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Old 08-29-2012, 12:46 PM   #101
DH
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Another interesting tidbit.
Once your soft power is developed-it can actually *prevent" you from forming a waza.
Why?
Why is it good?
How do you fix/manage that so you can govern yourself/ them/ and the waza shape and direction.
How then does soft power create and control connection?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-29-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:59 PM   #102
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Once your soft power is developed-it can actually *prevent" you from forming a waza.
Why?
Why is it good?
How do you fix/manage that so you can govern yourself/ them/ and the waza shape and direction.
How then does soft power create and control connection?
Please define "soft power." Also, when you say that soft power, once developed, "can actually *prevent" you from forming a waza," do you mean it can prevent the holder of the soft power from forming a waza, or the person who is trying to do the waza to the holder from forming a waza?

Inquiring minds, etc.

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:59 PM   #103
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Another interesting tidbit.
Once your soft power is developed-it can actually *prevent" you from forming a waza.
Why?
Why is it good?
How do you fix/manage that so you can govern yourself/ them/ and the waza shape and direction.
How then does soft power create and control connection?
Dan
prevent? Do you mean as in doing a specific technique?
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:25 PM   #104
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Another interesting tidbit.
Once your soft power is developed-it can actually *prevent" you from forming a waza.
Why?
Why is it good?
How do you fix/manage that so you can govern yourself/ them/ and the waza shape and direction.
How then does soft power create and control connection?
Dan
i am waiting for the answers for those questions. you are planning to supply them, right? you don't expect me to come up with answers, do you? i am of the school "he who asks questions provides answers."

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:29 PM   #105
lars beyer
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Reading this thread and others I have noticed that nobody hardly speaks about Kokyu and since kokyu
was something Oīsensei talked about a lot I believe it is closely related to internal training/ internal power ?
Any takes on how Kokyu is manifested in the context of the internal power / internal training subject ?
Is Kokyo related to waza or is it connected to internal training, or both ?

?
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:59 PM   #106
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Reading this thread and others I have noticed that nobody hardly speaks about Kokyu and since kokyu
was something Oīsensei talked about a lot I believe it is closely related to internal training/ internal power ?
Any takes on how Kokyu is manifested in the context of the internal power / internal training subject ?
Is Kokyo related to waza or is it connected to internal training, or both ?

?
There you go just stirring the pot - you know, of course, that kokyu has as many diverse meanings within the budo community as does KI and Aiki

Greg
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:10 PM   #107
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
There you go just stirring the pot - you know, of course, that kokyu has as many diverse meanings within the budo community as does KI and Aiki

Greg
Yes, offcourse, and itīs related to the subject of this thread I feel. I donīt know much about Internal training like Danīs, but from my perception of the concept of Kokyo, I hardly know how to express it in words actually, still I hear things in the IT / IP threads I recognise intuitively.
But offcourse maybe I should have left it alone, but then again that could be said of almost everything
discussed in this forum.
Offcourse we donīt agree on everything. Why should we ? And like everybody else I am looking for answers.

Last edited by lars beyer : 08-29-2012 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Explain my position
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:23 PM   #108
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Yes, offcourse, and itīs related to the subject of this thread I feel. I donīt know much about Internal training like Danīs, but from my perception of the concept of Kokyo, I hardly know how to express it in words actually, still I hear things in the IT / IP threads I recognise intuitively.
But offcourse maybe I should have left it alone, but then again that could be said of almost everything
discussed in this forum.
Offcourse we donīt agree on everything. Why should we ? And like everybody else I am looking for answers.
Was not trying to discourage anything here, just making a tongue-in-cheek remark that the injection of kokyu here could just add to the confusion some already have because of its diverse attributes associated with the topic points - but hey, you are right, why worry about it when that is apparently the norm here most of the time

Oh, and I am not focusing on you ( or anyone else) in any manner, I just picked a couple of your posts to use as a spring board into the thread

Greg
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:29 PM   #109
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Was not trying to discourage anything here, just making a tongue-in-cheek remark that the injection of kokyu here could just add to the confusion some already have because of its diverse attributes associated with the topic points - but hey, you are right, why worry about it when that is apparently the norm here most of the time

Oh, and I am not focusing on you ( or anyone else) in any manner, I just picked a couple of your posts to use as a spring board into the thread

Greg
Yes, I get your point, maybe itīs confusingly relevant... and should have been another topic.
No problemo Your welcome !
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:38 PM   #110
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Drifts in a warn sea, dreams the dreams, feels only the soft currents and occasionally the tides.......

The moonlight reflects the silver sides as bubbles curtain a turning path........

From down below, rise hell's deadly foe, the alarm clock rings the Monday's dawn......

Gary
Now that's class! Good on ya....

Peace.G.
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:40 PM   #111
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Another interesting tidbit.
Once your soft power is developed-it can actually *prevent" you from forming a waza.
Why?
Why is it good?
How do you fix/manage that so you can govern yourself/ them/ and the waza shape and direction.
How then does soft power create and control connection?
Dan
Interesting.

I would say soft power is waza. Can you feel it?

Peace.G.
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:44 PM   #112
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Yes, I get your point, maybe itīs confusingly relevant... and should have been another topic.
No problemo Your welcome !
I meant another thread, not another topic offcourse !
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:28 PM   #113
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
prevent? Do you mean as in doing a specific technique?
At a point your power is disruptive and your hands do everything you need without much overt body movement. If you were trying to make a waza "shape" you would have to withdraw power to fit the shape, otherwise you would just control them and ruin the "shape" of a technique.

The same thing applies to weapons kata. When they touch your sword-their hitting transparent power-the ground is present in the weapon and a movement will launch them or cast their weapon without much effort. In and of itself it is disruptive to kata.
Dan
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:31 PM   #114
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Reading this thread and others I have noticed that nobody hardly speaks about Kokyu and since kokyu
was something Oīsensei talked about a lot I believe it is closely related to internal training/ internal power ?
Any takes on how Kokyu is manifested in the context of the internal power / internal training subject ?
Is Kokyo related to waza or is it connected to internal training, or both ?

?
Kokyu is only -one- aspect. In and of itself it is not enough.
Dan
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:26 PM   #115
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
At a point your power is disruptive and your hands do everything you need without much overt body movement. If you were trying to make a waza "shape" you would have to withdraw power to fit the shape, otherwise you would just control them and ruin the "shape" of a technique.

The same thing applies to weapons kata. When they touch your sword-their hitting transparent power-the ground is present in the weapon and a movement will launch them or cast their weapon without much effort. In and of itself it is disruptive to kata.
Dan
Thanks Dan, that's what I thought you were getting at. I was going to say that when you get some measure of that soft power, you will probably already be seeing an end to techniques as they are typically performed. All of the things that the techniques are supposed to guide you to feel and achieve happen long before the end of the technique. When you're doing all the things in you that you should be doing, things happen that can't always be stuffed back into whatever technique your instructor has you doing and trying to do so becomes counter-productive to what made that all happen in the first place.

I have my thoughts of how that may or may not change when you have those skills on both sides. I think it could be a much more active thing and kaeshi, something I think most aikidoka consider "advanced", becomes the next logical step and the next thing that "just happens" as the result of what's going on in you. Unfortunately at this point it is just a thought though.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:40 PM   #116
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
We are always learning along a continuum - in any dojo there will be people who cannot throw me and people I cannot throw. So yeah, with a newbie, I actually keep my idealized ukemi a step ahead of their nagewaza and not only fall for them, but guide them through my body. Past that, my willingness to allow myself to be moved is based on starting the first time as uke with total cooperation, attacking to their center and then essentially allowing nage to lead as long as she has found some kind of connection to me (the kind being related to a sense of her skill level) and letting myself follow where her leading is taking me. If she disconnects I let her know and let her refind it rather than start over. With peers and seniors of course I expect more and don't simply follow nor do I resist statically if they mess up, but gently ramp up my own attack on their center to give feedback that can be used to self-correct.

I don't see my interactions at the dojo as "winning."

FWIW, there were a couple of dojos I was a member of that were not paragons of cooperation. They also were nothing about what you would call "aiki" - they were purely into the mechanics of imposing the asked for technique with lots of muscle power regardless of the form of uke's attack. So I don't have a very high opinion of non-cooperative training.
However my view is that within cooperation there can be, and should be, the contract between partners to test one's limits.

I believe it is Chuck Clark whose teaching is based on the principle that one should succeed 90% of the time in order to learn. I think this is true, whether the partner practice is slow and aiming for feeling connection or faster and working on the form of a specific technique - it is in the 10% failure that one learns what is needed in order to progress and in the 90% success that one starts building the incremental muscle memory (for lack of a better term) that drills the skill in.

I think part of the problem may be semantic. Bear w/ me for a moment on this: I have felt/seen two very different kinds of aikido, as have many of us: the "wow that was a strong throw that sent me across the dojo" and the "wow how the heck did I end up here". I think for many of us the goal is the more elusive, harder to find latter feeling.
I think we're saying essentially the same thing. Testing in a cooperative manner as a means to grow. Actually I think most people in all forms of Budo practice and think that way. It was how most of us learned. The differences seem to be where we go -from- there.
Do we stress test? This can some into play in any art.

Stress test #1:
So if we leave Ki or Aiki out of the equation, it becomes a question of how much stress or what are our goals in learning self defense or to fight. The levels of ukemi etc. Those goals are fairly straight forward, those debates have been had, and many have found their own solutions.
Stress test #2
With IP/aiki we have the same questions to ask. How much stress, when to we up it, and against who? I see it as a very straight forward model that fits into Aikido and any other art very well.
Quote:
So when you write of "center driven power to a level where few can stop you?" I have a feeling that however you may mean it, for many on Aikiweb this smacks of the style of aikido they have experienced (as I did in dojos like the couple I used to train at a long time ago) and are not interested in doing.
The culmination of attaining a level of power where few can stop you does not have to be a power play though is it? And it very much can lead and does lead to the "How the heck did that happen?" feeling. You know...the kind that leaves a smile on your face. That is the goal that most I know who pursue this work are finding fun and even amusing. I don't think anyone is seeing it as a sort of bully boy attitude. I know I don't. I see it as a heck of a lot of fun, and intriguing mind game and physical challenge that is very relaxing and mentally taxing.
I think walking away with a smile on our faces, and even laughing out loud while doing it beings a different definition to power.
I'll try to find it but a YiQuan teacher mentions much the same thing that Tohei did. THat when you practice this way and the opponent feel himself sent away, it leaves a look of surprise and wonder on their faces.
It sort of makes Ueshiba's model of making peace out of an enemy come to life again.
Dan
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:45 PM   #117
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Thanks Dan, that's what I thought you were getting at. I was going to say that when you get some measure of that soft power, you will probably already be seeing an end to techniques as they are typically performed. All of the things that the techniques are supposed to guide you to feel and achieve happen long before the end of the technique. When you're doing all the things in you that you should be doing, things happen that can't always be stuffed back into whatever technique your instructor has you doing and trying to do so becomes counter-productive to what made that all happen in the first place.

I have my thoughts of how that may or may not change when you have those skills on both sides. I think it could be a much more active thing and kaeshi, something I think most aikidoka consider "advanced", becomes the next logical step and the next thing that "just happens" as the result of what's going on in you. Unfortunately at this point it is just a thought though.
It sort of goes hand in hand to what Janet and I were saying. On the one hand you can build power and aiki to the point that waza becomes all but meaningless. That's the fun stuff for me. But what the heck does that mean -we have to all quit the arts we love??? Nope. We have to learn to taper and govern the output and make it softer still to perform. We still dominate and control or cooperate and play. But the question remains:
Is cooperation and playing the game (needed to make kata work) the end of our expertise? Or can we rise above to a higher level that is all but unstoppable and then still go back in and play in the same cooperative way?
I say "Yes, It can be done."
Both are achievable. I think it was what most of the greats were in fact doing. Particularly the ones who were unthrowable. Being that good, does not mean you stop being nice or taking ukemmi when you want to.

Everyone accepts a certain dynamic in a force-on-force training paradigm. Why not with ki or aiki?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-29-2012 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:47 PM   #118
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The culmination of attaining a level of power where few can stop you does not have to be a power play though is it? And it very much can lead and does lead to the "How the heck did that happen?" feeling.
Dan, I agree with you. And I have felt that kind of very soft but irresistible power from you and from a few other folks coming from different backgrounds.
My point was not that you or I believe differently from that but, again, pointing out that use of language, how things may be read here, may well be leading to misunderstandings: for many aikido folk who have felt the "hard" throwing, muscling power on the mat and have decided it isn't what they want, if those folk are not familiar w/ you or other folks doing internal training, they may likely read your use of the word power as synonymous with that approach because it is their only point of reference for "power" in an aikido context.

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:50 PM   #119
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think walking away with a smile on our faces, and even laughing out loud while doing it beings a different definition to power.
I'll try to find it but a YiQuan teacher mentions much the same thing that Tohei did. THat when you practice this way and the opponent feel himself sent away, it leaves a look of surprise and wonder on their faces.
It sort of makes Ueshiba's model of making peace out of an enemy come to life again.
Dan
There is nothing quite like hitting the floor and just busting out with laughter wondering how it happened. I think for many of us in aikido, regardless of background or "style", this is a huge part of what keeps us coming back for more. We know it's not "magical" but it still FEELS like it is when it happens.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:53 AM   #120
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Dan, I agree with you. And I have felt that kind of very soft but irresistible power from you and from a few other folks coming from different backgrounds.
My point was not that you or I believe differently from that but, again, pointing out that use of language, how things may be read here, may well be leading to misunderstandings: for many aikido folk who have felt the "hard" throwing, muscling power on the mat and have decided it isn't what they want, if those folk are not familiar w/ you or other folks doing internal training, they may likely read your use of the word power as synonymous with that approach because it is their only point of reference for "power" in an aikido context.
Hi kiddo
Good point. It's yet another reason that internet communication and trying to explain how things work becomes so difficult-yet in person things are much more clearly defined. In person everyone agrees center driven power is different than normal strength and feels different on contact.

No force
No force is my goal and it was the goal of many high level arts-Aikido included. Strangely, and worthy of note by virtually everyone in the deeper arts, is that most all of the high level arts had no force as a goal. And those arts??? All discussed building unusual strength, including Sagawa who was on about his "transparent power" or no force. The real hallmark was how to create a body driven by center that created a stunning "neutral force" and how that force dissolved the opponents directed force leading the engagement to zero wherever force from the opponent is applied.

It's a worthy discussion to debate/discover different uses of unusual strength and how it leads to NO FORCE, but a key component is the ability to dissolve their power and apply no force. And none of that is using muscle in the normal way.... to throw people. All of the deeper arts relied on internal power to create change (aiki) against the opponents will. Something which Ueshiba practiced, demonstrated and quoted throughout his career. Evading, by externally moving away from someone, as well as using the type of muscular strength in flexion everyone is well aware of, was not part of that paradigm. It certainly was not the type of thing that the great men were known for.

So the real discussion on the mat should be; what caused that "what the heck" moment?
Was it caused by timing?
External movement?
Use of a persons automatic responses (all present in good Jujutsu)
Again, it is worth noting that the greats never were much on talking a lot about such mundane things. They were pursuing something something truly different from the movements of normal people and quoting established principles for this higher level training.

Chasing the ability to create no force has an inherent requirement for strength. It's just not the type of strength that most people associate with normal strength. And THAT is why the Asians all talked about it and noted who was different. It is ...that strength...I am referring to and not the idea driving and pressuring a throw that all of us run into from time to time.
Dan
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:37 AM   #121
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

That's more like it.

Peace.G.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:02 AM   #122
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
That's more like it.

Peace.G.
I don't think Dan's been saying any different previously; I'm reading the same thing I think he's always saying, I guess it comes down to terminology and interpretation.

We all read things through a filter composed of our experiences and arrive at a conclusion based on those which can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings and seeming contradictions.

Sometimes when someone uses a word it doesn't mean what you (one) think it means.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:40 AM   #123
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

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Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I don't think Dan's been saying any different previously; I'm reading the same thing I think he's always saying, I guess it comes down to terminology and interpretation.

We all read things through a filter composed of our experiences and arrive at a conclusion based on those which can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings and seeming contradictions.

Sometimes when someone uses a word it doesn't mean what you (one) think it means.
Precisely
As Janet pointed out, some thought I meant rough housing and using strength to throw. Which is not what IP/aiki is about. Power? Yes, but on the other hand, it produces crazy, disruptive, neutralizing, softness along with that incredible power to break bones and do damage or be soft. The decision or choice is the adepts. More's the point it can happen instantly back and forth ats they are one and the same. The difference is ....velocity and not "Jacking up" like some gym rat.
If you think about it; that ability to go from neutralizing softness to increbible power in wierd positions and at rapid speed is one hell of a set of skills for any martial artist to posess.It's really no wonder why those who possessed those skills were sought after, and set apart from other martial artists and started traditions and lineages around their teachings.

At any rate, soft...has always been about power. Soft power as a teaching is old. My opinion, yours or anyone else's means nothing.
The requirements to produce no-force start with the ability to emit soft power; sustain load and resist pulls as one...without moving. The greater you are at that, the greater your ability to produce no-force. Hence the reason Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba, Shirata, Shioda, Tohei etc, demonstrated it all the time. It's why people went on and on About Takeda and Ueshiba being "so strong."

What I find interesting is that we are all a part of that tradition, but don't demonstrate the same skills. I've wondered why that happened?
That central power, is THEE Ki power everyone is on about and what all the big shots were famous for. It spans time and cultures. It's one of the ways they divided the internal from external arts, or the courser arts from the deeper ones. Interestingly enough it is also one of the hallmarks of the esoteric pursuits and why monks and others who trained in certain temples were known for soft power.

Interestingly my signature line is from one of the giants of Aikido. Notice the first line? The immovable body? It is a requirement. It is NOT about standing still but of a central power that produces speed and wierd advantages due to connected movement,
The next line is a strategy partially produced from the the first ability.
The next line is what connected non-dedicated skills feel like; blinding strikes, and movements.
The last is the result of high level work.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-03-2012 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:57 AM   #124
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Soft power that produces strategy and dominating ability to neutralize agression....all as one...through aiki.
Dan
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:36 AM   #125
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Re: Ki and power and cooperation

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I don't think Dan's been saying any different previously; I'm reading the same thing I think he's always saying, I guess it comes down to terminology and interpretation.

We all read things through a filter composed of our experiences and arrive at a conclusion based on those which can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings and seeming contradictions.

Sometimes when someone uses a word it doesn't mean what you (one) think it means.
Most times I use words that do mean what they say and not what others think they mean too.

Dan's types of questions he poses are standard procedure in my way of Aikido. Thus I don't think it's down to culture or hiding things but more down to enquiry on both sides of the coin, teacher and student.

Unfortunately there is not enough and that has always been the case.

Peace.G.
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