Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-01-2012, 12:58 AM   #1
Andrew Macdonald
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Offline
Process or Result

this is a big question in the education feild where i live as well, but that is another story

So anyway O-sensei was a great martial artist (for now we'll just let that stand if you disagree please start another thread)

He devoted himself to the study of many martial arts, and trained like extremely hard. to get to his level of skill. then he created Aikido that we study, however, i feel that sometimes we focus too much on how he was like at the end of his life or the result of all his training without taking into account the process that got him there.

What can we achieve without that process
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 06:40 AM   #2
aiki-jujutsuka
 
aiki-jujutsuka's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 192
Offline
Re: Process or Result

well as a practitioner of Aiki-Jujutsu I feel that I am walking a similar path to O'Sensei. I know O'Sensei practised and taught Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu but nevertheless Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu traces its lineage back to Daito-Ryu the same as Aikido. The very fact that I am learning an art that still bears much similarity to Daito-Ryu AJJ leads me to hope that if ever I chose to take up Aikido seriously later in life then I will have undertaken a similar journey to O-Sensei himself; a journey that will hopefully have been a process of personal growth, martial effectiveness and in a more modest way transcendence, martially speaking, like O'Sensei.

As I am still a kyu grade, I feel my journey in AJJ is not yet complete; I do hope to one day become an experienced Yudansha (ideally Sandan or Yondan) before I feel I would have the same level of training and experience O'Sensei had before developing Aikido. Perhaps my path will be different, perhaps my path is to cross-train only in Aikido (I do like the idea of teaching in my own Dentokan dojo). But I am open to the possibility that my own journey will mirror that of O-Sensei more fully.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 09:12 AM   #3
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,741
United_States
Offline
Re: Process or Result

How much can you know about another person's process? And even if you do, what bearing does it have on your own?

Some people are reflective, insightful and articulate. We see that often in the columns on aikiweb. When someone reflects on their own process/experience, derives insight from it, and has both the ability and motivation to communicate that process, then we can know something about it. Otherwise, I think we're groping in the dark. We can know the names and dates and places, but the process remains a mystery.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 10:44 AM   #4
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Aikido
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 928
United_States
Offline
Re: Process or Result

As usual, I think it depends (stock answer from my consultant days). Some dojo offer you a community, some offer you a path. The best, I find, offer both and are very transparent about it (and what skills will realistically be imparted). Your ability to absorb what they are teaching and willingness to work at it tends to be huge factors as well.

Of course, this gets challenging when dysfunction creeps into any of those areas - as a natural tendency of dysfunction can be to seek to cast blame elsewhere rather than seek to improve what's in the mirror (this can be process, art, dojo, sensei, student, etc. - all levels and to any combination of degrees). In my profession, I'm about data driven results, sans ambiguity and minimal narrative. It's more difficult to apply this to an artistic pursuit, but assuming you are devoting the necessary time, thought and commitment to an activity - hopefully it becomes more apparent that to reach any goal, you need measurable targets along the way.

Hence, yes, it's a process that should be measurable by results.

Last edited by Budd : 10-01-2012 at 10:47 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 01:26 PM   #5
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,159
Offline
Re: Process or Result

Can we choose both?

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 08:17 PM   #6
Adam Huss
 
Adam Huss's Avatar
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 612
United_States
Offline
Re: Process or Result

Andrew,

If I correctly understand what you said, I totally agree. I feel like too many people want to try and make their aikido 'look like' M. Ueshiba's without grueling through the necessary path to develop what was underneath. To me technique is a tool used to train and develop spirit. So, for my training, having an easy, soft, and weak path of budo...where there is no expansion and elimination of limitations and weakness present...would make my training pointless and without value or quality.

If I'm off base, please disregard.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 09:42 AM   #7
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Process or Result

How can anybody in the modern world really re-create O-Sensei's process? And who would want to?

Go train in every martial art you can find. Get sent off to a foreign war. Fall in with a charismatic religious leader. Go adventuring again. Just about get yourself executed. Go pioneering in the wild north. Find another martial arts guru and go study with him, abandoning your family without even telling them where you are.

O-Sensei's life was his own and few of us could re-create it if we wanted to, and if we could it wouldn't work anyway because living O-Sensei's life because you want to be O-Sensei is very different from living his life because you are O-Sensei.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 10:31 AM   #8
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Process or Result

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
this is a big question in the education feild where i live as well, but that is another story

So anyway O-sensei was a great martial artist (for now we'll just let that stand if you disagree please start another thread)

He devoted himself to the study of many martial arts, and trained like extremely hard. to get to his level of skill. then he created Aikido that we study, however, i feel that sometimes we focus too much on how he was like at the end of his life or the result of all his training without taking into account the process that got him there.

What can we achieve without that process
The research that has been done does not support your theories. Morihei Ueshiba devoted himself to only one martial art: Daito ryu. Ueshiba merely dabbled in a few others and never actually learned any of them in any significant way.

Also, Ueshiba never created aikido. Literally, the way of aiki. That honor belongs to two other men. The aiki of daito ryu would be from Sokaku Takeda. The reinvented, reimagined aiki of Modern Aikido would be Kisshomaru Ueshiba. Morihei Ueshiba followed the way of aiki as given to him by Sokaku Takeda, merging it with a spiritual ideology of his own design. The name "aikido" was given by a Japanese organization and Ueshiba acknowledged it.

Lastly, the aikido that most people study is not from Morihei Ueshiba. Trace the weapons training in your dojo and it most likely won't lead back to Ueshiba. Trace the tanto training and it won't lead back to Ueshiba. Trace koshinage and it won't lead back to Ueshiba. Many of the ki exerecises won't lead back to Ueshiba. Do you have spear training? Why not? Ueshiba did so. Aiki solo exercise training? Yep, Ueshiba had them. Were you told about contradictory energy? Why not, Ueshiba trained them. Etc, etc, etc. Far too many things different.

If you truly want to know the process, do the research. Then get out and train with people who have already done the research and are training it. Right now, there's quite a few out there and more appearing all the time.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 11:11 AM   #9
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Process or Result

Well
Many people...want...to be a part, claim or earnestly desire to share in his process, but if they cannot do the simple foundational things that did, what does that mean about being part of or understanding his "process?"
At what point does someone who: feels like any other person, who cannot explain the things he said...still be able to credibly state they share his process?
Have you considered that many have been seeking a different process entirely and don't even care about his process?

His process -once we got past the myth making and obfuscation of the aikikai was defined.
Further, once we look at the new translations of what he actually said-his thoughts on how to achieve aiki-were laid out as well.

This will help
1. Ask someone to explain them-in simple terms.
2. Ask to feel them-without allowing them to use waza- see if they feel like any other person.

Go find someone who can explain the things he said, and who actually feels different than normal people. You will reduce your search area dramatically.

Simple examples:
What does Ueshiba's definition of releasing the mountain echo mean?
When asked: many stated that when they escorted Ueshiba on to the mats in his old age he felt soft and had sagging old man muscles. Yet, when stepping onto the mat, it was like he inflated and he was hard as iron.
Can they do that?
Can they explain it?

If we allow ourselves to examine these things in a neutral fashion-truly seeking his process-certain conclusions are unavoidable, and a new hope for Aikido once again taking it's place as his art and his process, will have it emerge as it once was in his hands....one of the most powerful arts the world has known.
I believe it is within our grasp to do so, but first you have to get people to care about and agree on-his process, in it's fullness.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-02-2012 at 11:26 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 11:43 AM   #10
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 889
United_States
Offline
Re: Process or Result

The process is important. But you cannot really know what it was, or live it for yourself.

Your best bet is to review the information that has been put out there on how Ueshiba lived and how he trained. A bit is known about each. Seek out people who have put a lot of work into their own training, and use this to enhance your own myth of Osensei and develop your own process.

If the man believed his whole life and training history was a template worth passing on he would have done so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 12:35 PM   #11
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 250
Philippines
Offline
Re: Process or Result

Focus on the process, treat the result as a bonus.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 20 Peter Goldsbury Columns 22 10-20-2011 10:28 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 17 Peter Goldsbury Columns 41 06-03-2010 09:46 PM
057) Self-Correction in the Learning Process: Week of October 11, 2009 Marc Abrams External Aikido Blog Posts 2 10-16-2009 08:00 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 07-31-2009 11:19 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:19 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate