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Old 09-17-2012, 09:54 AM   #51
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
And yet one more example of tediousness.
Tedious? In this case I wouldn't say so. I too was thrown by the statement as if he was a man of few words. Quite the opposite, so precise would be more apt.

Apart from all this the meanings of control and manipulation can be looked at from the view of good control or bad control, or many other forms of control and then onto intention behind the control etc. Thus the debate could go on.

Now to add one more thing which I feel is pertinent to Aikido and indeed pertinent to the types of things Ueshiba said.

For some I get them practicing the principle of non-control. This is neither control nor not controlling. Yet it is eye opening. Here again in communication especially on a forum it would lead to various assumptions and yet it is a precise term use by me.

Peace.G.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:06 PM   #52
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
add on top of that with differences in experience and cultural, you will find how difficult it is to communicate. i found that this lesson seemed to work well https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits-habit5.php, at least when i paid attention to it.
It sounds as good advice, although normally I'd steer away from anything that has to do with Covey and his organization.

Tom
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:43 PM   #53
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
thought i would respond to this. short answer: yes, i did and do and will continue until they are 18 years of age, out of my house, and gone to college.

my grandfather to my father: you don't want to go to college? fine. the army will draft you. i will prepare a plot for your grave. (this is during the vietnam war)
my father: i believed the medical college will accept my application. (dad became a doctor)

father to me (took me to hospital where they treated drug addicts and long time smokers): see those people with only skin on bones that looked like corpses? druggies! see those people with tubes ran out of their body to drain their lung fluids? smokers!
me: haven't touched or went near drug or ciggarettes eversince. i still remembered the images after all these years.

manipulation and control are just tools. by themselves have no evil or good. it's the people who wield it that determines its association. same goes with power.
If you reread the thread then you will see that there was no mention of parenthood until you did.
As far as I know the OP talked about Aikido. So did I (although I was also thinking about the way people control and manipulate nature - a professional habbit, I am alweays thinking about nature).

I could have told you a similar story about my father.
But I do not understand why you would call that control or manipulation - it is a confrontation with reality, harsh maybe, but nevertheless a good lesson. The purpose of it is to teach. Not to tighten the reigns. So where is the control? Or the manipulation?

I remember a children's class in the Aikido dojo where a parent hit the child on the head because the child forgot to bow at the entrance of the dojo. On another occasion a child was yelled at because he could not tie his obi. One parent went as far as to call his child names like stupid and idiot. All examples of parents using control and manipulation the make the child do something that see as important.

Considering this, is it really that strange that I define control and manipulation as a form of aggression?

But perhaps Covey is right after all and do we indeed react from our "autobiographical" experiences.

Tom
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:48 PM   #54
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Normally, I abstain from posting to threads on which I have received my aikiweb moderation spanking... however not today.

I thought clarified myself with control and manipulation as a means to an end (nurture). Not that controlling and manipulation are the definition of nurturing. I also gave you a hint at the intention of such control, by saying the child doesn't need to be aware it is happening. Does that context indicate to you aggression? Simply the fact of talking about control in the children context vs. the martial context should have conveyed the intent. While there are parents out there that don't abide an instinctual connection of love and bonding with their own children, maybe I could have been given the benefit of the doubt as to my (normal) intentions towards my own children.

But you choose to parse language much like a computer, needing things spelled out explicitly. One of the pleasures of conversing with humans vs. instructing computers is you DON'T have to spell things out, or shouldn't have to. One can marvel at all the multiple definitions of various words and how we understand one another (and indeed it is amazing - as any computer scientist researching natural language parsing might tell you), however it is in our nature to use the context of a word to pair down the possible meanings into an understanding, again, within the context.

And when that dialog devolves into quibbling about the definition of "my" and what it means in different context, that speaks volumes in and of itself.

Which gets back to my assertion above, you seem to need things explicitly spelled out, and here you offer your schema how a conversation works. What an unnecessarily tedious method of communication, especially in an informal setting such as this.
First of all - when someone says as I did; let us just agree that we disagree - then he is offering a gentle way out. It is meant to prevent a conversation becoming toxic.
I thought that someone like you who is skilled in natural language and prefers a conversation where not everything needs to be spelled out would surely appreciate the subtlety of such an offer.

Second, if you choose to come back in a conversation after you have been using derogatory words, insults and even calling me names, don't you think an apology is appropriate and in effect even acquired?

To answer your points in short, despite your rudeness: No, you did not clarify that you mean control and manipulation as a means to an end. But even if you would have, what does that involve?

I was not quibbling about the definition of the word "MY". That is what you do!
I have never counted them, but I probably have tens of thousands of animals and I feel very responsible for all of them. And yet I cannot say that I OWN them. I most certainly do not control them and it is impossible to manipulate them. Of course for you there should be no need to spell out how this can be.

I was not aware of any AikiWeb moderation on you. But now that you despite this moderation and my offer to agree that we just disagree and leave it at that, have come back with more non-issues, I think I have to concede that I probably have been wrong all along.
Contrary to more considerate people it takes apparently a lot of moderation, control and manipulation to get trough to immature, insensitive and dominating people.

Warriors have left, I will leave the field to you.

Tom

Last edited by Tom Verhoeven : 09-17-2012 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:18 PM   #55
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
If you reread the thread then you will see that there was no mention of parenthood until you did.
As far as I know the OP talked about Aikido. So did I (although I was also thinking about the way people control and manipulate nature - a professional habbit, I am alweays thinking about nature).

I could have told you a similar story about my father.
But I do not understand why you would call that control or manipulation - it is a confrontation with reality, harsh maybe, but nevertheless a good lesson. The purpose of it is to teach. Not to tighten the reigns. So where is the control? Or the manipulation?
i mentioned parenthood in respond to folks mentioned that they don't "control or manipulation". to me, control and manipulation are required being a parent. the story between my grandfather and my father, that's control. my grandfather wanted my father to go to college, my father rebelled against that. in the end, my father did what my grandfather wanted. the story of my father and i, is manipulation. he used real life scenarios to change my view of things to come. and to the topic of thread "...no one can reach inside you and make you feel", your love ones can and would. some are more subtle than other. my father can still get inside my head even when he had long since gone from this world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGDA0Hecw1k i heard my father voice talking to my sons. they can and will reach inside you and make you feel. it's a price for being a human. glad to pay it.

as far as aikido goes, there are folks who can get inside your head before physical contact made. you bowed in, right? already inside your head and made you do things.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:01 PM   #56
cloudshapes
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

I could be wrong but I believe that Mary was simply trying to say that how we respond to or feel in a situation may be impacted after training...that our response and perceptions are shaped by our experiences and that Aikido/Martial Arts training may change how we respond, view to or feel in a situation...however, that seem to have gotten "lost in translation." I've read it and re-read the thread and it seems that several words have triggered something beyond a healthy debate. The collective wealth of Aikido and Martial Arts experience represented here is better than that. When we enter into the realm of harsh words, we are not honoring our communion with one another. We are a community in Aikido practice after all. That is a sacred honor we share with each other. When we use harsh words with each other that violates our responsibility to one another to honor each other's Aikido/life journey. I am not saying that we shouldn't disagree or having various view points, that simply adds flavor to life. However, how do we practice Aikido inside the dojo if we don't practice it outside the dojo as we relate to and interact with each other? And how do we practice Aikido with each other if we don't practice it within our inner selves? We are all one Aikido community after all.....when we are harsh with each other, we are harsh with ourselves... Peace and light, Marium
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:19 AM   #57
Anthony Loeppert
Dojo: Aikido of Del Mar
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
First of all - when someone says as I did; let us just agree that we disagree - then he is offering a gentle way out. It is meant to prevent a conversation becoming toxic.
I thought that someone like you who is skilled in natural language and prefers a conversation where not everything needs to be spelled out would surely appreciate the subtlety of such an offer.
Oh I heard that and was willing to let things drop, though usually in such a case, both - metaphorically - turn around and go their separate ways. You continued on your argument.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Second, if you choose to come back in a conversation after you have been using derogatory words, insults and even calling me names, don't you think an apology is appropriate and in effect even acquired?
I will apologize as soon as you tell me you have human (normally I wouldn't feel the need to clarify) offspring and have experience being a parent. Those derogatory words were under the heartfelt assumption you don't have children yourself. Slights on hypothetical children I will not apologize for, nor will I apologize for demeaning hypothetical parental skills.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I have never counted them, but I probably have tens of thousands of animals and I feel very responsible for all of them. And yet I cannot say that I OWN them. I most certainly do not control them and it is impossible to manipulate them.
Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
I was not aware of any AikiWeb moderation on you. But now that you despite this moderation and my offer to agree that we just disagree and leave it at that, have come back with more non-issues, I think I have to concede that I probably have been wrong all along.
Contrary to more considerate people it takes apparently a lot of moderation, control and manipulation to get trough to immature, insensitive and dominating people.
I thought it was somehow appropriate to this thread which is why I purposefully included that information.

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Warriors have left, I will leave the field to you.
Doctor Dolittle has left the building, I repeat Doctor Dolittle has left the building.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:12 AM   #58
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Actually, it's more "hoist by your own petard". Shakespeare, ya know. Or something.
Feel free to comment on this thread, it was created just for you:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21761
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:22 AM   #59
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Yet it is eye opening. Here again in communication especially on a forum it would lead to various assumptions and yet it is a precise term use by me.
Feel free to comment as well. I meant the distinction between accuracy and precision as applied to words which I'm not sure I conveyed properly in that post. Anyway, I hope this message finds you well.

Anthony
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:03 AM   #60
lbb
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Feel free to comment on this thread, it was created just for you:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21761
Anthony,

I see that my efforts to communicate are failing. I was trying to poke some gentle fun at your rather grim determination to nail down definitions and create a consensus understanding. My attempted point was that we all hear and use words through our set of filters, no matter how we may strive to do otherwise, and that none of us has perfect diction (the use of "precision" and "accuracy" as interchangeable terms being one example of poor diction that sails right over the heads of most people). I agree that we have a responsibility in communication to use words in a mindful manner, but I don't believe that we can ever entirely discard our filters, or hope to use language that is so brilliantly clear that there can be no possible ambiguity or misinterpretation in how it is received. At a certain point, I believe, we must simply acknowledge that there's some slop in the process, and factor that into our efforts to communicate (giving and receiving) effectively. I'm sorry if my mild attempt at humor was offensive.
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:34 PM   #61
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

Quote:
Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Feel free to comment as well. I meant the distinction between accuracy and precision as applied to words which I'm not sure I conveyed properly in that post. Anyway, I hope this message finds you well.

Anthony
Hi. I'm well thanks. Hadn't read that link but have now.

My view is that a word has a precise definition and conveys thus a particular concept. Many say how Japanese or whatever other language may have 'numerous' meanings for words but again I would say what's new? None more so than English, many definitions of a particular word and like you say each with a specific meaning.

I wouldn't apply the term accuracy to a word so much but more to the statement which contains the word.

Having said that I think we should allow for the opportunity for another to misunderstand what we have said for it will usually be based on them using a different definition for the word used.

If I told you I am a bit worn out because I have been boxing 20 chickens what concept would you see? Someone no doubt would misunderstand and reply in what to me would then seem to be uncalled for manner. Thus a downward spiraling communication ensues.

There again some may just be being facetious but generally it's the former.

Knowing all this it is then even more important to hold to a rule of staying polite and not being rude. That's step one I would say.

Anyway, it's all interesting stuff. In alignment with this thread....nothing to get annoyed about. Be happy about it, it's all good for it's a chance to learn.

Peace.G.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:17 PM   #62
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Anthony,

I see that my efforts to communicate are failing. I was trying to poke some gentle fun at your rather grim determination to nail down definitions and create a consensus understanding. My attempted point was that we all hear and use words through our set of filters, no matter how we may strive to do otherwise, and that none of us has perfect diction (the use of "precision" and "accuracy" as interchangeable terms being one example of poor diction that sails right over the heads of most people). I agree that we have a responsibility in communication to use words in a mindful manner, but I don't believe that we can ever entirely discard our filters, or hope to use language that is so brilliantly clear that there can be no possible ambiguity or misinterpretation in how it is received. At a certain point, I believe, we must simply acknowledge that there's some slop in the process, and factor that into our efforts to communicate (giving and receiving) effectively. I'm sorry if my mild attempt at humor was offensive.
Then we do understand each other now. My confusion was "Not entirely tongue in cheek," taking the meaning to of that line to be "I also believe you to be incorrect" in using the word accuracy.

Contrary to what people might derive from my posts, I have an active sense of humor.

Anthony
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:45 PM   #63
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Having said that I think we should allow for the opportunity for another to misunderstand what we have said for it will usually be based on them using a different definition for the word used.

If I told you I am a bit worn out because I have been boxing 20 chickens what concept would you see? Someone no doubt would misunderstand and reply in what to me would then seem to be uncalled for manner. Thus a downward spiraling communication ensues.

There again some may just be being facetious but generally it's the former.

Knowing all this it is then even more important to hold to a rule of staying polite and not being rude. That's step one I would say.
In general, I agree. I would add, the assumptions of others we enter into discussions with should be as positive as possible as well (until proven incorrect), as doing otherwise starts the downward spiral as well. That said, I'll take something from this exchange and attempt to grow from it.

I'm not so petty or small that I believe I can't improve myself.
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:51 PM   #64
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

Just to prove (and approve of) your point Graham, I'll make the following lame joke:

Aha! boxing 20 chickens! Now the secrets of Graham's style start to come out...
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:05 PM   #65
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

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Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
Just to prove (and approve of) your point Graham, I'll make the following lame joke:

Aha! boxing 20 chickens! Now the secrets of Graham's style start to come out...
Ha, ha..... Luv it! Now that's what I call good humour.....Now when I'm big and strong I might even take on a wild flower.

Peace.G.
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:31 PM   #66
jonreading
 
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Re: Even at Boot Camp...no one can reach inside you and make you feel. Your feelings

Quote:
I remember a children's class in the Aikido dojo where a parent hit the child on the head because the child forgot to bow at the entrance of the dojo. On another occasion a child was yelled at because he could not tie his obi. One parent went as far as to call his child names like stupid and idiot. All examples of parents using control and manipulation the make the child do something that see as important.
But making the decision for a child to practice aikido is not a form of manipulation? Why not soccer? or baseball? Knitting? When I talk to parents, they ultimately make the decision to enroll a child in aikido; predominantly, this decision is made because the parent believes enrollment is in the best interest of the child.

We grant authority to manipulate others when we feel that authority will better serve us. Adults have authority over children, police have authority over civilians, etc. This authority is granted, that implies we do hold some power to choose who can affect us. Some of us are better or worse at granting authority, for a myriad of reasons. Ultimately, we are all susceptible to some form of manipulation - that is why Super Bowl ads cost like $1,000,000/minute or something crazy...
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