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Old 10-02-2012, 11:41 AM   #101
MM
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Dan:

I would strongly suggest that people spend A LOT of time learning how to create the bujutsu body. I would also suggest that as this is occurring, re-examine waza and experiment with allowing waza to be expressed through that body. I am experimenting with this approach and would encourage others to do so as well.

Cordially,

Marc Abrams
Hi Marc,

Reminds me of this quote from Tada: Morihei Ueshiba Sensei said, "When I move technique is produced".

Thanks to Chris Li for the translated article here:
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/...do-body-part-8
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:50 PM   #102
DH
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,
Reminds me of this quote from Tada: Morihei Ueshiba Sensei said, "When I move, technique is produced."
There has been a rumour for years as to the explanation regarding Daito ryu's different waza and the now well known model of not repeating techniques. That Takeda was free wheeling it (just as Ueshiba was-and maybe as Ueshiba was taught) and people were copying and more or less recording movements that later...became... waza. Hence the addition of scrolls as time went on.
Dan
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:04 PM   #103
Chris Li
 
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,

Reminds me of this quote from Tada: Morihei Ueshiba Sensei said, "When I move technique is produced".

Thanks to Chris Li for the translated article here:
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/...do-body-part-8
The literal translation is that technique "comes into being" or "is born" - maybe I should have used that, the imagery is a little richer.

Anyway, it seems clear to me that he's not talking about "doing" or "applying" a technique, but is talking about something that is created spontaneously from his condition or state of being.

Tada seems to imply that this is automatic movement conditioned by repeated kata training - but I tend to think that approach goes too far down the wrong path, if that's what he's thinking.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-02-2012, 01:27 PM   #104
Marc Abrams
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The literal translation is that technique "comes into being" or "is born" - maybe I should have used that, the imagery is a little richer.

Anyway, it seems clear to me that he's not talking about "doing" or "applying" a technique, but is talking about something that is created spontaneously from his condition or state of being.

Tada seems to imply that this is automatic movement conditioned by repeated kata training - but I tend to think that approach goes too far down the wrong path, if that's what he's thinking.

Best,

Chris
Chris:

That reminds me of a story I was told that when the US film crew was filming O'Sensei and Tohei Sensei. O'Sensei did a kokyu-nage and they asked him to do it again for the film. He did another kokyu-nage and they asked him why did not repeat what he was asked to do again. O'Sensei looked at them with a puzzled look and told them that he did.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:45 PM   #105
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The literal translation is that technique "comes into being" or "is born" - maybe I should have used that, the imagery is a little richer.

Anyway, it seems clear to me that he's not talking about "doing" or "applying" a technique, but is talking about something that is created spontaneously from his condition or state of being.

Tada seems to imply that this is automatic movement conditioned by repeated kata training - but I tend to think that approach goes too far down the wrong path, if that's what he's thinking.

Best,

Chris
That is the way I understand it - a true technique is a result of the moment and cannot be duplicated exactly because a moment is unique and is gone in...well, a moment

Greg
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:36 PM   #106
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Eddy
No, not a typo.
Taken in steps - martial arts are typically taught as:
1. Lower level: taught as techniques
2. Mid level: discussed as principles of movement " behind" those techniques.
3. High level: Internal movement as a precursor to all movement

In reverse (and correct) order to learn high level budo-you start over and learn:
1. Motion, in stillness: control and management of forces within yourself to create a balance of ki within yourself ai-ki
then
2. Stillness in motion: how you carry that awareness and management into controlling forces that alight on you- from the outside and manage them in accord with your own control of forces within you, thus neutralizing and managing them again.
3. This, builds with a totally different means to manage your body with a new set of
"principles of movement" to further neutralize force enacted upon you yet again..aiki. But now in a different way that normal movement can only hope to mimic. this is the essense of real aiki that captured the attention of seasoned warriors. The aiki that controlled and impressed so many.

It is, simply put...a different way to move.

The "principles of movement" behind the waza we usually see are all based on external movement that every Tom, Dick and Harry does. This is beneficial for superior teachers, as it teaches virtually all of the participants in budo to move in a fashion that is easier to take apart. One small example is teaching people to move "one side weighted." This is the way humans move, budo can strengthen and deepen that movement in you in its teaching...thus you are primed...to be thrown or to have to fight back with muscle. Which is very good for the teachers isn't it? Teaching you to move from center and to have aiki in you...is to teach you to be extremely difficult to deal with-for that same teacher teaching you. Interestingly a significant source for this high level work in the Japanese arts said publicly "Only teach one or two people per generation."

Why principles don't work all the time and people cannot duplicate perceived movement:
You can see martial artists all over trying to duplicate the movement of more connected teachers they see-yet they cannot achieve the same results. The reason is that almost nobody in budo moves from or is connected to their center well. It only takes a few seconds to demonstrate that to them in person. Beyond all their hopes and statements to the contrary-they really don't know how to do something as simple as -move from their center. When you lack that connection, higher level principles (based on connected movement) fail to function. The foundational requirement is missing.

Beyond all of this, there is a totally new playground of moving and connecting with people; with different modes of moving and absorbing and redirecting forces previously not attainable by people who lacked centered movement. And this has it's own levels of movement. We can add significantly to that by an awakened dantian...moving.

These things continue to be debated on the internet...and then clearly demonstrated in person and all debate....ends.
In order to truly understand, you have to walk away from waza and many of the principles of movement we have all been taught- based on lower level external movement, and begin again...creating a bujutsu body.
Dan
Dan
I shared this entry with John Clodig and he commented that it was succinct and to the point.....a lot said in a few words.......that he better understands where you are coming from......and that he agrees.....
Gary
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Old 10-03-2012, 05:50 AM   #107
ewolput
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Hi Dan,
thank you for taken the time to answer my question. I have nothing to add or ask a new question for the moment.
This time the discussion is not going into a debate "welles nietes". This is a dutch/flemish expression for "my point of view is better then yours".

Eddy
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