly.

Now, here in this thread I go a step further and point out that the Japanese had these concepts. The concept of one point I'm sure was used by the most famous original Karate Masters and Koshi is so well known it's embedded in the culture. I guarantee Early Sumo knew about it and also that Ueshiba and his nephew used it but just referred to it as lowering the hips or sinking the hips but the words they would use would obviously be koshi. I also bet they emphasized it but those into only physical would not see the significance.

I read recently how the top Karate person, master, at the time explained how he was 'defeated' by Inoue (Ueshiba's nephew) with such a soft karate strike that it led to him relearning all that he already knew. He was amazed how he dropped his hips and this gave this unexplainable softness in his strike. Thus he went on to learn from Ueshiba and Inoue and put that into his Karate.

The nearest I see most Aikido folk who don't know get to it recently is some I/P they are learning and thus the ground force would be in the general ball park.

Toheis weight underside is much to do with this and so those really good at weight underside would be in the same ball park also for it is directly related to koshi.

When I see movies or joke with students about doing the horse stance, get them doing it, like they are sitting on an imaginary stall and straining their thigh muscles trying to hold the position, then I say how this is actually an exercise of 'sitting in koshi' and koshi is like sitting on a super soft cloud or sofa. Only then will the thighs relax and the true feeling be experienced.

Sitting in seiza one should be sitting in koshi too.

Like your second person analogy and indian story. No doubt they have their ways of putting it, probably the shamen of various African Arts have their versions too etc. I would expect all arts from various cultures and peoples tracing back you will find these various 'centers' of .spirit/mind/body put in their own ways.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 01:27 PM   #87
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Hi Ike, I never heard of Man Ming nor Dan Ting. However, I have heard about mingmen and dantian -

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 02:18 PM   #88
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi Ike, I never heard of Man Ming nor Dan Ting. However, I have heard about mingmen and dantian -

Greg
Thought you would like the Dan Ting, ha, ha.

Peace, G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 04:26 PM   #89
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thought you would like the Dan Ting, ha, ha.

Peace, G.
Yeah, it is always interesting watching Dan do his 'Ting'

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 07:08 PM   #90
roadtoad
Dojo: none
Location: vacaville ca
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 40
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Greg, you're right, I misspelled it. Mingmen is Du4, and considered the point of the yang of the kidney,which is also used for ki. Yaoyangguan is Du3, but not used for much in martial arts.
In daoism, menming is used as a dantian, but placed about an inch inside the body, not the same place as acupuncture, for the most power. Many chinese styles, including many taiji styles, use this, instead of the point of original chi, for their power point.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 08:19 PM   #91
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
Greg, you're right, I misspelled it. Mingmen is Du4, and considered the point of the yang of the kidney,which is also used for ki. Yaoyangguan is Du3, but not used for much in martial arts.
In daoism, menming is used as a dantian, but placed about an inch inside the body, not the same place as acupuncture, for the most power. Many chinese styles, including many taiji styles, use this, instead of the point of original chi, for their power point.
I am with you on your points and what you are saying - In Aikido, center, or Tohei's one point, is below the naval and in as you described - but dantian is different, and there are more that one dantian point in the Chinese stuff as you have said.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 02:17 AM   #92
ksy
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 50
Malaysia
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

When I see movies or joke with students about doing the horse stance, get them doing it, like they are sitting on an imaginary stall and straining their thigh muscles trying to hold the position, then I say how this is actually an exercise of 'sitting in koshi' and koshi is like sitting on a super soft cloud or sofa. Only then will the thighs relax and the true feeling be experienced.
graham, how do i do the horse stance 'koshi' style. i cannot get the soft sofa feeling, my thighs can't take the position too long. can you go into more detail?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 08:08 AM   #93
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote: View Post
graham, how do i do the horse stance 'koshi' style. i cannot get the soft sofa feeling, my thighs can't take the position too long. can you go into more detail?
Hi. An unexpected question.

The answer depends on what your purpose is really for what you are actually asking is how to develop Koshi.

As I see it I find many, in fact most of those involved with 'gravity' or 'grounding' type 'Ki' exercises using their center or lowering or dropping center to do so. This is not Koshi. Koshi is a different center.

The standard way for me would be of course a process and thus not something people start off with. In my opinion those who practice weight underside are perhaps unknowingly developing the beginnings of Koshi.

So as you see it's a matter of learning center, one point, weight underside and then developing Koshi.

So secondly it depends on how aware you are of those things mentioned above and how good are you at employing them at what you do. If they are very real to you then I could give a different answer based on your understanding otherwise it may only lead to confusion.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion Ellis Amdur Supplies 80 12-08-2011 03:07 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 17 Peter Goldsbury Columns 41 06-03-2010 09:46 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 07-31-2009 11:19 PM
Aikido: The learning of natural movement Mike Hamer General 517 12-12-2006 03:15 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:33 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate