Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-03-2012, 12:22 PM   #126
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Lovely saying...and it is not my own. It's from a Chinese grandmaster who taught in Japan for 11 years. Including two of Sagawa's students.

Many people in Japan talked to me about Ki.
When asked "Where is yin? Where is yang?
Many.....failed.
So where then, is this Ai-ki?
You cannot pretend Dantian
You will be found out.


The quandary for most is that
You cannot be soft
Without being strong
How can this be?
How is it done?
I say the answer lies in
"Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me."
Ueshiba knew that and cited that...Heaven/earth/man...released the mountain echo.
A body so tough and resilient that the opponent...bounced...or echoed off.
He was famous for it?

For those taking part in his lineage....
How did he do it?
What did he mean?
Why does it have immeasurable value in producing aiki?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-03-2012 at 12:25 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 12:58 PM   #127
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Graham
Some thoughts.....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Most times I use words that do mean what they say and not what others think they mean too.
I am sure that the words you use are clear to you......though many of them have multiple meanings depending upon the context in which they are framed and the environment they describe. That is ok because I have to use them framed in my environment and context.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Dan's types of questions he poses are standard procedure in my way of Aikido. Thus I don't think it's down to culture or hiding things but more down to enquiry on both sides of the coin, teacher and student.
Much of what I was shown and taught comes from the same line as yours, so we have similar starting point. As for the drills and tests taught back then......I am just now getting the substance to place on the frame work. I have gotten bits and pieces from a number of people over the years and I struggled to incorporate these clues into a patchwork of this and thats. It is only been lately that with the help of friends like John Clodig and Dan Hardin that I have kind of reached a tipping point and can make some sense of out the drills we got 35 years ago. And in looking back it is clear to me that we were not given all of the tools...and people were asking then...... so the question remains.....did these teacher know the answers and not pass the information on or did they them selves not know..... You decide.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Unfortunately there is not enough and that has always been the case.
I think the approach here should be inquiry between peers.....then both the teacher and the student...all teachers and students...benefit. I don't see enough of this.

as always

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 01:48 PM   #128
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
Some thoughts.....

I am sure that the words you use are clear to you......though many of them have multiple meanings depending upon the context in which they are framed and the environment they describe. That is ok because I have to use them framed in my environment and context.

Much of what I was shown and taught comes from the same line as yours, so we have similar starting point. As for the drills and tests taught back then......I am just now getting the substance to place on the frame work. I have gotten bits and pieces from a number of people over the years and I struggled to incorporate these clues into a patchwork of this and thats. It is only been lately that with the help of friends like John Clodig and Dan Hardin that I have kind of reached a tipping point and can make some sense of out the drills we got 35 years ago. And in looking back it is clear to me that we were not given all of the tools...and people were asking then...... so the question remains.....did these teacher know the answers and not pass the information on or did they them selves not know..... You decide.

I think the approach here should be inquiry between peers.....then both the teacher and the student...all teachers and students...benefit. I don't see enough of this.

as always

Gary
Hi Gary.
Interesting that you point out your history for I understand it only too well.

Most times, and I mean most, on meeting other Aikidoka or other martial artists over the years they too had little reality on Ki and non-resistance and how and why. Having learned apparently differently to them I therefor put it down to bad teaching for many years. Now however I would say it's a matter of both sides of the coin both teacher and student. Students may say they were never taught and teachers may say such students would never study enough.

However each case is different. A person can know and demonstrate and yet not be so good at getting it across to others. So in this case it's not a matter of not knowing the answers but more of not knowing the differences in the different students and how to get them from their point to the desired point. On the other hand a student may not want to do the things the teacher says because they are in a hurry or many other reasons. Either way it slows progress. Many reasons for how things get lost and omitted.

peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 04:39 PM   #129
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Gary.
Interesting that you point out your history for I understand it only too well.

Most times, and I mean most, on meeting other Aikidoka or other martial artists over the years they too had little reality on Ki and non-resistance and how and why. Having learned apparently differently to them I therefor put it down to bad teaching for many years. Now however I would say it's a matter of both sides of the coin both teacher and student. Students may say they were never taught and teachers may say such students would never study enough.

However each case is different. A person can know and demonstrate and yet not be so good at getting it across to others. So in this case it's not a matter of not knowing the answers but more of not knowing the differences in the different students and how to get them from their point to the desired point. On the other hand a student may not want to do the things the teacher says because they are in a hurry or many other reasons. Either way it slows progress. Many reasons for how things get lost and omitted.

peace.G.
Graham
I think you misunderstand me......I said we had the same beginnings, but we don't have the same realities. I am real clear on what was being taught at the time by the source instructors, I know folks who had close ties (in the 70's) with Tohei Sensei, who had long talks and discussions with him...we didn't get more than preliminary understandings and thought that was enough. The question still has to be answered as to what these teachers actually knew and were willing to pass along....or....what they didn't know to start with.

It has only been recently that there has been enough cross training with folks in parts of both Japanese and Chinese martial arts, arts with established applications of internal training with IP/IS, other folks who can actually translate, who have access to written documents that we can even question what we were originally given, Questions that even though only partially answered so far add doorways to reaching depth and substance were maybe only a framework existed before.

I am not asking you to accept what I see as reality, and I am surely not going to try to change what you see as real.....just telling you how it is for me.

as always
Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 06:22 PM   #130
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
I think you misunderstand me......I said we had the same beginnings, but we don't have the same realities. I am real clear on what was being taught at the time by the source instructors, I know folks who had close ties (in the 70's) with Tohei Sensei, who had long talks and discussions with him...we didn't get more than preliminary understandings and thought that was enough. The question still has to be answered as to what these teachers actually knew and were willing to pass along....or....what they didn't know to start with.

It has only been recently that there has been enough cross training with folks in parts of both Japanese and Chinese martial arts, arts with established applications of internal training with IP/IS, other folks who can actually translate, who have access to written documents that we can even question what we were originally given, Questions that even though only partially answered so far add doorways to reaching depth and substance were maybe only a framework existed before.

I am not asking you to accept what I see as reality, and I am surely not going to try to change what you see as real.....just telling you how it is for me.

as always
Gary
Well put. I do understand where you are coming from and I do understand what your reality is.

Actually I do accept what you see as reality why shouldn't I? I accept it, I see it, I recognise it, I understand it. The only question is whether I fully agree with it.

In my world disagreement doesn't equal against.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 07:25 AM   #131
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Lovely saying...and it is not my own. It's from a Chinese grandmaster who taught in Japan for 11 years. Including two of Sagawa's students.

Many people in Japan talked to me about Ki.
When asked "Where is yin? Where is yang?
Many.....failed.
So where then, is this Ai-ki?
You cannot pretend Dantian
You will be found out.


The quandary for most is that
You cannot be soft
Without being strong
How can this be?
How is it done?
I say the answer lies in
"Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me."
Ueshiba knew that and cited that...Heaven/earth/man...released the mountain echo.
A body so tough and resilient that the opponent...bounced...or echoed off.
He was famous for it?

For those taking part in his lineage....
How did he do it?
What did he mean?
Why does it have immeasurable value in producing aiki?
Dan
I would say yin and yang come from one point. They are one, inside and outside.

Anything in me exists before between me and thee so obviously that would apply to Aiki or anything else so I fail to see any other significance to the statement if there is any.

Don't know what the significance of bouncing off is apart from a skill based on stillness. Hardly all embracing Ai ki as I see it. Part of maybe but wholly? No, not to me.

Valuable? Yes. Limited as far as Aikido potential? Depends solely on your intention and purpose.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 01:11 PM   #132
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 193
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

I would say yin and yang come from one point. They are one, inside and outside.

Anything in me exists before between me and thee so obviously that would apply to Aiki or anything else so I fail to see any other significance to the statement if there is any.

Don't know what the significance of bouncing off is apart from a skill based on stillness. Hardly all embracing Ai ki as I see it. Part of maybe but wholly? No, not to me.

Valuable? Yes. Limited as far as Aikido potential? Depends solely on your intention and purpose.

Peace.G.
This would help with all the above conjecture and missing information:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21690
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 02:27 PM   #133
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
This would help with all the above conjecture and missing information:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21690
Conjecture to you my friend.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 08:45 PM   #134
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I would say yin and yang come from one point. They are one, inside and outside.

Anything in me exists before between me and thee so obviously that would apply to Aiki or anything else so I fail to see any other significance to the statement if there is any.

Don't know what the significance of bouncing off is apart from a skill based on stillness. Hardly all embracing Ai ki as I see it. Part of maybe but wholly? No, not to me.

Valuable? Yes. Limited as far as Aikido potential? Depends solely on your intention and purpose.

Peace.G.
There really is no debate. The one point model for yin and yang is severely limiting. This is -of course- why Ueshiba hardly discussed it at all. The things he actually discussed were far more advanced and more difficult to do.
As for power and bouncing off "releasing the mountain echo?" Well...why was it so desperately significant....that Ueshiba continued to practice it and demonstrate the very thing you just dismissed....... his entire life.
As I said there really is no debate; he did what he did, he said what he said, and it all fits nicely into the same model that has been written and passed down for ages.
I guess another interesting debate point is who can do what he did? And to what degree of success?
Maybe the ones who have more of his power and softness are the ones who understand more of his message.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-05-2012 at 08:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ueshiba's Aiki Chris Knight General 624 11-20-2011 08:35 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 17 Peter Goldsbury Columns 41 06-03-2010 10:46 PM
How To Teach Power & Harmony? Erick Mead Teaching 23 08-28-2009 10:04 PM
Controlling Violence Without Harm [was: Using Daito Ryu's Aiki Without Harm] clwk Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 119 07-16-2008 04:42 PM
Video of Seichiro Endo Shihan grondahl General 114 10-19-2006 10:29 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:47 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate