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Old 09-22-2012, 11:24 AM   #26
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Dan,
It sounds like a lot of what interests you in "Aiki" is the fact that it's special, unique and different then anything anyone else could do. If you found out that "Aiki" was something very simple, that anyone could do, but few ever realized it, would you be interested in studying it?

As I (and I believe a lot of others) describe "Aiki", you are correct, it is available to everyone. You don't have to join a special club, or know all the right people. People use "Aiki", as I describe it, everyday. When you hear a beautiful song, or see a great friendship, you are seeing examples of "Aiki".

The difficulty in practicing the art of Aikido, the part that is special and unique, is not the "Aiki" itself, it's the ability to use "Aiki" in a crazy situation. An Aikidoka has the ability to find accord with someone who is trying desperately to harm them. The ability to keep yourself under control, and not lash out at an attacker, but instead find a harmonious interaction. A way to make your "Ki" and theirs fit together.

I don't believe there is anything exclusive about Aiki. I believe it is available to the whole world, anytime one is ready to accept it. I do however believe accepting it is very difficult. I have spent a large part of my life trying to understand this very simple thing, Aiki.

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Old 09-22-2012, 01:06 PM   #27
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Dan,
It sounds like a lot of what interests you in "Aiki" is the fact that it's special, unique and different then anything anyone else could do. If you found out that "Aiki" was something very simple, that anyone could do, but few ever realized it, would you be interested in studying it?
No. I am not interested in IS and Aiki because others can't do it.
a) others can do it
b) that isn't a motivator for me.

What interests me in IS and Aiki:
1. Is that it is powerful, soft, and controlling.
2. Is that it works very well in combatives
3. Is that it is mentally and physically challenging
4. Is that as I am aging I am actually better than I was when I was younger
5. That it is devastatingly effective to an opponent-yet very good for my health/body
6. That it relieves stress
7. That it has a long proven history
8. You can train the primary tenants of it..... solo.
9. Last -and to answer your point-
Another benefit (not the motivator) is that few know it and can use it well. However, this is not a reason for me to be interested in something. Now, were more and more people to know it and be able to use it?
Then it would not just interest me-it would be a requirement to be capable in budo. And I think that is where we are heading.

Quote:
As I (and I believe a lot of others) describe "Aiki",.... it is available to everyone.
I understand that VERY well Chris.
But...it isn't aiki or IS as mentioned (but not displayed) in the OP video.
a) I understand what you are describing,
b) You don't understand what IS and aiki was and is in a classical model.
Hence my comment that aiki as you and others describe it is actually a re-defining of the term. Nothing I have read as source material agrees with your definitions. In fact most speak outright against it.

Ueshiba was clear in describing his models.
1. When asked to define it; he drew a circle and described it as opposing powers (in you).
2. When asked, he said the mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals (in you)
3. When asked he said it was in Heaven/earth/man which released the mountain echo (in you).
4. When asked he said no one is following him because they do not understand yin and yang...(refer back to #1 and #2 #3)
Everything you think IS and aiki is... comes after. And it has nothing to do with two peoples movements "blending" like you think it does. Ueshiba was clear that his models resulted in him EXERTING HIS WILL.

Everything I just laid out isn't even Ueshiba's alone. He was quoting work that created other budo giants through the ages in different cultures....through same model. Hence..they "got it" too.

Quote:
I have spent a large part of my life trying to understand this very simple thing, Aiki.
Me too. So have hundreds of other teachers I have met. I'd say understanding the above quotes is a good beginning. I know many Shihan and other teachers who trained (some up to 40 years) who said "Time to start over!"
And they were VERY happy to do so.
I understand that there is a huge movement that does not follow Ueshiba and doesn't care. I understand that there are those who want to follow Ueshiba's model but don't know how. I also think there are those who are starting to get what he was really talking about and they are chasing the old man again!!!
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-22-2012 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 09-22-2012, 06:29 PM   #28
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

When I said, "I have spent a large part of my life trying to understand this very simple thing, Aiki". I didn't mean it as a badge. It's just that you often make the comment to the effect of, if it was so simple why would anyone study it. I do; I study this very simple thing. I believe it is very simple, yet amazingly difficult.

The idea of being able to find accord in the midst of conflict- it's very impressive to me. Something that I think is worth devoting a life time too. That is what I call Aiki, simple, but not easy.

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Old 09-22-2012, 06:45 PM   #29
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Hi Chris
Aiki is not simple
There are many pieces of the puzzle
some you are not even aware of what is simple
about that.
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:23 PM   #30
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Maybe what is being defined as aiki by Chris is the postwar/modern definition of aiki...I could see Ueshiba now..."That's not AIKIDO...!!!"...and then storm out of the dojo. Thank K Ueshiba/Tohei for that(thanks Stan great article). I think that this is where the IS/Aiki debate starts...
As far as sumo goes...would have been nice to see Sokaku Takeda playing sumo after training with a smile on his toothless face!!! Maybe then we might have caught a glimpse at aiki at work...!!!
Thanks :0) ,
ChrisW
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:05 AM   #31
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I didn't mean it as a badge. It's just that you often make the comment to the effect of, if it was so simple why would anyone study it.
Hi Chris
That's not my point. I didn't say "If it was so simple why would anyone study it?"
I said "If that was all it was-why would seasoned martial artists (and in a certain era; warriors) be impressed by it?"

Quote:
The idea of being able to find accord in the midst of conflict- it's very impressive to me. That is what I call Aiki, simple, but not easy.
Finding accord in the midst of conflict can be arrived at in two dramatically different ways; one is aiki, the other is external blending movement that anyone off the street can do. Whether simple -or more refined- it's certainly not something I would devote a lifetime too. On the other hand what aiki was and is in a classical sense is uniting and manipulating opposing forces in you-which then cancels out forces applied to you. This was what Ueshiba meant by being able to impose his will on others. The superior artist controls the forces of the person trying to do something. Cooperation need not apply! This was and is a far more effective and powerful and deep study, that captured the minds of warriors for generations.
As far as complex and difficult and impressive compared to normal movement? It is off the charts.
Dan
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:03 PM   #32
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

The allusion you are making here:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
that anyone off the street can do.
Is saying that what I would call Aiki, is something trite, and unworthy of study.

Everyday I see most people (myself included) over react to situations that they see as challenging. When something "bad" is going to happen to us, most forget about the now, forget about the situation that is happening and fret about how bad it's going to be, or how little they prepared. Most of us forget about the relationship we have with our situation, and fall victim to the situation. Some of us fall victim by falling apart, some of us fall victim by lashing out inappropriately at the situation, but often we fall victim.

When was the last time you acted inappropriately towards someone you cared about, because you were not clear headed in a tense situation; yelling at your wife or kids? What I'm speaking about here is only Kokyu and Musubi, not even a full Aiki interaction (as I describe it). Yet, if you could simply do this small part of Aiki, your life, far beyond the ability to physically defend yourself, would be greatly improved.

You like to talk about how Aiki as I have described it, is simply external. Far from it friend, Aiki starts with your core being, in your spirit. Without internal ability you could never have what I call Aiki. Aiki has four steps, Kokyu, Musubi, Awase, Zanshin. You like to focus only on the physical Awase, and speak of how children, grannies and anyone off the street can do that. In a very basic sense you are right, all of those people can "move". It's moving appropriately that is difficult. It's moving in an Aiki way that is difficult. Aiki is not just physical, Aiki can be used in everything we do, conversation, work place interactions, music, art, life!

For me, Ueshiba brought a way for human kind to interact on deeper level. Not simply a means of being more powerful. While working Aiki in a martial format has great benefits, Aiki as a whole goes far beyond any physical feat. I learn and perfect my Aiki in the Dojo, doing hard physical activity, but I practice Aiki out in the world, with everyone I meet, every life I touch.

I do not think of what I call Aiki as trite.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 09-23-2012 at 12:06 PM.

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Old 09-23-2012, 12:34 PM   #33
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
The allusion you are making here:

Is saying that what I would call Aiki, is something trite, and unworthy of study.

Everyday I see most people (myself included) over react to situations that they see as challenging. When something "bad" is going to happen to us, most forget about the now, forget about the situation that is happening and fret about how bad it's going to be, or how little they prepared. Most of us forget about the relationship we have with our situation, and fall victim to the situation. Some of us fall victim by falling apart, some of us fall victim by lashing out inappropriately at the situation, but often we fall victim.

When was the last time you acted inappropriately towards someone you cared about, because you were not clear headed in a tense situation; yelling at your wife or kids? What I'm speaking about here is only Kokyu and Musubi, not even a full Aiki interaction (as I describe it). Yet, if you could simply do this small part of Aiki, your life, far beyond the ability to physically defend yourself, would be greatly improved.

You like to talk about how Aiki as I have described it, is simply external. Far from it friend, Aiki starts with your core being, in your spirit. Without internal ability you could never have what I call Aiki. Aiki has four steps, Kokyu, Musubi, Awase, Zanshin. You like to focus only on the physical Awase, and speak of how children, grannies and anyone off the street can do that. In a very basic sense you are right, all of those people can "move". It's moving appropriately that is difficult. It's moving in an Aiki way that is difficult. Aiki is not just physical, Aiki can be used in everything we do, conversation, work place interactions, music, art, life!

For me, Ueshiba brought a way for human kind to interact on deeper level. Not simply a means of being more powerful. While working Aiki in a martial format has great benefits, Aiki as a whole goes far beyond any physical feat. I learn and perfect my Aiki in the Dojo, doing hard physical activity, but I practice Aiki out in the world, with everyone I meet, every life I touch.

I do not think of what I call Aiki as trite.
Working so I don't have time for a full reply. I get what you are saying Chris. I agree with it all-except at calling that ...aiki.
And.....if you notice you keep putting words in my mouth. I am not saying that what you are describing is trite. It just isn't the high level deep stuff that captured the attention of so many generations.

Moving in an "Aiki way" as you mention begins with no movement at all. In fact it is the hardest part. Next is moving solo...still very difficult. The last is connecting to someone. By then it should be almost automatic. Oddly enough most of the greats were all known for following that model.

I already spelled out what Ueshiba said. It ties in with what ICMA have to say as well. And it isn't what YOU are calling aiki. Whether it is one, or two million; it doesn't change a teaching that was known and taught looong before we showed up. All of this is just redefining of something most people simply do not understand how to do or how it functions. Hence the reason so many fail against it. Something which is almost an exact quote of Ueshiba as well. They fail, because they do not understand Yin and Yang. And like much of everything else he wrote...here we see a modern ICMA masterclass fellow (LCD) go to Japan and tune everyone he touched and what did he say?
Well he...all but quotes Ueshiba
"What is this ai-ki? Where is yin? Where is yang? How then can there be aiki-ki?
The more things are looked at, the more consistent they are becoming. No one is going to arrive at Ueshiba's model or the basic teachings that have spanned Asia and created a stream of greats....from doing kata and trying to match movement or get out of the way.
So...all cool. I like your train of thought. I like your examples. and I agree. It just isn't internal power and it isn't aiki.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2012 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:45 PM   #34
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

We disagree.

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Old 09-23-2012, 12:51 PM   #35
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

I know. But it was a discussion of the disagreement.
Dan
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:28 AM   #36
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Well, I don't think the term Aiki is trademarked anywhere, so I guess anyone can slap it on as a label to describe whatever they want. So to differentiate between the various uses of the term, I think we need to add clarification to the term - such as something like the internal Aiki of Ueshiba M and Takeda, or the external Aiki of Ueshiba K and the rest of the Aikikai. Once the differences are understood and agreed upon as differences, then folks can go check it all out and decide for themselves which path of Aiki they wish to follow. But without an objective understanding and hands on experience with both, no one should be making statements that one way is or is not the true Aiki. Dan, Chris, and I have obvious experience (at various levels, of course) with both and have chosen the internal way of Takeda's and Ueshiba M, Aiki.

As they say, YMMV

Greg
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:10 AM   #37
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Not that this is the thread for this, but.
The problem about saying "of Ueshiba M" and "of Ueshiba K" is the fact that Ueshiba K was trying to do is fathers Aiki. Also, Ueshiba K probably knew his father better then any of us. To say that you know better what someone was describing then their own son did is pretty presumptuous.

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:17 PM   #38
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Not that this is the thread for this, but.
The problem about saying "of Ueshiba M" and "of Ueshiba K" is the fact that Ueshiba K was trying to do is fathers Aiki. Also, Ueshiba K probably knew his father better then any of us. To say that you know better what someone was describing then their own son did is pretty presumptuous.
Oh, I don't know - I think it is a pretty safe assumption to state that the son did not have what the father had; so, there was a difference. There has been a lot of independent corroboration on a lot of the Aiki/IS aspects of Ueshiba M over the last few years here in threads, as well as elsewhere, that seam to support Dan's statements concerning Ueshiba M and aiki as he saw - those that have been following those discussion should be familiar with the various points and there really is no need to go into any detail here.

Greg
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:24 PM   #39
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

I think it would be much simpler to say "HAiki"- Dan Harden's Aiki, when referencing the "IP IT IS" idea of Aiki. Since Dan is the major promoting factor behind this idea of Aiki.

HAiki clearly shows a difference, and give's credit to it's main promoting force.

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:39 PM   #40
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I think it would be much simpler to say "HAiki"- Dan Harden's Aiki, when referencing the "IP IT IS" idea of Aiki. Since Dan is the major promoting factor behind this idea of Aiki.

HAiki clearly shows a difference, and give's credit to it's main promoting force.
I think that Dan pretty clearly says that it's not his idea, not his method, not his creation.

I'm sure he'll reply himself, though...

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Li : 09-24-2012 at 12:45 PM.

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:42 PM   #41
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

But his promotion... I like HAiki.

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:46 PM   #42
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
But his promotion... I like HAiki.
Why don't you just call your Aiki "HAiki" for Hein?

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:58 PM   #43
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I think that Dan pretty clearly says that it's not his idea, not his method, not his creation.

I'm sure he'll reply himself, though...

Best,

Chris
Very true - I think people need to step out more from inside their Aikido box and look at some of the other sources of IP/IS from India and China and then they just might see that a lot of what Ueshiba called aiki is all right there.

Greg
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:14 PM   #44
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Except that what he called Aiki was different to such. Just as what he called budo.

Peace.G.
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:26 PM   #45
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
But his promotion... I like HAiki.
Hi Chris,

That isn't quite correct. The promotion is by me, Chris, Greg, Marc, Bill, etc, etc, etc. Dan talks about what aiki really is, according to Ueshiba and other great martial masters. However, in the aikido world, the promotion is via all of us.

Now, take into account just who these people are who are promoting aiki. Bill Gleason has a world of experience that dwarfs yours and mine. Chris Li has trained with a host of Japanese aikido people, shihan to doshu. Etc, etc, etc. The combined years of experience probably reaches into the thousands from all of us. Singularly, from 10, 20, 30, and 40 years of training experience in aikido. Do you really think we don't "get" Modern Aikido's definition of "aiki"?

You mention Kisshomaru knowing his father better than anyone else, but ... here's the tough part about Kisshomaru and Tokyo hombu. Do you know the differences between what Yamaguchi taught at Tokyo, at his home dojo, *and* at his private dojo? Do you know the differences between what was taught at Tokyo and at Iwama? How about Tokyo and Shingu? Etc. What Shirata taught at Tokyo and what he taught elsewhere? Etc. Why did Tomiki not stay with Tokyo hombu? How about Shioda? Mochizuki? Why Shirata? What all was added at Tokyo hombu that Ueshiba didn't do? Why? What all was tossed out? Why? If you can answer all that, I'll give you that you're right about Kisshomaru knowing his father better than anyone else. If you can't ... perhaps some research is in order?

Mark
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:33 PM   #46
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

It's really simple. Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do. You know that, I know that, we agree on that.

Dan is the guy who's out there promoting this idea, he gave it to the people you are saying are it's promoters, like you Mark. The other people help Dan promote this idea.

It's simpler to call Dan's (and those who support Dan) variation of Aiki something different then what most people in the Aikido world calls Aiki. Because it is different...

I'll be calling what you guys are up to HAiki, and Dan's style HAikido from here on out, either way.

Also this thread drift is so far, I think we need a new thread, if this is going to go on.

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Old 09-24-2012, 01:55 PM   #47
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

I'm paraphrasing something Ark said a few years back along with some comments of my own which I think apply.

Budo is like a religion: the practitioner takes some mental construct, a set of principles, and keeps those in mind as an ideal, and then goes through stylized moves that allow him or her to feel as though they are putting those ideals into physical motion and instilling discipline in themselves (budo is intended for social benefit). With that there is some exercise for the body. However, no great development of the body ever happens, nor detailed understanding of it; ergo, the understanding people find from doing budo is really not very deep at all. This is Shin(mind) gi (technique) tai (body) in the order expressed in the phrase.

Someone could take on aikido as a form of gyo, or asthetic exercise, but I haven't seen much explicit instruction of that nature in any dojo I have trained.

On the other hand, studying "aiki" along the lines of bujutsu follows tai(body) gi (technique) shin(mind), exactly the opposite: the practitioner forces his or her body to undergo specific exercises that change the body and give him or her some deep understanding of the body, to great detail. This leads to an understanding of the principles. As that understanding develops, the body can be used to perform so-called techniques (which are not really special movements, but only the body in motion according with the understanding given the practitioner), and finally, when the practitioner is really powerful, he or she may decide to no hurt or harm an opponent and use the training as a kind of ascetic exercise.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:39 PM   #48
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
It's really simple. Most of the Aikido world doesn't call Aiki what you guys do. You know that, I know that, we agree on that.

Dan is the guy who's out there promoting this idea, he gave it to the people you are saying are it's promoters, like you Mark. The other people help Dan promote this idea.

It's simpler to call Dan's (and those who support Dan) variation of Aiki something different then what most people in the Aikido world calls Aiki. Because it is different...

I'll be calling what you guys are up to HAiki, and Dan's style HAikido from here on out, either way.

Also this thread drift is so far, I think we need a new thread, if this is going to go on.
There are others who don't seem to be a student or even a fan of Dan who seem to share this idea, like here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20024.
BTW, a similar exchange of points occured from posts #3 and #5 in that thread.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 09-24-2012 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:00 PM   #49
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

OK, just back from happy hour on the veranda deck of my yacht - let's see we all are at - ah, no change I see. Good link Dave; it brings home my earlier point that this stuff has been discussed Ad infinitum to no logical conclusion and agreement to disagree for some - however, I think there is progress being made for those that are willing to get out and explore the other side.

Greg
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Old 09-24-2012, 06:15 PM   #50
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Re: Sumo: light vs heavy and IS?

Hello All,

Here we go around the mullberry bush, the mullberry bush...or shoud I say ring around the rosy, a pocket fill of poseys...!!! I can't get enough of this. At times it's hard to understand!!! Many have said it before(I'm along for the train wreck)!!!

TakeCareEnjoy,

CW

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