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Old 09-28-2012, 08:15 AM   #26
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
United_States
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Re: Judo first?

Oisin Bourke posted a great link elsewhere and I wanted to comment, but I think the comments belong better here, so I'll add them to this thread and link Oisin's thread here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21763

His link:

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Here is an excellent article about the great judoka Kyuzo Mifune.

Some very interesting quotes are included.

If anyone has not already done so, they should watch footage of Mifune. Poetry in motion!

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/0...y-robert-noha/
My comments:

Excellent, Oisin.

I'm surprised that no one at all has commented here.

That article on Mifune has some extremely uplifting and encouraging information. It's well worth reading carefully.

"From the great masters of the past he inherited the belief that nature was an important source of martial arts training. But he also believed that martial training came from equal doses of human and divine intelligence. He taught that human intelligence is essential in the pursuit of self-perfection through training. His philosophy of judo rested on both a respect for tradition and the value of the human creative spirit."

This may explain why a lot of aikido teachers don't like people with judo experience coming around. Judo people don't have the sense that they shouldn't question everything and many aikido teachers like students just to accept whatever they tell them.

But judo people always look for the bottom line--uke hitting the mat. If you tell them goo-goo, they start thinking, "Well, how does that get uke on the ground?" And the aikido teacher is saying, "It's not about getting uke on the ground..." etc.

Judo people immediately put their minds to a technique and try to figure out how to do it, how to do it better, why it works, what's wrong with it, what's their own error in perfecting it, which situations is it perfect for and so on. They analyze it physically and rationally at the same time, while applying their own creativity and keeping themselves open to divine inspiration.

""The true feature of judo is to show justice through reason: that no action is to be done without reason is most important.""

"The gist of judo is to find the original characteristic of the manů and to personify true freedom of thought and action."

And this doesn't mean anything weird or mystical: it is rather mundane in appearance. It's just "Bob Smith, CPA," who lives life very effectively, conducts his business solidly, maintains his home, keeps himself in good shape and is not conflicted within himself about what he wants to do and whether he will do it.

Judo fosters that direct understanding. One has an instant to see what could be done, decide to do it, and a milisecond to do it. Any hesitation spoils the moment. Judo people get used to operating in that moment and either doing nothing or acting with utter decisiveness, with complete relaxation because they have worked through the relationship between mind and body. It's not to say they will never be confused about what to do, among choices, but they won't get wound up while waiting. They'll stay loose and ready to act decisively while they observe the situation and adjust in preparation.

Aikido could develop this but only if there is a level of aliveness where there is, if not "winning and losing," there is at least "succeeding and failing." If uke just falls down, no matter what nage does, if nage can't feel any weight from uke, no resistance, docile following of nage's movements...rationality cannot get involved. There is no reason to do or not do any particular thing. And that's not "justice". Mifune used the term, but in the context of "things happening as they must according to the laws and principles of nature." It's justice for you to fall down, not because you're a "bad" person who "deserves" to fall down, but because you failed to put your foot in a place that supports your body.

Or you fail to throw uke (or you get thrown by uke) because you put yourself in a weak position relative to natural forces.

So the perfecting of self is a matter of Taking Care of Business, at base. It's to be a good citizen, but also to be creative and always apply reason.

In aikido, it's easy to get lost in the mush of "love the universe." We see so many jerks who play that "love the universe" tune.

Judo has something very important for the world and most aikido people could use a lot of it.

Thanks for posting.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:39 AM   #27
Chris Evans
Location: Berkeley, CA.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 169
United_States
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Smile Re: Judo first?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Oisin Bourke posted a great link elsewhere and I wanted to comment, but I think the comments belong better here, so I'll add them to this thread and link Oisin's thread here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21763

His link:

My comments:

Excellent, Oisin.

I'm surprised that no one at all has commented here.

That article on Mifune has some extremely uplifting and encouraging information. It's well worth reading carefully.

"From the great masters of the past he inherited the belief that nature was an important source of martial arts training. But he also believed that martial training came from equal doses of human and divine intelligence. He taught that human intelligence is essential in the pursuit of self-perfection through training. His philosophy of judo rested on both a respect for tradition and the value of the human creative spirit."

This may explain why a lot of aikido teachers don't like people with judo experience coming around. Judo people don't have the sense that they shouldn't question everything and many aikido teachers like students just to accept whatever they tell them.

But judo people always look for the bottom line--uke hitting the mat. If you tell them goo-goo, they start thinking, "Well, how does that get uke on the ground?" And the aikido teacher is saying, "It's not about getting uke on the ground..." etc.

Judo people immediately put their minds to a technique and try to figure out how to do it, how to do it better, why it works, what's wrong with it, what's their own error in perfecting it, which situations is it perfect for and so on. They analyze it physically and rationally at the same time, while applying their own creativity and keeping themselves open to divine inspiration.

""The true feature of judo is to show justice through reason: that no action is to be done without reason is most important.""

"The gist of judo is to find the original characteristic of the man… and to personify true freedom of thought and action."

And this doesn't mean anything weird or mystical: it is rather mundane in appearance. It's just "Bob Smith, CPA," who lives life very effectively, conducts his business solidly, maintains his home, keeps himself in good shape and is not conflicted within himself about what he wants to do and whether he will do it.

Judo fosters that direct understanding. One has an instant to see what could be done, decide to do it, and a milisecond to do it. Any hesitation spoils the moment. Judo people get used to operating in that moment and either doing nothing or acting with utter decisiveness, with complete relaxation because they have worked through the relationship between mind and body. It's not to say they will never be confused about what to do, among choices, but they won't get wound up while waiting. They'll stay loose and ready to act decisively while they observe the situation and adjust in preparation.

Aikido could develop this but only if there is a level of aliveness where there is, if not "winning and losing," there is at least "succeeding and failing." If uke just falls down, no matter what nage does, if nage can't feel any weight from uke, no resistance, docile following of nage's movements...rationality cannot get involved. There is no reason to do or not do any particular thing. And that's not "justice". Mifune used the term, but in the context of "things happening as they must according to the laws and principles of nature." It's justice for you to fall down, not because you're a "bad" person who "deserves" to fall down, but because you failed to put your foot in a place that supports your body.

Or you fail to throw uke (or you get thrown by uke) because you put yourself in a weak position relative to natural forces.

So the perfecting of self is a matter of Taking Care of Business, at base. It's to be a good citizen, but also to be creative and always apply reason.

In aikido, it's easy to get lost in the mush of "love the universe." We see so many jerks who play that "love the universe" tune.

Judo has something very important for the world and most aikido people could use a lot of it.

Thanks for posting.

David
Outstanding: thank you, David.

Many aikidoka, yudansha, disguise their delusion or ignorance with the telling and useful admonition to be more "relaxed" to their uke Sure, there are room for interpretation. I appreciate the yudansha uke that shows lively resistance to my yet-to-be proficient nage/tori waza.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 09-29-2012, 05:47 PM   #28
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,117
United Kingdom
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Richard Stevens wrote: View Post
I've been in a handful of physical confrontations and it was my Judo background (and a little luck) that kept me from incurring serious injuries. I love the training I do now, but when push comes to shove my first instinct is to get inside, grab some clothes and send ass over head.

If you're end goal is to practice Aikido, just start training. If you feel like something is missing then cross-train in another art.
Dear Richard,
I think you first instinct to get close to a potential attacker is not too clever.By getting close to a person this allows the would be assailant an opportunity to attack you.What would you do if a knife was involved?Judo is good , however the combative distance is too near.The minute you get near [within arms length] you immediately become vulnerable to kick/punches/knee in the groin and the Glasgow Kiss[head butt].
My own personal strategy on being faced by an angry chap is to be all sweetness and light and at the same time check out if there happens to be a 4 by 2 available if charm does not pacify the opponents raging spirit.
Cheer,Joe.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:48 AM   #29
Richard Stevens
Location: Indianapolis
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 165
United_States
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Richard,
I think you first instinct to get close to a potential attacker is not too clever.By getting close to a person this allows the would be assailant an opportunity to attack you.What would you do if a knife was involved?Judo is good , however the combative distance is too near.The minute you get near [within arms length] you immediately become vulnerable to kick/punches/knee in the groin and the Glasgow Kiss[head butt].
My own personal strategy on being faced by an angry chap is to be all sweetness and light and at the same time check out if there happens to be a 4 by 2 available if charm does not pacify the opponents raging spirit.
Cheer,Joe.
And the minute I get "without" arms length they have the range to pull their gun and shoot me. I live in Indianapolis, not the UK. I've never seen someone with a knife here, but I've seen plenty of guns.

In regards to cross-training. I recently tried Kendo for the first time and it made me realize how bad my Iaido is...
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:31 PM   #30
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 307
Ireland
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Re: Judo first?

David,

Glad you enjoyed the interview. I"ve never practiced judo, but, like you, I think other budoka could gain great insight from practicioners such as Mochizuki, Mifune and Kano. They were great martial artists and highly educated men; a credit to the traditional educational ideal of the "whole person", something sorely lacking in our world, IMO.

I found these quotes especially interesting for expressing deep stuff in unpretentious terms;
He taught that "unhurried timing" is an important aspect of judo and of life as a whole.

"In a match, if a contestant thinks of some technique to try on an opponent, his idea will be detected out by the latter and will cause his failure. This is because his idea is fixed on one point, which hinders his free action." (Ibid, p. 30)

He also points out that a technique never exists in the abstract but at a specific moment in time.

"However the center of gravity of an object or the center of a form cannot be in existence before hand, but it comes into existence (only) the moment when an object or form is fixed." (Ibid, p. 29)

Something to ponder the next time you're on the mat!
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:09 PM   #31
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
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Re: Judo first?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
He taught that "unhurried timing" is an important aspect of judo and of life as a whole.
I was just thinking about that kind of thing just before I read that.

I was thinking how people are so often in a hurry to get to the end of things and the one who can keep patience can often capitalize on the mistakes the other makes in haste, whether it be judo or legal cases or whatever.

Danny DaCosta also posted similar comments in an article on his blog by Alan Ruddock, who had trained with O Sensei, saying that you don't want to just whirl right through a technique but make your entry and don't continue until you feel the opponent's intent moving where you want it to, then you enter the second phase in that direction. Then you feel his intention shift before you go to the next part and so on.

http://shinjido.com/blog/?p=608

It's a little tricky to read since it's sometimes DaCosta quoting Henry Kono quoting Alan Ruddock, so read carefully. Well worth it.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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